UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

How do you intend to vote in the 2019 General Election if eligible?

  • Brexit Party

    Votes: 30 4.3%

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 73 10.6%

  • DUP

    Votes: 5 0.7%

  • Green

    Votes: 23 3.3%

  • Labour

    Votes: 355 51.4%

  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 58 8.4%

  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 0.4%

  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 9 1.3%

  • SNP

    Votes: 19 2.8%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 6 0.9%

  • Independent

    Votes: 1 0.1%

  • Other (BNP, Change UK, UUP and anyone else that I have forgotten)

    Votes: 10 1.4%

  • Not voting

    Votes: 57 8.3%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 41 5.9%
  • Total voters
    690
  • Poll closed .
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Raven said:
I understand that it isn't a single issue. Austerity has killed thousands, that is a fact. For me, continued austerity is a red line because it is almost guaranteed to kill thousands more. If it's not a red line for you, that's your own decision. The conversation, if you recall, started by talking about those protesters rights to protest. Fiskey telling me there is no place for that sort of protest, me taking up the position that if there are policies killing others, they should be commended for protesting.
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Of course there is room and a right to protest. I didn’t pick up on that. However, I do object (perhaps protest...) against the knee jerk reactions or labelling of people because of the way they vote.

If we go back to Brexit, I deplore anyone who thinks that either 48% or 52% of the country are idiots/uneducated/evil/ etc etc it’s ridiculous.
 
Raven said:
This is more what I was getting at. My grand parents both vote Tory, they're two of the best people I know, unfortunately they read the DM.
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These are the people on the middle ground that could have been pulled over to labour - but the labelling of such Tories as cnuts etc by the left is not going to get to to vote hand in hand with said people is it? That’s my big issue.

would be better for the country if both main parties were not leaning to the left and right, but towards the middle.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Also, accusing someone who has fought against racism his entire political career of being racist or personally advocating racist ideals in his party is a pretty fecking big claim to make.
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Fluctuation0161 said:
Imagine a man who has campaigned against racism all of his life being called a racist. By racists in opposition.
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Oo0AahCantona said:
this is basically the end of the conversation.
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That's indeed often the end of any conversation, which I see as pretty disastrous. If there's supposed to be a chance to improve the situation, this is one of the issues the conversation would have to start with. The implication here is that - since antisemitism is often subsumed under racism - awareness of racism and opposition to racism in general would be sufficient as an antidote against antisemitism. And I think that's false.

While they're not unrelated, there are also fundamental differences between antisemitism and racism, and imo they must be treated as distinct ideologies. They offer false explanations for different aspects of modern society, and - depending on their political embedding - promise different kinds of salvation. That's the reason why someone can be an opponent of racism (and to discrimination against Jews along these lines), but still oblivious of other forms of real-life antisemitism, or still prone to certain (proto-)antisemitic ideologies. Just as an awareness of antisemitism doesn't make oneself immune against xenophobia and racism, or the political ideologies typically aligned with them.
 
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villain said:


:lol:

Same tactics used in the America, wouldn't be surprised if it's the same people involved too.
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Doesn't surprise me. Both sides' target audience all have a few things in common that make them the perfect target.
 
Kaos said:
It’s not just been her though. You’d have every right to blame the referee if he started doctoring VAR footage to benefit one side. Kuenssberg’s been the absolute worst offender but the rest of the BBC have hardly come out of this election without questionable incident.
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Possibly, but then again people who blame the referee for every decision that goes against them never admit to being people that blame the referee for every decision that goes against them do they? They're just right every time, that's not their fault.

Anecdotal, but my Tory relatives hate the BBC with a vengeance, far more than I suspect you do, they're totally convinced it's full of left wingers from top to bottom.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Of course there is room and a right to protest. I didn’t pick up on that. However, I do object (perhaps protest...) against the knee jerk reactions or labelling of people because of the way they vote.

If we go back to Brexit, I deplore anyone who thinks that either 48% or 52% of the country are idiots/uneducated/evil/ etc etc it’s ridiculous.
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As I've mentioned in a post above, I'm not so much calling all Tory voters evil. Tory voters who are politically engaged enough to come onto forums and discuss policies and news and knowingly vote to continue policies that have killed so many, there certainly is a question of morality. At that stage they are knowingly voting in their own self interest against the lives of thousands of others.

Stalin had plenty of good policies, as did Hitler, as did Mao and the list goes on. With the power of hindsight, you couldn't possibly help getting any of those into power because they had evil policies that killed people, regardless of the good they did for the majority of the population. I know these are far more extreme examples but all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing and by voting Tory, you're doing worse than nothing.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
These are the people on the middle ground that could have been pulled over to labour - but the labelling of such Tories as cnuts etc by the left is not going to get to to vote hand in hand with said people is it? That’s my big issue.

would be better for the country if both main parties were not leaning to the left and right, but towards the middle.
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Ahh yes, the enlightened centrist...
 
711 said:
Possibly, but then again people who blame the referee for every decision that goes against them never admit to being people that blame the referee for every decision that goes against them do they? They're just right every time, that's not their fault.

Anecdotal, but my Tory relatives hate the BBC with a vengeance, far more than I suspect you do, they're totally convinced it's full of left wingers from top to bottom.
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I'd be willing to bet that if you asked them for an example the first name out of their lips would be Gary Lineker.
 
hobbers said:
The way Corbyn fans talk about the BBC always puts me in mind of BlueMoon and their perpetual hysteria about the FA.
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I think one of the problems with the BBC is people forget how large and wide-ranging it is as an organisation for delivering news alone. Its scope is ridiculous compared to even the biggest newspapers - it's got multiple news programmes, a 24-hour channel, regional news channels, and a whole online setup which also has its own regional sections, covering an extraordinary breadth of topics. And in that regard I think it's important to remember that while the BBC feck up quite often and can be frustrating, there are a lot of very good journalists working there who do some excellent work.

Their coverage during this election has been fairly crap, tbh, and their gambit that Boris might be nice to them if they're not too critical of him is clearly a stupid one, but I don't think that means we should tear down the system as a whole.

Also worth noting that a lot of the current criticisms of the BBC are far from new. It's often been an easy government target when they're looking to deflect criticism from themselves, and a lot of powerful figures in the BBC have often been reluctant to hit back at the government of the day as a result. The narrative of its decline, in that regard, is one I'm not sure I buy into.
 
Pink Moon said:
I'd be willing to bet that if you asked them for an example the first name out of their lips would be Gary Lineker.
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That's them showing a terrible knowledge of football, he was a striker...
 
711 said:
Possibly, but then again people who blame the referee for every decision that goes against them never admit to being people that blame the referee for every decision that goes against them do they? They're just right every time, that's not their fault.

Anecdotal, but my Tory relatives hate the BBC with a vengeance, far more than I suspect you do, they're totally convinced it's full of left wingers from top to bottom.
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I suspect that's more of a reflection of the drama/comedy arm of the BBC than the news though. My partners in laws are the same. They're threatening to boycott Strictly if they ever have same sex couples dancing together. Deplorable old boomers they are. Bet you can't guess who they're voting for...?
 
CassiusClaymore said:
I suspect that's more of a reflection of the drama/comedy arm of the BBC than the news though. My partners in laws are the same. They're threatening to boycott Strictly if they ever have same sex couples dancing together. Deplorable old boomers they are. Bet you can't guess who they're voting for...?
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Tiny Tim Farron? :wenger:
 
Raven said:
Ahh yes, the enlightened centrist...
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But the majority of the UK is centrist. ' We are far more united than the things that divide us' as said by the late Labour MP whom we Tories are unfit to mention by name.

All of us want to live in a country that provides opportunity and a fair crack for everyone. We all want good services and for poverty to be eliminated. We just don't believe that you need to resort to Marxism to get there.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
What does this mean?
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Trying to set yourself aside from the madness by saying that the only sensible position is the centre.
Honest John said:
But the majority of the UK is centrist. ' We are far more united than the things that divide us' as said by the late Labour MP whom we Tories are unfit to mention by name.

All of us want to live in a country that provides opportunity and a fair crack for everyone. We all want good services and for poverty to be eliminated. We just don't believe that you need to resort to Marxism to get there.
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I assume that you're referring to the Labour party when you say Marxism? In reality, their vision is more centre left.
 
The ultimate centrist dream ticket

300px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-H27337%2C_Moskau%2C_Stalin_und_Ribbentrop_im_Kreml.jpg
 
Maticmaker said:
So who did take the photograph, and why did they share it, and with whom???

I cannot imagine the lads family would want it for the family album, or send it to the newspapers/media, maybe the hospital wanted it for their next glossy brochure showing how poorly they treat their younger patients.

Underfunding of the NHS we know is a given, extended patient waiting times/list are also something now reaching epidemic proportions, that is why all parties in the GE are promising more money. However, it is surely not right to leave a child who is ill, on the floor, a chair or a trolley, or even a bench surely could be found? Its even worse still to compound the situation by taking a photograph of him in that desperate situation... unless of course you have ulterior motives, especially around election time.
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I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, as the alternative is something that goes against the ethos of the forum, and suggest you are being deliberately disingenuous.

I'd imagine the person who took it was the child's parent. I'd imagine they took it as proof of the situation they were left in. I'd have thought that in that situation, the last thing they were thinking of was helping anyone's election campaign. And I know the reason that he is on the floor is because the child just wanted to lie down, as this is what the parents have already stated.

You carry on with your daft conspiracy theory though, have fun.
 
Raven said:
Trying to set yourself aside from the madness by saying that the only sensible position is the centre.

I assume that you're referring to the Labour party when you say Marxism? In reality, their vision is more centre left.
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how am I trying to set myself from the madness as you say? I think it’s clear as day if both parties were more centralist then we would be better off. I have also said, given the options we are presented with then Labour would be worse than the Tories.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
These are the people on the middle ground that could have been pulled over to labour - but the labelling of such Tories as cnuts etc by the left is not going to get to to vote hand in hand with said people is it? That’s my big issue.

would be better for the country if both main parties were not leaning to the left and right, but towards the middle.
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I can't understand this. Do 'centrists' not realise that is their politics which have caused the rise of the left and right? It's a direct response to the economic failure of centrist Governments over the last decade that have led to the inequality and anger that we see now. It's why people voted for Brexit... it's why Trump got voted in too.

So it just doesn't ring true when people talk about the centre ground as if it's some sort of cure to the ills of modern society... when in reality, it's centrist Governments that have caused them. At least when I look at Labour's policy platform I can see that they want to do something more radically different. "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”
 
Sassy Colin said:
Ironic, considering it was exactly the sort of Labour supporting people posting in this thread that got them into power in the first place.
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It's not so much ironic as it's a good part of the reason we're in the situation we currently are. Traditional socialist labour voters were disenfranchised by the New Labour MPs and policies. So we swung the other way, gravitating towards the left with Corbyn... Which then disenfranchised the people who preferred a more centrist Labour Party. With the Tories moving further to the right at the same time, we're in a horrible political climate.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
how am I trying to set myself from the madness as you say? I think it’s clear as day if both parties were more centralist then we would be better off. I have also said, given the options we are presented with then Labour would be worse than the Tories.
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I would argue that Labour are centre left. As has been shown on a graph on one of the previous pages here, it wouldn't even put the UK as one the top spender on services in the EU.
 
Honest John said:
But the majority of the UK is centrist. ' We are far more united than the things that divide us' as said by the late Labour MP whom we Tories are unfit to mention by name.

All of us want to live in a country that provides opportunity and a fair crack for everyone. We all want good services and for poverty to be eliminated. We just don't believe that you need to resort to Marxism to get there.
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Practically nobody does. It's a pathetic insult slung at people who believe in a fairer system.
 
esmufc07 said:
He is allowed, and members of the public are allowed to protest. They really didn't say anything too abusive. It was really very British.
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This was my take on it. It was very British. I imagine it was uncomfortable but comes with the territory and I don't suspect for a second that Hancock anticipated anything different.

villain said:


:lol:

Same tactics used in the America, wouldn't be surprised if it's the same people involved too.
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I listened to something on the radio a few weeks ago that said there are facebook groups full of people that act in a co-ordinated way so as to give off the impression they're bots purely to wind up lefties. They also said that there are similar groups of lefties that do it back to wind up everyone on the right. The result being that it's hard to tell what is real and what isn't!

hobbers said:
The way Corbyn fans talk about the BBC always puts me in mind of BlueMoon and their perpetual hysteria about the FA.
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There is plenty of faux outrage on socials about the BBC, but they've had an absolute stinker covering the election. I've noticed some broadcasters and journalists giving Tories a fair good go recently, including Nick Robinson on Justice Sec Robert Buckland this morning who got torn a new one. It's definitely not balanced however you look at it, but it's a big old beast with thousands of genuine people doing an honest days work there which cop for it, unfairly so.

Honest John said:
But the majority of the UK is centrist. ' We are far more united than the things that divide us' as said by the late Labour MP whom we Tories are unfit to mention by name.

All of us want to live in a country that provides opportunity and a fair crack for everyone. We all want good services and for poverty to be eliminated. We just don't believe that you need to resort to Marxism to get there.
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So, given the vast inequality, Trussel Trust handing out 1.6million foodbank parcels in the 18-19 year, public service cuts etc, I think we can agree that we aren't quite there yet, right? So, you must be confident on the Tories ability to reform or turn it around if you're sticking where your flag is planted. What is it that's giving you that confidence?
 
Ady87 said:
I listened to something on the radio a few weeks ago that said there are facebook groups full of people that act in a co-ordinated way so as to give off the impression they're bots purely to wind up lefties. They also said that there are similar groups of lefties that do it back to wind up everyone on the right. The result being that it's hard to tell what is real and what isn't!
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Yep those particular ones are just the tip of the iceberg.

There's lots of proof of 'bot' farms that are coded to tweet, like & RT content to improve impressions - therefore increase the visibility of whatever tweets are being sent so that millions of people will see it on twitter, and many more will be sent screenshots on facebook, whatsapp, emails etc
https://www.vox.com/2018/10/19/17990946/twitter-russian-trolls-bots-election-tampering

Redlambs said:
Anyone can do that, and they do. It's really not difficult.
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It's not about difficulty, it's about disingenuity and altering perception to the point where you need to question pretty much any news you consume. Even experienced journalists are falling victim.
 
decorativeed said:
Practically nobody does. It's a pathetic insult slung at people who believe in a fairer system.
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It's pretty much the same as in the USA where everything the Democrats want to do is labelled socialism by the Republicans. It's just aimed at making people fear the other side are about to do bad things.
 
Fiskey said:
The guy is speaking to him directly seconds before, saying "You look after these people? They've absolutely devastated our country", and then starts shouting again.

I would definitely feel threatened.
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This is barmy.

Are we really living in a time where senior government ministers and aides feel threatened by a small-scale completely peaceful protest outside a hospital?

The only threatening here is the threat posed to our NHS, our most vulnerable citizens, our economic stability and indeed our chances of decent survival as a species in the face of the global climate crisis caused by 5 more years of this government being returned with a big majority on Friday.

A government prepared to sell our NHS is threatening. A government engaging in dog-whistle politics to empower racists and the far right is threatening. The 'hostile environment' and 'go home' vans are threatening. The incident in the video is just a day in the life of a cabinet minister.
 
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