UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[Buster15]

Yes in 1997 and 2001.

labour were as aspirational party, appealing to middle England at that time. That’s how you win a GE, not by being led by Momentum and the Unions.

the vast majority of labour MPs have no faith in his leadership or policies. Thesame is no doubt true about the Tories (which as I’ve said is a weak government), if you had a progressive leader like David Milliband leading the party, or even (I know he’s no longer an MP, but he was a far better choice than his brother. David has the popular vote, but it was the Unions that elected his brother). A trusted old head like Hilary Benn would win a GE against Boris - I’ve no doubt.

I would never vote for a failed idiology, re-nationalisation, and dis-aspirational Britain.

Corbyn’s utter lack of leadership on Brexit is astonishing and wholly unbelievable. No one believes he can renegotiate a completely different deal with the EU as a party that doesn’t even know whether they want to remain or leave. The Tory negotiations have been a joke, this is just absurd.

Completely agree with all of this including the point about David Milliband.
And you are quite right about H. Benn.
But hey. Momentum wanted a puppet leader so they could move Labour to the left. And loosing my vote and yet another election will be the outcome.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I am not arguing for the sake of it - you are seeing what you want to see and it is definitely not BRINO and as I said if it was the referendum between those two it would be ridiculous. I really don't see how anyone thinks the Labour proposal is remotely possible, it's complete and utter nonsense.

Companies will invest in the country if they think it's worth their while. If the rules and laws are too onerous they will act accordingly. How much money do you seriously think Corbyn will get out of Google, even if they paid taking their turnover and and assumed profit into account, it's still only millions per year not billions. It's so naïve.

The pension had been discussed for 18 months but they suddenly announce it two days after the manifesto costing, you don't smell a rat. No this was not what I was referring to originally.
Maybe the marriage allowance is out of date but those who will pay for it will be members of the 95% not the 5% which is not what Labour said.

When the plans don't work and the money expected doesn't arrive, who's going to pay for it then and whatever happens after Brexit , even a BRINO, who's going to pay for it then.

It's not a question of not wanting people to be better off, it's a question of the plan going disastrously wrong and the people who are badly off, being even worse off, in effect everyone being worse off except the very rich who will survive whatever the policies are .

Going after Google and American tech companies unilaterally would be exceptionally stupid. The US will not be happy about the UK taxing American companies, especially if Trump is in charge. Given they're our most important trading partner they have a lot of power to punish us economically. If Corbyn did get elected he'll quickly realise that real governance is not as easy as he seems to think it is.

I did wonder on the manifesto if a lot of his nationalisation plans are even permitted under EU law with a customs union or in the event of remaining?

 

[sun_tzu]

.
Nicola Sturgeon earlier said scrapping Trident would be a red line for her party to support a Labour government in the event of a hung Parliament.
However, the Labour manifesto includes a pledge to renew Trident.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50536460


Interesting... Could see a lot of labour MPs saying they were elected on a manifesto to keep trident

Not that I expect it's going to come into play anyway but a multiparty coalition would be very difficult to hold together

 

[sun_tzu]

I did wonder on the manifesto if a lot of his nationalisation plans are even permitted under EU law with a customs union or in the event of remaining?

Yes but Corbyn is going to negotiate a magical customs union resplendent with unicorns and lots of cherry's on top for him to pick from... in 3 months remember....

 

[TwoSheds]

labour needs to appeal to the middle ground. That’s how labour wins a general election, that’s how Blair and Brown did it - that’s how you appeal to traditional Tort voters.

The Labour Party and Conservatives are both coalitions within themselves. Both have jolted from the middle, The ERG within the Torres has led to a more right wing approach and Momentum has led to a more left wing approach in Labour. A left wing, out of date way of thinking is never going to win a GE, in spite of having the weakest government in 40 years - speaks volumes of how ineffective Corbyn is.

mom another point the BBC is interesting, I see Labour and Tory voters both complaining about its neutrality.

Wrong. Milliband tried to appeal to the middle ground in 2015 but Murdoch backed the Tories and he got wiped out. And Brown didn't have the billionaires' support, he got slaughtered as well. Blair sold his soul to Murdoch et al which is why he won. But unless somebody could sell their soul for a lower price how could they win the billionaires' backing now?

The Tories are funded by Russian money (who back Brexit to cause political instability in Europe), by hedge funds (who back Brexit to make a shit load from shorting the pound and asset stripping UK firms) and by tax dodging media barons (who back Brexit because they like being the sole owners of the UK government). I take it you're advocating that a Labour leader should back a No Deal Brexit to appeal to these scum more than the Tories?

Or what would you do to get them onside?

The "middle ground" simply doesn't seem to appeal to anyone right now. The Lib Dems are supposed to be it but they support shrinking the state even further, they're actually economically very right wing. And lying shits of course too. The only way the Lib Dems have regained any support is by taking an extremist position on Brexit. When that's done, so are they.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Going after Google and American tech companies unilaterally would be exceptionally stupid. The US will not be happy about the UK taxing American companies, especially if Trump is in charge. Given they're our most important trading partner they have a lot of power to punish us economically. If Corbyn did get elected he'll quickly realise that real governance is not as easy as he seems to think it is.

I did wonder on the manifesto if a lot of his nationalisation plans are even permitted under EU law with a customs union or in the event of remaining?

Don't think Corbyn has thought further than "tax the rich" - that slogan will appeal to people.

So the UK are leaving the EU so they can do their own trade deals with other countries but couldn't because they would be in a customs union and Corbyn's determined to estrange the Uk's biggest single export destination other than the EU. They really have not thought this through.

The nationalisation won't work the way Corbyn seems to want to do it if they are still in the EU.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Why do the BBC keep putting themselves in this situation?

Probably because hardly anyone ever reports it and other outlets won't pick it up as a story.

The Beebs response to this was that they were saving time in the edit by removing the stuttering and the laughter...by then adding in applause. It's mental.

So that's it folks. Shows over. The Tory manifesto can literally just say "feck you" for 100 pages and be filled with dodgy estimated costs that various groups will claim are erroneous and it won't matter because at worst the news will report it as just being a "standard and safe manifesto".

 

[Sweet Square]

I love being a minority. A Tory supporting Brexit voter - bring on the abuse. But before you do, just consider the ridiculousness of branding someone racist/ uncaring/ poor hating bastard based on a binary vote in the referendum and the current climate where there is no credible opposition...

Personally I think it will be a hung parliament. I just cannot see such a big swing. Having said that, if you are an ardent leaver or an ardent remainer, and a traditional Labour voter what are you going to do? If labour had a competent leader they would have won the 2017 election, and would win this one.

The state of this post.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

I am not arguing for the sake of it - you are seeing what you want to see and it is definitely not BRINO and as I said if it was the referendum between those two it would be ridiculous. I really don't see how anyone thinks the Labour proposal is remotely possible, it's complete and utter nonsense.

Companies will invest in the country if they think it's worth their while. If the rules and laws are too onerous they will act accordingly. How much money do you seriously think Corbyn will get out of Google, even if they paid taking their turnover and and assumed profit into account, it's still only millions per year not billions. It's so naïve.

The pension had been discussed for 18 months but they suddenly announce it two days after the manifesto costing, you don't smell a rat. No this was not what I was referring to originally.
Maybe the marriage allowance is out of date but those who will pay for it will be members of the 95% not the 5% which is not what Labour said.

When the plans don't work and the money expected doesn't arrive, who's going to pay for it then and whatever happens after Brexit , even a BRINO, who's going to pay for it then.

It's not a question of not wanting people to be better off, it's a question of the plan going disastrously wrong and the people who are badly off, being even worse off, in effect everyone being worse off except the very rich who will survive whatever the policies are .

I think I’d rather take the risk and see if things improve rather than vote for guaranteed Brexit and another 5 years of guaranteed policies designed to choke public services and people on low or middle incomes. No less with a dangerous clown at the helm

 

[EwanI Ted]

Wrong. Milliband tried to appeal to the middle ground in 2015 but Murdoch backed the Tories and he got wiped out. And Brown didn't have the billionaires' support, he got slaughtered as well. Blair sold his soul to Murdoch et al which is why he won. But unless somebody could sell their soul for a lower price how could they win the billionaires' backing now?

The Tories are funded by Russian money (who back Brexit to cause political instability in Europe), by hedge funds (who back Brexit to make a shit load from shorting the pound and asset stripping UK firms) and by tax dodging media barons (who back Brexit because they like being the sole owners of the UK government). I take it you're advocating that a Labour leader should back a No Deal Brexit to appeal to these scum more than the Tories?

Or what would you do to get them onside?

The "middle ground" simply doesn't seem to appeal to anyone right now. The Lib Dems are supposed to be it but they support shrinking the state even further, they're actually economically very right wing. And lying shits of course too. The only way the Lib Dems have regained any support is by taking an extremist position on Brexit. When that's done, so are they.

One of the more curious mini battles in the Labour Party has been watching both the left and right of the party trying to put the responsibility for Ed Miliband on the other.

 

[redIndianDevil]

How come Labour is shown to be losing but in here there is a huge support for Labour in here going by the polls? Is there any chance for a Corbyn victory?

 

[Ubik]

unless something fairly dramatic happens it's a big Tory majority. Labour and the Lib Dems have only themselves to blame.

Worth saying that MRP results are only as good as the model. As far as I'm aware, the only model with a historical success rate is the real YouGov one, never heard of Datapraxis. Ashcroft's model in 2017 had a thumping Tory majority, for instance.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I think I’d rather take the risk and see if things improve rather than vote for guaranteed Brexit and another 5 years of guaranteed policies designed to choke public services and people on low or middle incomes. No less with a dangerous clown at the helm

Because I'm criticising Labour is not because I think the Tories are any better but Labour had a real chance of being sensible and more honest and have blown it with unrealistic outdated policies and a weak leader - this is the disappointment.

 

[Maticmaker]

I really don't think you're right that we have to leave. It was an advisory referendum indicating that the people were interested in leaving the EU, not actually forcing the government to do it. They're actually well within their rights to sack it all off, negotiate something and ask you again, or do it and to hell with it. Just as you are well within your rights to vote for someone else next time if they do something you don't like.

But out of interest who do you blame for the crocks of shit transition deals that May and Johnson have served up?

It only became advisory after the event, the Government and Parliament itself promised they would implement the result, unfortunately they got the wrong result.

Any deal agreed before we left, was going to be as you put it a 'crock of shit', because as the EU did not ask us to leave, they did not want us to leave, and the exiting rules of the EU would not allow a proper and full negotiation until we left. Once May had agreed to 'a deal' we were always at a disadvantage and she had a small opening after her 'deal' was rejected in Parliament to comeback and say I cannot get us a better deal and therefore I am revoking A50, but she didn't!

Johnson is 'polishing the turd' but his main motive is to 'get Brexit done' or out of the way, he then has a clear majority to run the country as he sees fit!

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Wrong. Milliband tried to appeal to the middle ground in 2015 but Murdoch backed the Tories and he got wiped out. And Brown didn't have the billionaires' support, he got slaughtered as well. Blair sold his soul to Murdoch et al which is why he won. But unless somebody could sell their soul for a lower price how could they win the billionaires' backing now?

The Tories are funded by Russian money (who back Brexit to cause political instability in Europe), by hedge funds (who back Brexit to make a shit load from shorting the pound and asset stripping UK firms) and by tax dodging media barons (who back Brexit because they like being the sole owners of the UK government). I take it you're advocating that a Labour leader should back a No Deal Brexit to appeal to these scum more than the Tories?

Or what would you do to get them onside?

The "middle ground" simply doesn't seem to appeal to anyone right now. The Lib Dems are supposed to be it but they support shrinking the state even further, they're actually economically very right wing. And lying shits of course too. The only way the Lib Dems have regained any support is by taking an extremist position on Brexit. When that's done, so are they.

momentum is destroying the Labour Party not Rupert Murdoch. The idea that there are lots of billionaires sat around who have shorted the £ as the reason for Brexit is pure conspiracy theory.

 

[horsechoker]

5 more years of Tory governance

hopefully alcohol doesn't become more expensive

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

How come Labour is shown to be losing but in here there is a huge support for Labour in here going by the polls? Is there any chance for a Corbyn victory?

for a start a protest party will always create more noise than an incumbent and their supporters will be more vocal. Tories are the silent majority.

secondly, the demographic on here is far (FAR) more likely to fit that of a labour supporter than Tory. Age, income etc.

Are there many people on here who are 45+ on well paid salaries?

 

[FlawlessThaw]

How come Labour is shown to be losing but in here there is a huge support for Labour in here going by the polls? Is there any chance for a Corbyn victory?

Not as many bog standard boomers on here.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

5 more years of Tory governance

hopefully alcohol doesn't become more expensive

and yet it was the SNP who introduced a minimum alcohol cost in Scotland where you would be lucky to find a Tory of any power within 100 miles.

 

[NWRed]

I love being a minority. A Tory supporting Brexit voter - bring on the abuse. But before you do, just consider the ridiculousness of branding someone racist/ uncaring/ poor hating bastard based on a binary vote in the referendum and the current climate where there is no credible opposition...

Personally I think it will be a hung parliament. I just cannot see such a big swing. Having said that, if you are an ardent leaver or an ardent remainer, and a traditional Labour voter what are you going to do? If labour had a competent leader they would have won the 2017 election, and would win this one.

I don't think all Brexit supporters are racist or stupid, except when they prove themselves to be by, for example, saying they voted out because of "immigration", but can't give a sensible reason why and don't even try when told about the huge benefits it brings economically and culturally, or say they voted out because of EU law, but can't name a single EU law, let alone one that either effects them or they disagree with.

 

[hubbuh]

I love being a minority. A Tory supporting Brexit voter - bring on the abuse. But before you do, just consider the ridiculousness of branding someone racist/ uncaring/ poor hating bastard based on a binary vote in the referendum and the current climate where there is no credible opposition...

Personally I think it will be a hung parliament. I just cannot see such a big swing. Having said that, if you are an ardent leaver or an ardent remainer, and a traditional Labour voter what are you going to do? If labour had a competent leader they would have won the 2017 election, and would win this one.

How the feck can anyone support the fecking Tories. Michael Gove? Jacob Rees-Mogg? Boris fecking Johnson? They've spent a decade dismantling the country and now we are supposed to trust that they will fix the very problems that they created? If you can't see that their rampant defunding policies are making life god awful for disabled people and low-paid workers, that it's created a surge in child poverty, surely if nothing else it's blatantly obvious that they are an incompetent bunch of knob 'eds. African people = "Watermelon smiles" and "piccanninnies", Muslim women wearing the burqa = "letterboxes" and "bank-robbers". Windrush scandal, "Go Home" vans. The endless lying (350M for the NHS, deceiving Queeny), Johnson's connection to Steve Bannon. They are nose-diving the country into oblivion. After 9 years of the same shit from the same cnuts, why not just try something else? If you really don't like it, you can always get the Bullingdon lot back in 4 years.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I don't think all Brexit supporters are racist or stupid, except when they prove themselves to be by, for example, saying they voted out because of "immigration", but can't give a sensible reason why and don't even try when told about the huge benefits it brings economically and culturally, or say they voted out because of EU law, but can't name a single EU law, let alone one that either effects them or they disagree with.

unfortunately most people don’t seem to think like that, and the country is divided due to the binary nature of a referendum. The reality is that much will be the same whether we remain or whether we leave.

Most people who voted leave and remain would say that the EU is not a perfect organisation, and that there are issues with how it’s run, but you had to make a choice, and therefore that brings out the extremis both sides.

before the referendum there were no flag waiving EU supporters on the street, and there were very few active leavers. As I said, most people think the EU has flaws. Unfortunately Cameron’s (futile, arrogant and failed) attempt to renegotiate terms with the EU, and their stubbornness has led to this - but we are long last that, and now need to try and find the best way out of three wasted years.

 

[sun_tzu]

and yet it was the SNP who introduced a minimum alcohol cost in Scotland where you would be lucky to find a Tory of any power within 100 miles.

To be fair they have almost double the Scottish labour MPs
Snp 35
Scottish conservatives 13
Scottish labour 7
Scottish libs 4

Also second biggest in the Scottish assembly
Snp 63
Scottish conservatives 31
Scottish labour 24
Scottish greens 6
Scottish libs 5

So it's not quite as hostile to conservatives as some suggest

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Because I'm criticising Labour is not because I think the Tories are any better but Labour had a real chance of being sensible and more honest and have blown it with unrealistic outdated policies and a weak leader - this is the disappointment.

Lets put a pin in this and discuss it after the election once the people have had a chance to weigh up the offers and the credibility of those providing them properly

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

How the feck can anyone support the fecking Tories. Michael Gove? Jacob Rees-Mogg? Boris fecking Johnson? They've spent a decade dismantling the country and now we are supposed to trust that they will fix the very problems that they created? If you can't see that their rampant defunding policies are making life god awful for disabled people and low-paid workers, that it's created a surge in child poverty, surely if nothing else it's blatantly obvious that they are an incompetent bunch of knob 'eds. African people = "Watermelon smiles" and "piccanninnies", Muslim women wearing the burqa = "letterboxes" and "bank-robbers". Windrush scandal, "Go Home" vans. The endless lying (350M for the NHS, deceiving Queeny), Johnson's connection to Steve Bannon. They are nose-diving the country into oblivion. After 9 years of the same shit from the same cnuts, why not just try something else? If you really don't like it, you can always get the Bullingdon lot back in 4 years.

It’s attitudes like this which show why Labour won’t get in. Look at the language that you have used.

Attitudes like this just mean that sensible discussion and debate is impossible. I can’t have a sensible conversation with someone who starts off with this attitude, and this is the reason we have extremes of both parties who have come to the fore. The reality is that both the Tory party and Labour are a coalition of ideologies, and the moderates share most of the same ideas across parties, but toxic discussion and calling people Cnuts helps absolutely no one, and just means if there was a sensible/ reasonable argument you had in there somewhere, it gets dismissed because of the way it’s presented.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

To be fair they have almost double the Scottish labour MPs
Snp 35
Scottish conservatives 13
Scottish labour 7
Scottish libs 4

Also second biggest in the Scottish assembly
Snp 63
Scottish conservatives 31
Scottish labour 24
Scottish greens 6
Scottish libs 5

So it's not quite as hostile to conservatives as some suggest

you are right of course. Just thought it was interesting that the one thing the poster didn’t want the Tories to do (increase alcohol prices), had been done in the devolved, SNP Scotland.

 

[Damien]

How come Labour is shown to be losing but in here there is a huge support for Labour in here going by the polls? Is there any chance for a Corbyn victory?

Nope. Support here is down to demographic. You would see the same on RAWK, GOT and a few other team forums based in the north.

 

[hubbuh]

It’s attitudes like this which show why Labour won’t get in. Look at the language that you have used.

Attitudes like this just mean that sensible discussion and debate is impossible. I can’t have a sensible conversation with someone who starts off with this attitude, and this is the reason we have extremes of both parties who have come to the fore. The reality is that both the Tory party and Labour are a coalition of ideologies, and the moderates share most of the same ideas across parties, but toxic discussion and calling people Cnuts helps absolutely no one, and just means if there was a sensible/ reasonable argument you had in there somewhere, it gets dismissed because of the way it’s presented.

I didn't call you a cnut, I called the Conservative party a bunch of cnuts. Much worse has been said, c'mon! It's also quite interesting that you took umbrage with my language (I think you're being a bit sensitive but ho-hum) and refuse to engage any further because of it, but can proudly support and cheer for a man that has used racist derogatory terminology in public.

 

[nimic]

Tory voters should be honest about what they really want: Empire.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I didn't call you a cnut, I called the Conservative party a bunch of cnuts. Much worse has been said, c'mon! It's also quite interesting that you took umbrage with my language (I think you're being a bit sensitive but ho-hum) and refuse to engage any further because of it, but can proudly support and cheer for a man that has used racist derogatory terminology in public.

I know that the insult wasn’t directed at me, but surely you see the challenge I have in discussing politics, when that’s the starting point?

mom not sensitive about language generally, but can we have a sensible discussion when your response is “well they are just a bunch of cnuts”?

I certainly don’t cheer for Boris, but faced with the choice of options, a government led by him will lead to a better outcome. I don’t agree with lots of things Boris has said and done, but you run the risk of just getting in to an argument who who would be the most abhorrent leader, Corbyn or Boris - both of whom have a very large closet full of skeletons.

 

[RedChip]

I have just put my vote in the post. Sadly, it will not make a diffrence in my constituency. I feel thoroughly miserable. Not how democracy should play out.

 

[NWRed]

unfortunately most people don’t seem to think like that, and the country is divided due to the binary nature of a referendum. The reality is that much will be the same whether we remain or whether we leave.

Most people who voted leave and remain would say that the EU is not a perfect organisation, and that there are issues with how it’s run, but you had to make a choice, and therefore that brings out the extremis both sides.

before the referendum there were no flag waiving EU supporters on the street, and there were very few active leavers. As I said, most people think the EU has flaws. Unfortunately Cameron’s (futile, arrogant and failed) attempt to renegotiate terms with the EU, and their stubbornness has led to this - but we are long last that, and now need to try and find the best way out of three wasted years.

The EU definitely has flaws, but also brings massive benefits and to me leaving is the absolute worst thing we can do, but these arguments aren't for now.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I have just put my vote in the post. Sadly, it will not make a diffrence in my constituency. I feel thoroughly miserable. Not how democracy should play out.

I have an MP who has a 12k+ majority and been incumbent for 20 years. It won’t matter whether I vote or not. I’m not sure what the alternative is though?

 

[Sweet Square]

It’s attitudes like this which show why Labour won’t get in. Look at the language that you have used.

Attitudes like this just mean that sensible discussion and debate is impossible. I can’t have a sensible conversation with someone who starts off with this attitude, and this is the reason we have extremes of both parties who have come to the fore. The reality is that both the Tory party and Labour are a coalition of ideologies, and the moderates share most of the same ideas across parties, but toxic discussion and calling people Cnuts helps absolutely no one, and just means if there was a sensible/ reasonable argument you had in there somewhere, it gets dismissed because of the way it’s presented.

This is honestly an illness. Please get help.

 

[sullydnl]

I have an MP who has a 12k+ majority and been incumbent for 20 years. It won’t matter whether I vote or not. I’m not sure what the alternative is though?

Some sort of proportional representation system, I guess? At least then your vote wouldn't be wasted in constituencies where there's a pre-determined winner.

 

[horsechoker]

I have an MP who has a 12k+ majority and been incumbent for 20 years. It won’t matter whether I vote or not. I’m not sure what the alternative is though?

Move

 

[DFreshKing]

How come Labour is shown to be losing but in here there is a huge support for Labour in here going by the polls? Is there any chance for a Corbyn victory?

No, this place does not represent the UK GE voters. The Tories are going to win - the only question is how big.

 

[711]

No, this place does not represent the UK GE voters. The Tories are going to win - the only question is how big.

Looking that way at moment. Because everyone wants the Empire back apparently. I blame Michael Caine, if only they had put a lesser actor in Zulu.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Looking that way at moment. Because everyone wants the Empire back apparently. I blame Michael Caine, if only they had put a lesser actor in Zulu.

Some do but not many. ’Get Brexit done’ is going to win the election I think.

 

[Judas]

I don't blame the rich voting Tory, makes sense for them, but the lower income folk who have been hoodwinked into thinking that party give the smallest feck about them is quite frankly very sad.