I know, but it wasn’t meant to be a bashing post, just seemed to be a massive flaw in the logic of why the EU would bother with giving a ‘better’ deal when the carrot of remain was the other option.
UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80
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A lot of these people don't care about unfortunately, and the ones they do will just be blamed on immigrants and "not getting brexit done", a narrative the media will back the Tories with no doubt. I understand those who are honest enough to vote conservative for their own personal wealth being consolidated, but for the turkeys who are going to be absolutely buggered by them in the years ahead I have no sympathy for, you do deserve what you vote for ultimately. I just feel sorry for the other folk who have to get dragged into the impending shitshow.
Name a few costs that aren’t accounted for? The government has done no assessments on the Brexit they are strongly pushing for and you think Labour’s ambitious tax receipts aren’t fiscally responsibile
Publicly traded companies like BT and others don’t have a choice if the shares are bought up
They’re already trading 7% lower on policy announcements and if Labour get in how much lower will they go? It would effectively wipe out any premium paid on takeovers.I think you don’t give enough credit to the experts that draw up these plans because you don’t have the capacity to comprehend it. It’s about thinking outside the box not operating within its limits as has been the case for decades.
Yet a labour party Comms officer was allowed to be one of the members of the public asking a question (in which he lied anyway) in order to make Corbyn look slightly less shit
https://order-order.com/2019/11/23/labour-comms-staffer-question-time-liar/
It's fair to say the BBC are pants but this surely isn't right either
https://order-order.com/2019/11/23/labour-comms-staffer-question-time-liar/
"BBC are pants" so you go to Guido?
Regardless of who has exposed it... If that's true it's not right is it
Standard Guido bollocks. He lives in Sheffield ffs that’s some commute to Lewisham.The guy is an activist not a staffer. He works for RedPepper Magazine.
Edit: Never been a staffer either, the position was voluntary.
Yes, could we get an additional source for that. It might be true but also it's Guido who happens to be besties with The Tory-Trump-Farage factcheckuk party.
This is him here:
https://mobile.twitter.com/LiamShrivastava
If you search his name on Google for LinkediN it shows he’s a Coordinator for RedPepper Magazine. If you add Labour to the search it shows his history as well in Lewisham constituency.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LiamShrivastava
If you search his name on Google for LinkediN it shows he’s a Coordinator for RedPepper Magazine. If you add Labour to the search it shows his history as well in Lewisham constituency.
He's at least admitted he was wrong, unlike Corbyn's twitter account.
The "but....but... Labour..." stuff is getting kinda tiresome, folks.
I just don't think it's great to attempt to dishonestly hide his own meek position behind a successful Labour leader. You may differ.
unless something fairly dramatic happens it's a big Tory majority. Labour and the Lib Dems have only themselves to blame.
I love being a minority. A Tory supporting Brexit voter - bring on the abuse. But before you do, just consider the ridiculousness of branding someone racist/ uncaring/ poor hating bastard based on a binary vote in the referendum and the current climate where there is no credible opposition...
Personally I think it will be a hung parliament. I just cannot see such a big swing. Having said that, if you are an ardent leaver or an ardent remainer, and a traditional Labour voter what are you going to do? If labour had a competent leader they would have won the 2017 election, and would win this one.
Sums up this countries problems in an instant. We've become so unwilling to look out for those less fortunate than ourselves.
Do you think it can be worse than the crock of shite we've got now? We have a trade border in the Irish sea FFS! What kind of "Unionist" genius came up with that?
This is the problem with Brexit, none of the deals will be any good because the EU has a much stronger hand than we do, but at least the EU would know they'd be negotiating with Corbyn in good faith rather than some fat oaf who constantly tells everyone he's going to break the deal as soon as it's signed.
What I've never understood is why people think that threatening to leave with no deal is a more effective negotiating strategy than revoking article 50 and then reinvoking it immediately, guaranteeing 2 more years of headaches for the EU. That would give us a far stronger hand than cutting off our metaphorical cock and saying "I told you we weren't having sex tonight!"
It is not.
Similar to this other Conservative activist serial question time "audience member". He has been on 3 times apparently.
This is the guy who said that he doesn't buy Corbyns "nice old grandpa act" which then got clipped up by BBC editors for bbc news at 10pm that same night.
Hessle man who clashed with Jeremy Corbyn on Question Time is Tory activist
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/new...ws/question-time-jeremy-corbyn-hessle-3570638
Ryan Jacobsz is a Hull West & Hessle representative to the Conservative Area Council
https://www.conservativehome.com/pl...-must-make-better-use-of-their-activists.html
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Personally I think that's bollocks as the Tories currently own the media and can pedal any amount of lies about the opposition which goes unchallenged. I'm not a traditional Labour voter but am sick and tired of the media shite about Corbyn and I personally hate thi bunch of Tories, I think the majority deserve to be in prison for selling out the country in favour of making money from Brexit. I'd vote anyone over this bunch of scum.
I don't think any Labour leader could win. Murdoch and the other corrupt billionaires are backing the Tories. Is the Labour leader supposed to sell his soul for a lower price than them or something?
This.
Why do the BBC keep putting themselves in this situation?
Imagine voting for this Tory government which have absolutely no credibility and a track record, 10 years of failure and chaos.
Then imagine using the flawed reasoning of no credible opposition.
Out of interest, did you ever vote for Labour? When they had a "credible opposition" in your view.
My gut feel is a small majority for the conservatives
And quite possibly small enough that it causes them problems during any trade talks if 15 hardcore erg start with some crazy trade demands
But yeah Corbyn is basically Ronnie Rosenthal running through against villa and somehow against all odds he's found a way to gash up what should have been an open goal / tap in of an election
I'll vote libs as they are one of only 2 candidates who back remain in my area (the other being green which I considered but after talking to the local candidate quickly dismissed as an option)
The odds in my constituency are as follows
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/constituencies/next-uk-general-election-constituencies/ashfield
Conservative 5/4
Independent 6/4
Labour 6/1
Brexit 25/1
Ukip 100/1
Libs 125/1
Green 500/1
So my vote is pretty much wasted but I'd rather vote for something I believe in
To put these odds in context the constituiency was formed in 1955 and labour have held it since then except for 2 years
1977 by election conservatives won and labour regained in 1979
Labour are not helped by the incumbent mp stepping down and nor are they helped by the frankly awful local campaign the labour candidate has run (the conservative one has also been piss poor and the independent candidate is a former lib candidate who was stood down in the last election over inappropriate behaviour allegations )
Frankly labour should be able to put a red rosette on pretty much anybody and walk the seat but Corbyn is just toxic to all but a small group of momentum folks who joined the local labour party en masse and have selected the current candidate
If they loose this seat (and I think they will) I can see them doing worse than 1983 under foot
I think they will get about 205 MP's ... But a gaffe of two in the next couple of weeks could see them sink under 200 (of course there could be events that see them gain but even then I can't see them even retaining their current number of MP's
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Name a few costs that aren’t accounted for? The government has done no assessments on the Brexit they are strongly pushing for and you think Labour’s ambitious tax receipts aren’t fiscally responsibile
Publicly traded companies like BT and others don’t have a choice if the shares are bought up
I think you don’t give enough credit to the experts that draw up these plans because you don’t have the capacity to comprehend it. It’s about thinking outside the box not operating within its limits as has been the case for decades.
Obviously they haven't done assessments - just for starters their Brexit plan is even more ridiculous than the Tories. There is absolutely zero chance that it will happen.
You seriously think that companies are going to sit back and be dictated to by Labour or that rich people won't find a way of not paying.
So the idea of nationalisation means you crash the companies you want to take over. These companies are owned by multinationals.
This is like some stupid adolescents idea of how the 1960s should be . It's Corbyn's fantasy. Took the UK 15 years or so to get out of that idiocy and nearly killed the country.
Already today one of the points that is not costed is the women's pensions that will cost £58bn. The marriage allowance abolishment will not cost the 5% of rich people.
It appeals to younger people because they didn't live through the 60s and 70s and thinks it's all revolutionary thinking. Tax the evil rich, don't be successful - it's 50 years out of date and was an utter disaster back then.
On top of that you'd have to be outside the EU to do it. What a prospect Brexit+Corbyn.
I found this totally weird. After a costed manifesto is released, why then add in £11bn a year expenditure two days later that blows that calculation out of the water?
While this particular issue of female pension entitlement is an anomaly, to then add this massive figure does cast doubt on the overall affordability.
To be honest we should all take these electioneering promises as just that.
They are just as irresponsible as the disastrous Austerity programme.
Come on. Let's be sensible please.
My view entirely. At precisely the time that we really do need a strong opposition to hold the Tories to account we have easily the least electable Labour party and leader.
I just hope that we don't end up with a Tory majority.
Royal Mail, Buses, care work, gas & electricity, prisons, probation services, railways, schools (academies), water or my personal favourite, Hinkley point nuclear power station being part owned and funded by the Chinese state!
Hinkley Point: the ‘dreadful deal’ behind the world’s most expensive power plant https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/21/hinkley-point-c-dreadful-deal-behind-worlds-most-expensive-power-plant
How many more privatisation failures do you need to see before you question the ideology?
Most countries across Europe have much more nationalised services than the UK and are successful with it. If done strategically for key services it can help drive the economy and support the private sector growth.
Does it not concern you at all that unequal societies tend to end in serious civil disorder e.g. Chile? Your answer is just to let things be, let giant multinationals run the world and destroy the planet?
Part of the jubilance in 2017 was that the election results had left them in a position from which they could (and probably should?) win the next election. Huge majorities in safe Labour seats, and much closer to overturning a large number of core Conservative constituencies. Complete failure not to capitalise on that over the last two years.
That said, I think there will be a late Labour surge in the polls, taking us a bit closer to the 2017 result. Maybe not as significant as last time, but I think the Lib Dem vote is going to collapse, they're having a dire campaign.
I think a conservative majority is most likley but even if not a conservative minority seems almost certain to me
650 MPs
Sinn Fein will return around 7 and there is the speaker
So effectively 642
So you need 322 for a majority
The dup will return around 10 MP's and these will not back Corbyn under any circumstances
The SNP will if they do well return something in the region of 44 to 49
Plaid will return perhaps 3
Greens will get probably 1
And some ex conservatives might retain their seats but again they won't back Corbyn
So perhaps 53 votes there that Corbyn could get onside though no doubt with some concessions particularly SNP and indy ref 2
That would mean labour would need another 270 and that seems a stretch
If they could get 240 (I don't think they will but if they could) and the libs get 30
Then essentially the libs are the kingmakers and I can't game through a route where they go with Corbyn
The libs would demand a people's vote as their price to put somebody in power
I think the conservatives would have to offer that because if you game through their options it is simply in their interests
Essentially they could either allow Corbyn to renegotiate their deal and put Corbyn in power... Or they could ensure their deal is on the ballot and keep Corbyn out of power and I think for future electability with their base they have no real option other than to agree to the referendum Boris deal or remain asap
If your the libs and the offer is
Supply and confidence with the largest party (conservatives) and the Boris deal is the other option in a referendum you know that labour will campaign for remain with you as will the SNP plaid greens
If you backed the labour party you have the delay of Corbyn negotiating a new deal that labour may campaign for or against or remain neutral ... Plus you would also have to sign up to whatever labour had promised the SNP
Put simply I can't see why they would back labour in those scenarios.
Given labour have some internal conflicts over brexit I think labour would need at least 280 seats the SNP plaid and the greens to even form a minority goverent
Perhaps a deal could be done to pursuade the libs to abstain rather than vote either way ... But even then labour probably need 270 which as I say I simply can't see
Also factor in if the SNP do win 49 seats then swinson is probably gone and Corbyn might have to negotiate with chukka ...
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If you don’t want to accept the outcome is BRINO or Remain with Labour then you’re just arguing for the sake of it.
Companies will follow country rules and laws if they want to trade here. Are you saying Google, Facebook and Amazon to name a few giants will up and leave
We weren’t talking about the Waspi women yesterday when you said you read the grey book and stuff was uncosted but didn’t mention anything so that was clearly bollocks. That pledge is aimed at addressing an injustice. McDonnell said it’s a one off contingency today and it is uncosted thus far as it was only announced yesterday.
Policies appeal to people that are clearly suffering in this so called trickle down economy and to those of us who aren’t selfish cnuts and can recognise the issues society faces as a whole despite not being in hardship.
If there’s anything out of date fit for the 50s it’s the marriage allowance.
labour needs to appeal to the middle ground. That’s how labour wins a general election, that’s how Blair and Brown did it - that’s how you appeal to traditional Tort voters.
The Labour Party and Conservatives are both coalitions within themselves. Both have jolted from the middle, The ERG within the Torres has led to a more right wing approach and Momentum has led to a more left wing approach in Labour. A left wing, out of date way of thinking is never going to win a GE, in spite of having the weakest government in 40 years - speaks volumes of how ineffective Corbyn is.
mom another point the BBC is interesting, I see Labour and Tory voters both complaining about its neutrality.
But they are run as companies, not state bailouts. Name a successful nationalised industy in the UK before privatisation. How will the government pay for it without crashing the company in question?
No sign of the conservative collapse so far... Labour really need a maybot and the dementia tax type moment again I think
For comparison in 2017 the conservatives got 42.3% of the vote labour 40%
Libs 7.4%
In simple terms it looks like labour has lost support to brexit and libs...about 2 people to libs for every 1 to brexit
I think that's roughly in line with labour vote demographics on brexit... Essentially as was warned all along by being so non committal they will bleed votes on either side but a lot more to remain options
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Yes in 1997 and 2001.
labour were as aspirational party, appealing to middle England at that time. That’s how you win a GE, not by being led by Momentum and the Unions.
the vast majority of labour MPs have no faith in his leadership or policies. Thesame is no doubt true about the Tories (which as I’ve said is a weak government), if you had a progressive leader like David Milliband leading the party, or even (I know he’s no longer an MP, but he was a far better choice than his brother. David has the popular vote, but it was the Unions that elected his brother). A trusted old head like Hilary Benn would win a GE against Boris - I’ve no doubt.
I would never vote for a failed idiology, re-nationalisation, and dis-aspirational Britain.
Corbyn’s utter lack of leadership on Brexit is astonishing and wholly unbelievable. No one believes he can renegotiate a completely different deal with the EU as a party that doesn’t even know whether they want to remain or leave. The Tory negotiations have been a joke, this is just absurd.
If you don’t want to accept the outcome is BRINO or Remain with Labour then you’re just arguing for the sake of it.
Companies will follow country rules and laws if they want to trade here. Are you saying Google, Facebook and Amazon to name a few giants will up and leave
We weren’t talking about the Waspi women yesterday when you said you read the grey book and stuff was uncosted but didn’t mention anything so that was clearly bollocks. That pledge is aimed at addressing an injustice. McDonnell said it’s a one off contingency today and it is uncosted thus far as it was only announced yesterday.
Policies appeal to people that are clearly suffering in this so called trickle down economy and to those of us who aren’t selfish cnuts and can recognise the issues society faces as a whole despite not being in hardship.
If there’s anything out of date fit for the 50s it’s the marriage allowance.
I am not arguing for the sake of it - you are seeing what you want to see and it is definitely not BRINO and as I said if it was the referendum between those two it would be ridiculous. I really don't see how anyone thinks the Labour proposal is remotely possible, it's complete and utter nonsense.
Companies will invest in the country if they think it's worth their while. If the rules and laws are too onerous they will act accordingly. How much money do you seriously think Corbyn will get out of Google, even if they paid taking their turnover and and assumed profit into account, it's still only millions per year not billions. It's so naïve.
The pension had been discussed for 18 months but they suddenly announce it two days after the manifesto costing, you don't smell a rat. No this was not what I was referring to originally.
Maybe the marriage allowance is out of date but those who will pay for it will be members of the 95% not the 5% which is not what Labour said.
When the plans don't work and the money expected doesn't arrive, who's going to pay for it then and whatever happens after Brexit , even a BRINO, who's going to pay for it then.
It's not a question of not wanting people to be better off, it's a question of the plan going disastrously wrong and the people who are badly off, being even worse off, in effect everyone being worse off except the very rich who will survive whatever the policies are .
This is properly shocking. The BBC edited the question time footage to edit out the laughing at the question and make it sound like the applause for the question was actually applause for Johnson's initial response.
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