Twitter Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
RDCR07 said:
Because we need someone in that midfield NOW to offer something. There is absolutely nothing in our midfield right now. No creativity, no proper defensive mid, no crunching tacklers etc. We have a 6 point deficit with 15 games to go. It might look like a small gap but every point from here on in is vital.
Click to expand...

You speak as if the likes of Carrick, Cleverley, Fletcher and Fellaini are a bunch of retards. Look, we need to improve there, but let's not milk this too much. They're good players. There is bigger problems than the midfield pairing. Ideally, we'd have a manager that could get the best out of them, similar to the way in which inferior midfielders at inferior clubs manage to play well and keep the ball successfully. Moyes has a lot of work to do, and I can guarantee you that spending money on this quick fix you speak of is the least of it. We have defensively minded midfielders. Believe it or not, they can actually pass the ball a bit as well. There is a wider issue of playing style here and this isn't changing overnight.
 
sullydnl said:
Thing is, all our current cms are basically stop gap as they are either the wrong quality or age. Signing another player in that bracket will only offer minor improvement (or may not improve us at all). Another stop gap signing would be pretty pointless.

One thing it would definitely do is further clutter the squad. We already know we need one or two top cms. Add another stop gap and we're adding two or three players. Where is the room in our squad? Fellaini definitely isn't leaving, Cleverley probably isn't either. Are we happy to jettison either Fletcher or Carrick?

That's all assuming our squad numbers stay the same. If Moyes decides he wants a smaller squad then we have even less use for more relatively ordinary players.

We already have enough dross without adding more and that's exactly what someone who is "better than everyone we have bar Carrick" would be.
Click to expand...

Alright so if we signed Matuidi tomorrow, tell me how this is a stop gap? Now lets consider he isn't the best of the best.
 
There are players of sufficient quality that would be an instant upgrade on any midfielder we have, possibly Carrick aside.

Matuidi would offer plenty of energy, mobility and defensive improvement than anything we possess and with PSG signing Cabaye and seemingly not re-negotiating a new contract for Matuidi; that deal could feasibly happen this month at the right path.

We need two central midfielders as it is. Anyone who can instantly improve us and aid us in our bid to snatch top four for us, should be intensely monitored as a possible signing. We all want a Vidal, Kroos or Gundogan - me included - but missing out on top four could mean hopes of signing that calibre of player are dash.

Top four this season is incredibly important for the foreseeable future in my opinion, otherwise we run the risk of stagnating or declining further. It makes reclaiming top four an even more difficult job.
 
It's not like there are only two ways things can go - either buy a world class midfielder or just a squad player. There are still options that could significantly improve our midfield now, who next season, after more quality additions, would drift into being squad options in an overall better squad.

edit: was on page 13, seen new posts addressing this. second that.
 
Last edited:
Mainoldo said:
Alright so if we signed Matuidi tomorrow, tell me how this is a stop gap? Now lets consider he isn't the best of the best.
Click to expand...

Haven't seen enough of him to know how good he is, to be fair.

My new shorthand rule for judging potential cm signings: are they better than Michael Carrick? If they are then they could well be worth signing. However, if they're only "better than everyone we have bar Carrick" then they're probably more pointless dross.

So, is Matuidi definitely better than Carrick? That should be our new minimum standard.
 
sullydnl said:
Haven't seen enough of him to know how good he is, to be fair.

My new shorthand rule for judging potential cm signings: are they better than Michael Carrick? If they are then they could well be worth signing. However, if they're only "better than everyone we have bar Carrick" then they're probably more pointless dross.

So, is Matuidi definitely better than Carrick? That should be our new minimum standard.
Click to expand...

Problem is, Carrick has regressed a bit this season so really and truly he isn't the bench mark anymore IMO.
 
Mersault said:
It's not like there are only two ways things can go - either buy a world class midfielder or just a squad player. There are still options that could significantly improve our midfield now, while next season, after more quality additions, would drift into being squad options in an overall better squad.

edit: was on page 13, seen new posts addressing this. second that.
Click to expand...

Like who? Blaise Matuidi can't sign with anyone at the moment. Cabaye was the only other option that would have improved us. We need a midfielder in the mould of the ones we are getting linked to. Pay big fees, pay big wages and pander to agents and such players may well come. And please don't mention some 'grass is greener' type. The reality of our situation is that until significant changes in style and philosophy are made, we'll see little improvement. Mata hit more long balls out wide than I've ever seen him do in a Chelsea shirt the other night. Even he, legitimate elite talent, isn't going to solve anything overnight.

And anyway, we all know that all of Carrick, Fletcher and Fellaini will be here come September. Probably Cleverley, too. There isn't the room for both kind of talent you speak of. We need the very best and we should wait until the Summer to get it.
 
sullydnl said:
Haven't seen enough of him to know how good he is, to be fair.

My new shorthand rule for judging potential cm signings: are they better than Michael Carrick? If they are then they could well be worth signing. However, if they're only "better than everyone we have bar Carrick" then they're probably more pointless dross.

So, is Matuidi definitely better than Carrick? That should be our new minimum standard.
Click to expand...

Well not really the best analysis in the world is it. It depends how much you rate Michael Carrick. To most there are a lot of players better than Carrick, who we as United fans would argue against.

But to answer your question anyone but a United fan would probably say he is better than Carrick however a lot of people would tell you Gareth Barry is better than Carrick if you get what I mean.
 
Also, signing stop gaps also gets in the way of promoting some real talent in reserves like Pereira and hopefully potentially Pearson.
 
Mainoldo said:
Well not really the best analysis in the world is it. It depends how much you rate Michael Carrick. To most there are a lot of players better than Carrick, who we as United fans would argue against.

But to answer your question anyone but a United fan would probably say he is better than Carrick however a lot of people would tell you Gareth Barry is better than Carrick if you get what I mean.
Click to expand...

Yep I get your point.

It just amuses me that people want us to sign players they're not convinced are even better than Carrick, who was overrated by some and has regressed this season anyway. Not exactly the highest standard, is it?

"Better than everyone we have bar Carrick" translates directly into "another ordinary player". People shouldn't recommend a signing if even they think that's the level they're at.
 
The bottom line to me is that if the player can help us get in to the top four then we should go for it. What's the point in holding out for top class players if we don't get in to the Champions League next season. There is basically no way Vidal/Kroos/Gundogan/etc come to use if we don't make the top 4. As long as they're an improvement on what we have I say we should go for it (assuming we aren't paying a fortune). If Fernando or whoever comes in and is better than any of Cleverley/Carrick/Fletcher then one of those three can leave in the summer to make room for our real targets.
 
gza the genius said:
The bottom line to me is that if the player can help us get in to the top four then we should go for it. What's the point in holding out for top class players if we don't get in to the Champions League next season. There is basically no way Vidal/Kroos/Gundogan/etc come to use if we don't make the top 4. As long as they're an improvement on what we have I say we should go for it (assuming we aren't paying a fortune). If Fernando or whoever comes in and is better than any of Cleverley/Carrick/Fletcher then one of those three can leave in the summer to make room for our real targets.
Click to expand...

You would let Fletcher leave in the summer? After all he went through? Unbelievable.
 
Kag said:
Like who? Blaise Matuidi can't sign with anyone at the moment. Cabaye was the only other option that would have improved us. We need a midfielder in the mould of the ones we are getting linked to. Pay big fees, pay big wages and pander to agents and such players may well come. And please don't mention some 'grass is greener' type. The reality of our situation is that until significant changes in style and philosophy are made, we'll see little improvement. Mata hit more long balls out wide than I've ever seen him do in a Chelsea shirt the other night. Even he, legitimate elite talent, isn't going to solve anything overnight.

And anyway, we all know that all of Carrick, Fletcher and Fellaini will be here come September. Probably Cleverley, too. There isn't the room for both kind of talent you speak of. We need the very best and we should wait until the Summer to get it.
Click to expand...

I think we can both look to get the best in the summer, and find a better midfielder now than what we've got. I think the former is made likelier by the latter.
 
Yeah, Fletch ain't leaving. He's an inspirational figure at the club and more of a leader than any other player in our ranks, bar maybe Evra. I hope he eventually goes into coaching for us.
 
gza the genius said:
The bottom line to me is that if the player can help us get in to the top four then we should go for it. What's the point in holding out for top class players if we don't get in to the Champions League next season. There is basically no way Vidal/Kroos/Gundogan/etc come to use if we don't make the top 4. As long as they're an improvement on what we have I say we should go for it (assuming we aren't paying a fortune). If Fernando or whoever comes in and is better than any of Cleverley/Carrick/Fletcher then one of those three can leave in the summer to make room for our real targets.
Click to expand...

Double their wage and suck off their agent and there's every chance. Transfer market 2014. By all accounts, Moyes is expecting big business. So is Mata.
 
gza the genius said:
I'd probably let both Carrick and Cleverley go before him. I'd gladly let Fellaini go before him too but that just isn't going to happen.
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand the concept of loyalty to players (but I'm sure you would want them to be loyal to United) or squad dynamics if you would let go 3 English/British players who all play in midfield in the summer.

This isn't football manager.
 
I didn't say let them all go, I said let one go.

So we're supposed to keep all of Cleverley, Carrick, Fletcher, Fellaini and then buy two world class players? On top of Powell likely coming back.
 
NM said:
You would let Fletcher leave in the summer? After all he went through? Unbelievable.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Getting rid of Fletcher would be cold. Carrick doesn't deserve the chop either.

That leaves Fellaini (who definitely isn't going) and Cleverley (who is very unlikely to go).

No room for more average players unless Moyes turns out to be extremely ruthless.
 
Mainoldo said:
Liverpool didn't have Mata, Rooney and RVP. Liverpool's probably is that they brought potential players who they thought would develop into class players, problem was they was always only going to be 'good' players. This has nothing to do with us buying 'one' midfielder with extra much needed quality.
Click to expand...

I don't really get what you are arguing here?
 
gza the genius said:
I didn't say let them all go, I said let one go.

So we're supposed to keep all of Cleverley, Carrick, Fletcher, Fellaini and then buy two world class players? On top of Powell likely coming back.
Click to expand...

Well Cleverley is the only one that could potentially get moved on. I expect Powell to get a Premier League loan. There's room for one if Tom stays, two if he goes. Hence, this next buy is crucial.
 
Kag said:
Well Cleverley is the only one that could potentially get moved on. I expect Powell to get a Premier League loan. There's room for one if Tom stays, two if he goes. Hence, this next buy is crucial.
Click to expand...
I'd say Carrick has more chance of being moved on than Cleverley, he's not suited to Moyes' game at all and looks to have peaked.
 
Kag said:
Well Cleverley is the only one that could potentially get moved on. I expect Powell to get a Premier League loan. There's room for one if Tom stays, two if he goes. Hence, this next buy is crucial.
Click to expand...

At this point I honestly expect Carrick to get shipped out before any one else. He's the oldest and he's had a terrible season. I've never really had a bad word to say about Carrick before this season but at this point I wouldn't mind him going.

To clarify, I'm not some heartless person who thinks we should sell Fletcher, I was just listing the players that could go. Fellaini obviously isn't going anywhere so that left the other three.

I understand the countering opinions but at the same time I just don't think we should risk missing out on the top four because of loyalty to Carrick/Cleverley. If they don't improve, and soon, why should we keep them?
 
Carrick's had a 'terrible season' but still has been our best midfielder. There's no way we'll be selling Carrick and rightly so. He's suffered with injuries this season too.
 
charlenefan said:
Even being injured for the majority yeah he has

Can't seriously believe people want Carrick sold, is it 2009 all over again?
Click to expand...
Don't want him sold but there's a serious possibility he'll be moved on in the summer. He's not suited to a high pressing game, he's been poor and he's thirty three. Fletcher and Fellaini are probably our only safe midfielders.
 
Kid Cunto said:
Don't want him sold but there's a serious possibility he'll be moved on in the summer. He's not suited to a high pressing game, he's been poor and he's thirty three. Fletcher and Fellaini are probably our only safe midfielders.
Click to expand...
Bloody hell, he'll be 33 in the summer. I was sure he was 31. Dang...it's certainly not out of the question that he might leave in the summer, but I can't see it happening myself. Hopefully he can come back from injury and improve his form.
 
Kid Cunto said:
Don't want him sold but there's a serious possibility he'll be moved on in the summer. He's not suited to a high pressing game, he's been poor and he's thirty three. Fletcher and Fellaini are probably our only safe midfielders.
Click to expand...
Can Fellaini play a high pressing game? He's seemed quite immobile so far. And Carrick surely will be here next season, at least as a quality squad player, though I think he'll play quite a lot.
 
Mersault said:
Can Fellaini play a high pressing game? He's seemed quite immobile so far. And Carrick surely will be here next season, at least as a quality squad player, though I think he'll play quite a lot.
Click to expand...
I dunno if Fellaini can or not, he pressed as an attacking midfielder, I know that. With our front four we're gonna need two centre midfield players we can rely on to protect the defence. I dunno if Carrick is that man.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.