The American Dream is also about the ability to reinvent oneself. It is a large and varied enough country that anything is possible if you are mobile. I agree that the outcomes usually don't match the aspirations.
Trump and Brexit: What has happened to the world?
- Thread starter sullydnl
- Start date
That is correct (the ascendant right is generally cold on science funding). If this trend continues I've wasted the 1st 30 years of my life.
Its a start. Also, just because it didn't work in one scenario doesn't mean it couldn't work in other. Political reforms are need of the other. Its better to do something about it rather than nothing...
So you want a discrimination based on the historic political correctness of candidates. To me that's included in the votes, people voted for Trump despite his history because the american society believes that it's not a big deal which for me is fair enough.
Basically it's way too subjective and would require a moral police which I'm against.
It's not hard to see the psychological origins of Mao and Stalin when you read the Cafe, is it? The left's total inability to accept the right of others to have a different opinion to themselves, and eagerness to deprive them of control of their own lives is the foundation stone of tyranny.
So you are ok if someone is making racist comments at a work place??
Nice one.
Eh? What evidence do you have for the left having a monopoly on not wanting others to hold dissenting views? This idea that the right never shouts down or tries to suppress the opinions of people they disagree is one of the biggest myths going round these days.
Is that what I said? I told you that I can't decide what is socially right and wrong on my own, it is a decision that is taken by the group and in that case you can clearly see that in the US the group thinks that Donald Trump is morally fit enough to be president.
We're just repeating the 1930's.
Not quite there yet, 1929 is still two or three years away
Especially as we're talking about an election cycle when the right candidate has literally threatened to lock up his rival and has had mass cries of 'lock her up' at his rallies ffs.
Nice one.
Believe me he means it.
Sorry billy that was a good one
Agreed, that would only end up marginilising the poor and uneducated even further.
I didnt say that you said it. I was just asking you.
No, He is not morally fit enough just because a group decides so. What you are saying is moral relativism.Are you saying you cannot inherently decide what is right and wrong yourself. Nevermind, this is going way off topic. Just ignore that and answer me this, Should People in the position of power be held to a standard better than your average Joe?. And if so what is wrong in deciding that standards and implementing it before the nominations??
That there is it. Trump and Bernie were fuelled by the same disillusionment, the only difference being that the Republican scene can stomach more WWE tendencies than the left, and so Trump could get free exposure by being outrageous, whereas Bernie was fighting a coronation and had no real way to gain enough media attention for his movement to take off sufficiently.
It's a shame it had to come to this, but how many decades have people been scare-mongered into voting for the lesser evil, and told that a third party vote is selfish and destructive?
It's also plain as day that humans revert to their baser instincts when the going's are tough, and politicians and media are all too happy to stoke the fires. Surprise surprise, they stoked the fire to the extent that they could no longer contain it.
I hope the scourge is brief and that it'll leave in its wake a fertile soil that will be conducive to an actual grass-roots movement for the people.
Sorry for being heavy on the metaphorical platitudes.
I think the Trump election has more in common with Boris Johnson's mayorship and Arnold Schwarzenegger's governorship. It's a celebrity appointment made by voters who have a limited view of what makes an individual competent.
On the other hand, Brexit was misguided but I do believe it was voted for on good faith. That faith may well have been misplaced, but still...
I don't think these two election results have much to do with each other. Maybe you could point to rising Islamophobia as a totem pole for both campaigns, but the nature of them was very different.
On the other hand, Brexit was misguided but I do believe it was voted for on good faith. That faith may well have been misplaced, but still...
I don't think these two election results have much to do with each other. Maybe you could point to rising Islamophobia as a totem pole for both campaigns, but the nature of them was very different.
That's your opinion, I agree with you but it seems that we are in the minority.
My mother told me she's buying me mouthwash for Christmas for repeating the very same things as the guy she voted for.
So far on here today I've seen that old people shouldn't be allowed to vote, and now the uneducated
feck sake
feck sake
Voter Suppression FTW!
Politics has gone full X factor. Its all about hype and drama, not serious content.
Combine that with millions of disenfranchised people and you get results like this.
Combine that with millions of disenfranchised people and you get results like this.
I actually was not seriously suggesting that. The part about literacy test was a big clue
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test
It's the Leicester effect in some ways. Everyone wants to be part of something historic and something that will never be repeated. It's why we had United, Liverpool and City fans all celebrating the same team.
Neither result will happen again.
Neither result will happen again.
I'm still blaming Fergie
Immigration was a big issue in both the elections so they definitely had something in common.
In a nutshell
Immigration is an issue in every election.
But the complexion of the campaigns was very different.
For all the complaints here about older voters, it really shouldn't be that hard to empathise with them. I imagine they've spent a long time feeling the way a lot of us do now: The world had shifted away from the values they believed in and they wanted to put things right. I don't agree with those values at all but still....
The people who really irk me are the younger liberals who claimed that Clinton was just as bad as Trump and didn't vote for her as a result.
The people who really irk me are the younger liberals who claimed that Clinton was just as bad as Trump and didn't vote for her as a result.
The US is one of the worst developed nations for social mobility. The American Way in fact entrenches poverty.
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The sobering reality is that the decades of being ruled by generally terrible politicians has resulted in an electorate who feel disenfranchised and that they are being ignored/left behind. This makes people upset and angry. Upset and angry people often do stupid things without neccesarily thinking things through.
Result = Brexit and President Trump
Politicians of the world hang your collective heads in shame.
Result = Brexit and President Trump
Politicians of the world hang your collective heads in shame.
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One thing that the two elections definitely had in common (and that may well deserve a thread on its own) is the power of social media. Facebook and Twitter played a big role for both Trump and Brexit.
Neither campaign was particularly rooted in logic. In years gone by, TV or newspapers would have torn apart the flimsy premises that each was built on. But with Facebook and Twitter deciding what news you see, the Left only saw leftist news and the Right only saw right-wing news. Neither side got a big picture view of what was going on, and neither side saw their own favoured theories broken down in a meaningful way.
This may be the sign of things to come. Social media algorithms could be more influential than we'd ever considered.
Neither campaign was particularly rooted in logic. In years gone by, TV or newspapers would have torn apart the flimsy premises that each was built on. But with Facebook and Twitter deciding what news you see, the Left only saw leftist news and the Right only saw right-wing news. Neither side got a big picture view of what was going on, and neither side saw their own favoured theories broken down in a meaningful way.
This may be the sign of things to come. Social media algorithms could be more influential than we'd ever considered.
Yeah, some like me don't vote while others protest by voting for genuinely awful politicians.
I was very much against Brexit but I think Trump is a good thing.
Big brash idiot Republican to counteract Obama's wussiness on the international stage, Putin might welcome Trump now but I see them becoming huge rivals over time, if Putin thinks he can ride roughshod over American interests with only monetary punishments with redneck Trump in charge backed by his tub thumping hillbilly support he has another thing coming. Trump is someone who will actually address problems he sees without any thought for stepping on shoes or political correctness, a quality we never see with actual politicians.
He's been very positive about a post-Brexit trade deal to boot.
Big brash idiot Republican to counteract Obama's wussiness on the international stage, Putin might welcome Trump now but I see them becoming huge rivals over time, if Putin thinks he can ride roughshod over American interests with only monetary punishments with redneck Trump in charge backed by his tub thumping hillbilly support he has another thing coming. Trump is someone who will actually address problems he sees without any thought for stepping on shoes or political correctness, a quality we never see with actual politicians.
He's been very positive about a post-Brexit trade deal to boot.
Like Brexit it's a protest vote, and a sign that a large proportion of the respective countries don't feel the politicians are listening to them or representing their interests. I've not seen the backlash, but if it's anything like Brexit just calling voters stupid isn't going to help.
Preach.
Very apt point. The echo chamber effect is bad enough with people curating their own feeds by following and unfollowing, liking and disliking. But algorithms adapting to those behaviours magnifies it tenfold.
Yeah that's perfectly fair. The economic shitshow that was the UK in the 70's is a big part of why I'm so pro-EU.
Read the Letter Aaron Sorkin Wrote His Daughter After Donald Trump Was Elected President
The Oscar-winning screenwriter of The Social Network and mastermind behind The West Wing reacts to Donald Trump being elected the 45th president of the United States in a moving letter written to his 15-year-old daughter Roxy and her mother Julia Sorkin.
by
NOVEMBER 9, 2016
Sorkin Girls,
Well the world changed late last night in a way I couldn’t protect us from. That’s a terrible feeling for a father. I won’t sugarcoat it—this is truly horrible. It’s hardly the first time my candidate didn’t win (in fact it’s the sixth time) but it is the first time that a thoroughly incompetent pig with dangerous ideas, a serious psychiatric disorder, no knowledge of the world and no curiosity to learn has.
And it wasn’t just Donald Trump who won last night—it was his supporters too. The Klan won last night. White nationalists. Sexists, racists and buffoons. Angry young white men who think rap music and Cinco de Mayo are a threat to their way of life (or are the reason for their way of life) have been given cause to celebrate. Men who have no right to call themselves that and who think that women who aspire to more than looking hot are shrill, ugly, and otherwise worthy of our scorn rather than our admiration struck a blow for misogynistic shitheads everywhere. Hate was given hope. Abject dumbness was glamorized as being “the fresh voice of an outsider” who’s going to “shake things up.” (Did anyone bother to ask how? Is he going to re-arrange the chairs in the Roosevelt Room?) For the next four years, the President of the United States, the same office held by Washington and Jefferson, Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt, F.D.R., J.F.K. and Barack Obama, will be held by a man-boy who’ll spend his hours exacting Twitter vengeance against all who criticize him (and those numbers will be legion). We’ve embarrassed ourselves in front of our children and the world.
And the world took no time to react. The Dow futures dropped 7,000 points overnight. Economists are predicting a deep and prolonged recession. Our NATO allies are in a state of legitimate fear. And speaking of fear, Muslim-Americans, Mexican-Americans and African-Americans are shaking in their shoes. And we’d be right to note that many of Donald Trump’s fans are not fans of Jews. On the other hand, there is a party going on at ISIS headquarters. What wouldn’t we give to trade this small fraction of a man for Richard Nixon right now?
So what do we do?
First of all, we remember that we’re not alone. A hundred million people in America and a billion more around the world feel exactly the same way we do.
Second, we get out of bed. The Trumpsters want to see people like us (Jewish, “coastal elites,” educated, socially progressive, Hollywood…) sobbing and wailing and talking about moving to Canada. I won’t give them that and neither will you. Here’s what we’ll do…
…we’ll fecking fight. (Roxy, there’s a time for this kind of language and it’s now.) We’re not powerless and we’re not voiceless. We don’t have majorities in the House or Senate but we do have representatives there. It’s also good to remember that most members of Trump’s own party feel exactly the same way about him that we do. We make sure that the people we sent to Washington—including Kamala Harris—take our strength with them and never take a day off.
We get involved. We do what we can to fight injustice anywhere we see it—whether it’s writing a check or rolling up our sleeves. Our family is fairly insulated from the effects of a Trump presidency so we fight for the families that aren’t. We fight for a woman to keep her right to choose. We fight for the First Amendment and we fight mostly for equality—not for a guarantee of equal outcomes but for equal opportunities. We stand up.
America didn’t stop being America last night and we didn’t stop being Americans and here’s the thing about Americans: Our darkest days have always—always—been followed by our finest hours.
Roxy, I know my predictions have let you down in the past, but personally, I don’t think this guy can make it a year without committing an impeachable crime. If he does manage to be a douche nozzle without breaking the law for four years, we’ll make it through those four years. And three years from now we’ll fight like hell for our candidate and we’ll win and they’ll lose and this time they’ll lose for good. Honey, it’ll be your first vote.
The battle isn’t over, it’s just begun. Grandpa fought in World War II and when he came home this country handed him an opportunity to make a great life for his family. I will not hand his granddaughter a country shaped by hateful and stupid men. Your tears last night woke me up, and I’ll never go to sleep on you again.
Love,
Dad
The Oscar-winning screenwriter of The Social Network and mastermind behind The West Wing reacts to Donald Trump being elected the 45th president of the United States in a moving letter written to his 15-year-old daughter Roxy and her mother Julia Sorkin.
by
NOVEMBER 9, 2016
Sorkin Girls,
Well the world changed late last night in a way I couldn’t protect us from. That’s a terrible feeling for a father. I won’t sugarcoat it—this is truly horrible. It’s hardly the first time my candidate didn’t win (in fact it’s the sixth time) but it is the first time that a thoroughly incompetent pig with dangerous ideas, a serious psychiatric disorder, no knowledge of the world and no curiosity to learn has.
And it wasn’t just Donald Trump who won last night—it was his supporters too. The Klan won last night. White nationalists. Sexists, racists and buffoons. Angry young white men who think rap music and Cinco de Mayo are a threat to their way of life (or are the reason for their way of life) have been given cause to celebrate. Men who have no right to call themselves that and who think that women who aspire to more than looking hot are shrill, ugly, and otherwise worthy of our scorn rather than our admiration struck a blow for misogynistic shitheads everywhere. Hate was given hope. Abject dumbness was glamorized as being “the fresh voice of an outsider” who’s going to “shake things up.” (Did anyone bother to ask how? Is he going to re-arrange the chairs in the Roosevelt Room?) For the next four years, the President of the United States, the same office held by Washington and Jefferson, Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt, F.D.R., J.F.K. and Barack Obama, will be held by a man-boy who’ll spend his hours exacting Twitter vengeance against all who criticize him (and those numbers will be legion). We’ve embarrassed ourselves in front of our children and the world.
And the world took no time to react. The Dow futures dropped 7,000 points overnight. Economists are predicting a deep and prolonged recession. Our NATO allies are in a state of legitimate fear. And speaking of fear, Muslim-Americans, Mexican-Americans and African-Americans are shaking in their shoes. And we’d be right to note that many of Donald Trump’s fans are not fans of Jews. On the other hand, there is a party going on at ISIS headquarters. What wouldn’t we give to trade this small fraction of a man for Richard Nixon right now?
So what do we do?
First of all, we remember that we’re not alone. A hundred million people in America and a billion more around the world feel exactly the same way we do.
Second, we get out of bed. The Trumpsters want to see people like us (Jewish, “coastal elites,” educated, socially progressive, Hollywood…) sobbing and wailing and talking about moving to Canada. I won’t give them that and neither will you. Here’s what we’ll do…
…we’ll fecking fight. (Roxy, there’s a time for this kind of language and it’s now.) We’re not powerless and we’re not voiceless. We don’t have majorities in the House or Senate but we do have representatives there. It’s also good to remember that most members of Trump’s own party feel exactly the same way about him that we do. We make sure that the people we sent to Washington—including Kamala Harris—take our strength with them and never take a day off.
We get involved. We do what we can to fight injustice anywhere we see it—whether it’s writing a check or rolling up our sleeves. Our family is fairly insulated from the effects of a Trump presidency so we fight for the families that aren’t. We fight for a woman to keep her right to choose. We fight for the First Amendment and we fight mostly for equality—not for a guarantee of equal outcomes but for equal opportunities. We stand up.
America didn’t stop being America last night and we didn’t stop being Americans and here’s the thing about Americans: Our darkest days have always—always—been followed by our finest hours.
Roxy, I know my predictions have let you down in the past, but personally, I don’t think this guy can make it a year without committing an impeachable crime. If he does manage to be a douche nozzle without breaking the law for four years, we’ll make it through those four years. And three years from now we’ll fight like hell for our candidate and we’ll win and they’ll lose and this time they’ll lose for good. Honey, it’ll be your first vote.
The battle isn’t over, it’s just begun. Grandpa fought in World War II and when he came home this country handed him an opportunity to make a great life for his family. I will not hand his granddaughter a country shaped by hateful and stupid men. Your tears last night woke me up, and I’ll never go to sleep on you again.
Love,
Dad