Transgender rights discussion

You're not Mill or Bastiat, just a troll.

No, i am someone that understands there are many forms of liberalism from reading a book and not some clown that sees 'classic liberal', and thinks "oh he's talking about a modern liberal"
I cant help you with your own education, you can only do that yourself, or continue to play the dunce, upto you.
 
No, i am someone that understands there are many forms of libertarianism from reading a book and not some clown that sees 'classic liberal', and thinks "oh he's talking about a modern liberal"
I cant help you with your own education, you can only do that yourself, or continue to play the dunce, upto you.

What's this new act you got going, then, you're pretending I believe Mill and Bastiat were modern day liberals?
 
Yes because thats been the reference point all along :rolleyes:

Anyway, night xxxx

Me: You're no Bastiat or Mill.
You: Wow, you believe classical liberals are the same as modern day liberals? You better read some books.

Unhinged.
 
I explained this to the person that said it died, but a pretty big account latched onto it.

Yes, I know, you said that already. What does it matter that "a pretty big account latched onto it"? What value does it serve? Just to point out that people people say these sorts of things? We know that already. I'm sure that pretty big account has shared lots of different things, but this is the one you chose to share with us. It didn't really add anything of value that the first tweet didn't give us.

Perhaps I am just trying to be offended, but I'm also just trying to suss out your motivation with that particular post.
 
Their subreddit just got banned for being too transphobic, quite an achievment on Reddit.
 
So this thread is just a bunch of men angry with her for having an opinion?

Seems a bit dismissive and reductionist, but you do you.

I can see you're the little guard dog of this thread, which is cute.

It's just an observation that whenever women start speaking, they're usually shouted down.
 
I can see you're the little guard dog of this thread, which is cute.

It's just an observation that whenever women start speaking, they're usually shouted down.
So that's what's going on here? We're all angry with her for daring to have an opinion? And here I though we were calling her out for her transphobia. Well feck, I guess I accidentally did a sexism then.
 
Nothing creates aggression amongst ignorant and arrogant louts like a marginalised group speaking out.

It's just an observation that whenever there's a section of society getting grief, some ignorant lout will arrogantly show up and make some snide, unspecific, one line dismissal in order to try and get the final boot in.

The cowardice and dishonesty is disgusting. If you have a point that you think can stand up to scrutiny, on such a sensitive issue, then have the fecking guts to lay it out there.
 
Nothing creates aggression amongst ignorant and arrogant louts like a marginalised group speaking out.

It's just an observation that whenever there's a section of society getting grief, some ignorant lout will arrogantly show up and make some snide, unspecific, one line dismissal in order to try and get the final boot in.

The cowardice and dishonesty is disgusting. If you have a point that you think can stand up to scrutiny, on such a sensitive issue, then have the fecking guts to lay it out there.

Fecking guts? Are you OK? Totally normal levels of anger there.

Anyway, I believe that if you have any critique of gender science or an opinion on the subject that doesn't land squarely within a very narrow groupthink, people start thinking you're a bigot.

It's symptomatic of online discourse in general but more so on this subject perhaps on any other.

The pattern I keep seeing is of a group that, at times, displays the negative gender traits of men; toxic discourse, aggression, speaking over people, shutting down debate, insults etc.

These traits that have been highlighted by feminism to try and educate men to check their behaviour when working with women for example.

Is this entirely true of an entire group of people or a specific gender? Of course not.

But when you bring this up, the conversation starts to resemble the "not all men" trope, i.e. the reaction to a critique of a gender or, a subject to do with gender identity, is taken to mean everyone in that group is being attacked, by people really just being reactionary.

I think my general malaise over this subject, through the lens of social media, is that there is pretty much zero nuance and it is utterly tribal. Insofar as to the fact most people take a point at face value because it was made by a person they agreed with on another subject.

I have had the reaction to this statement be something, like "Nuance?! We are talking about people's lives here and their lived experiences you terf!"

Outside of fringe groups of bigots or trolls or actual Nazi's I don't see people calling for the removal of trans people from that public life, nor their expulsion from society, or their extermination. Yet, when you enter into this discourse or raise a point, usually you are labelled as an agitator or a coward or a terf or a bigot who is enabling those fringe and rare views.

Do I believe transphobia exists? Yes. Unequivocally so.

Do I believe there are glaring inconsistencies with queer theory and the current ideas around gender? Absolutely.

Are women who raise concerns about the side effects of changing legislation which might enable dangerous men to have easier access to vulnerable women bigots? No.

Am I saying some people will use the above statement as cover to justify their existing transphobia? Yeah, I'd say some would.

Does this mean we should ignore the concerns of women, who are, let's not forget, a protected class of people? In my opinion no.

Should we seek to enable trans women to have the ultimate possible protections and civil liberties in society that we all should have? Unequivocally yes.

Should vulnerable transwomen be allowed to use the female restrooms and protected spaces? I believe so.

Should we remove all protections and allow anyone to enter a female only spaces? I think this idea increases risks and should be discussed.

How do we maintain safeguarding of women in their protected spaces while we enable the correct and needed protections and rights for transwomen? This will be a conundrum all the while men continue to be a threat to women.

What if women vote en mass that they don't want this, through fear men, will use this to gain access to women? Do we ignore them? Remove their right to vote? What do we do then?

There are fundamental questions on this subject that need to be discussed. At no point am I wanting to discuss the legitimacy of TW, nor do I want to deny them polite, caring, consistent societies that enable them to flourish and be who they are.

Rounding off this rather long post (apologies), I don't believe J.K Rowling is a transphobe or transphobic. I read her open letter and really struggled to see the furor it was generating online. I am inclined to believe people read reviews of it on pinknews or via a tweet thread than actually read it for themselves.

What I also find funny is that people are slating her writing and her books now she has written her letter, like it wasn't obvious she was a shocking writer beforehand.
 
Fecking guts? Are you OK? Totally normal levels of anger there.

Anyway, I believe that if you have any critique of gender science or an opinion on the subject that doesn't land squarely within a very narrow groupthink, people start thinking you're a bigot.

It's symptomatic of online discourse in general but more so on this subject perhaps on any other.

The pattern I keep seeing is of a group that, at times, displays the negative gender traits of men; toxic discourse, aggression, speaking over people, shutting down debate, insults etc.

These traits that have been highlighted by feminism to try and educate men to check their behaviour when working with women for example.

Is this entirely true of an entire group of people or a specific gender? Of course not.

But when you bring this up, the conversation starts to resemble the "not all men" trope, i.e. the reaction to a critique of a gender or, a subject to do with gender identity, is taken to mean everyone in that group is being attacked, by people really just being reactionary.

I think my general malaise over this subject, through the lens of social media, is that there is pretty much zero nuance and it is utterly tribal. Insofar as to the fact most people take a point at face value because it was made by a person they agreed with on another subject.

I have had the reaction to this statement be something, like "Nuance?! We are talking about people's lives here and their lived experiences you terf!"

Outside of fringe groups of bigots or trolls or actual Nazi's I don't see people calling for the removal of trans people from that public life, nor their expulsion from society, or their extermination. Yet, when you enter into this discourse or raise a point, usually you are labelled as an agitator or a coward or a terf or a bigot who is enabling those fringe and rare views.

Do I believe transphobia exists? Yes. Unequivocally so.

Do I believe there are glaring inconsistencies with queer theory and the current ideas around gender? Absolutely.

Are women who raise concerns about the side effects of changing legislation which might enable dangerous men to have easier access to vulnerable women bigots? No.

Am I saying some people will use the above statement as cover to justify their existing transphobia? Yeah, I'd say some would.

Does this mean we should ignore the concerns of women, who are, let's not forget, a protected class of people? In my opinion no.

Should we seek to enable trans women to have the ultimate possible protections and civil liberties in society that we all should have? Unequivocally yes.

Should vulnerable transwomen be allowed to use the female restrooms and protected spaces? I believe so.

Should we remove all protections and allow anyone to enter a female only spaces? I think this idea increases risks and should be discussed.

How do we maintain safeguarding of women in their protected spaces while we enable the correct and needed protections and rights for transwomen? This will be a conundrum all the while men continue to be a threat to women.

What if women vote en mass that they don't want this, through fear men, will use this to gain access to women? Do we ignore them? Remove their right to vote? What do we do then?

There are fundamental questions on this subject that need to be discussed. At no point am I wanting to discuss the legitimacy of TW, nor do I want to deny them polite, caring, consistent societies that enable them to flourish and be who they are.

Rounding off this rather long post (apologies), I don't believe J.K Rowling is a transphobe or transphobic. I read her open letter and really struggled to see the furor it was generating online. I am inclined to believe people read reviews of it on pinknews or via a tweet thread than actually read it for themselves.

What I also find funny is that people are slating her writing and her books now she has written her letter, like it wasn't obvious she was a shocking writer beforehand.
Genuinely baffling how one can still come to that conclusion.
 
Rounding off this rather long post (apologies), I don't believe J.K Rowling is a transphobe or transphobic. I read her open letter and really struggled to see the furor it was generating online.
Unt3d-1.jpg


A clown.
 
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Would you mind clarifying what you mean by this?

I think it was clear, he's bisexual so to him it is a choice, he swings both ways but is obviously frustrated by a lack of pegging lately so comes to troll the general forums as a way for release, he needs to fill his pegging quota and quick. Bless him.

I think it's clear that he's heavily influenced by terf rhetoric, he's already played the sexism/misogyny card, he's well on the way of getting a full house in terf bingo.

I bet he has a poster of Linehan on his bedroom wall.
 
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I wish we could talk about things without reducing everything to an acronym and a label. Using "terf" sounds a lot like right wing using "cancel culture". I feel like it does more harm than good.

If it's transphobic it's better to just say transphobic. Then, the meaning is clear and obvious.

I admit I dislike acronym heavy dialogue wherever it's used, be it corporate acronyms or university acronyms. They aren't good communication imo.
 
I see what you did there... Not sure if serious...

I'm serious about hating acronym-heavy speech but its a minor issue compared to things like transphobia so no need to take me too serious with my tangential rant
 
I'm serious about hating acronym-heavy speech but its a minor issue compared to things like transphobia so no need to take me too serious with my tangential rant
You ranted about acronyms and then ended it with IMO.

Do you not see the irony?

You also deflected conversation away from the real issue which tends to happen a lot when a minority being attacked is under discussion.

TERF a phrase coined by Radical Feminists is completely apt and fair to use in the context of this thread. You don't like acronym-heavy language yet join a thread which specifically uses that language in the title just to rant? I would tell you to get the #eck out but that acronym is actually banned on here.
 
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You ranted about acronyms and then ended it with IMO.

Do you not see the irony?

You also deflected conversation away from the real issue which tends to happen a lot when a minority being attacked is under discussion.

TERF a phrase coined by Radical Feminists is completely apt and fair to use in the context of this thread. You don't like acronym-heavy language yet join a thread which specifically uses that language in the title just to rant? I would tell you to get the #eck out but that acronym is actually banned on here.

From my experience, it's far more effective to communicate and reach people without using some acronym. It's more effective to just say "this is transphobic" which I assume is the main point: educating people. Fair enough if you disagree, but acronyms as labels tend to shut down communication/education from my experience.