Transgender Athletes

stepic said:
please show me where i have stated that there is literally no difference between a cis and trans person.
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stepic said:
if she comes third and therefore strips a cis woman of third, then so be it. the cis woman who now finished 4th also lost to 2 other cis women, so what's the difference?
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This is an example of pretending that the are no differences. The difference is that the cis woman lost a spot to a male, a male that has biological advantages. Which is the entire issue.

PS: I did make a mistake in my post to Carolina Red when I used women instead of cis women or females.
 
maniak said:
But school sports should not be. You just agreed to that. So lets make that distinction between professional sports and school sports. If scholarships are that much of a concern, just add a few more, I doubt the number of transgender girls getting scholarships would be that big to actually make a difference to universities.
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Yes, I agree that school sports, but at some stage, later on at school, those sports start to matter (especially in the States), because they can garner places in college. So I get your point "just offer more scholarships or places at college" but I am not sure how this helps or solves the wider challenges of this situation.
 
JPRouve said:
This is an example of pretending that the are no differences. The difference is that the cis woman lost a spot to a male, a male that has biological advantages. Which is the entire issue.

PS: I did make a mistake in my post to Carolina Red when I used women instead of cis women or females.
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trans and cis women are both women.

there is a difference between a blonde-haired woman and a brunette, but they're still both women.

hope this helps.
 
stepic said:
trans and cis women are both women.

there is a difference between a blonde-haired woman and a brunette, but they're still both women.

hope this helps.
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So you are suggesting that the differences between a cis and trans woman are similar to the differences between two people with different hair pigmentation. That's interesting.
 
JPRouve said:
And we are talking about elite sport which includes schools sports. We are talking about high level competitive sport at local, state, national and global level. I could be wrong but you seem to think that the issue concerns leisure sports, in which case we agree categories aren't important.
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Apparently some folks think that school sports are akin to playing hit and giggle croquet in the back yard.
 
Carolina Red said:
So you don't think there should be tryouts and cuts for school sports?
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It seems that we're just ignoring that at any level and any age group, competitive sports is, by its nature, exclusionary to at least some degree.

An interest in a sport is not necessarily always enough to facilitate your inclusion in a competitive version of it.
 
Alex99 said:
It seems that we're just ignoring that at any level and any age group, competitive sports is, by its nature, exclusionary to at least some degree.

An interest in a sport is not necessarily always enough to facilitate your inclusion in a competitive version of it.
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Agreed.
 
Carolina Red said:
Apparently some folks think that school sports are akin to playing hit and giggle croquet in the back yard.
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It reads like that. In France you have PE, leisure sports(at all ages) and competitive sports. The later is systematically divided by categories whether it is skills level, sex, weight or age.
 
JPRouve said:
It reads like that. In France you have PE, leisure sports(at all ages) and competitive sports. The later is systematically divided by categories whether it is skills level, sex, weight or age.
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That is pretty much exactly how we are divided up here in the US also.

Not only that, but schools are divided up into divisions based on enrollment as well. That way you don't have a school like mine (over 2000 kids) going up against a school like my buddy's (450 kids) for a state title.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Maybe the best compromise would be to allow trans women to compete in women's sports up to a certain point. Once it gets to the level of National or State championships then that would be limited to women athletes who did not go through male puberty. I recognize that won't please everyone but I think it might be the best way to accommodate the "average" trans woman's ability to compete in sports for health, camaraderie, etc while also ensuring that advantages gained from male puberty do not skew the most competitive levels of competition.

I realize some from both sides might not like that compromise but, to me at least, it seems like it would be fair to the greatest number of people.
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I guess the older the kids get, the more room there would be for compromise, for sure. Kids are more developed, more mature, etc. the would be more rrom to understand the needs of professional sports. Banning young teenagers from sports should a big no from everyone, but I guess there's where we're at.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Yes, I agree that school sports, but at some stage, later on at school, those sports start to matter (especially in the States), because they can garner places in college. So I get your point "just offer more scholarships or places at college" but I am not sure how this helps or solves the wider challenges of this situation.
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It would at least solve one of the points those who support these bans bring up more often, which is some girls would miss on scholarships. And it's an important one to address because so many people get hung up on that, when the number of transgender girls who would get scholarships because of sports would be such a ridiculous small number, that wasting all this time and energy on this point is just a waste of everyone's time.
 
Carolina Red said:
I love how you keep bringing up a conclusion that I've yet to see anyone in this thread suggest.
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You're literally willing exclude a part of the population from something as healthy and important as sports in the name of some professionalized view of high school sports. That sounds pretty unhealthy to me.
 
Transgender should have their own division/category etc, simple as. No debate, no feckwiteey, if you disagree your either thick or a WUM.
 
LilyWhiteSpur said:
Transgender should have their own division/category etc, simple as. No debate, no feckwiteey, if you disagree your either thick or a WUM.
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What would you do with the single transgender girl in the entire school who wants to play volleyball? A team just for her where she would play against other teams with one player each?
 
maniak said:
What would you do with the single transgender girl in the entire school who wants to play volleyball? A team just for her where she would play against other teams with one player each?
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Your telling me you would give her a massive advantage over the rest? If so why? What is your reasoning?

if you answer me this one question honestly I’ll bow to you, what would you do with the disabled girl in a wheelchair who wants to play volleyball?
 
LilyWhiteSpur said:
Your telling me you would give her a massive advantage over the rest?

if you answer me this one question honestly I’ll bow you on you, what would you do with the disabled girl in a wheelchair who wants to play volleyball?
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Massive advantage? The most recent studies seem to show when kids transition very young, before starting high school sports, the advantages are minimal or nonexistent, depending on the sport. So why exclude this hypothetical girl from something as important as sports because of something so insignificant? I repeat, this is not the olympics we're talking about, it's high school volleyball.

So not to run away from your question, even if this would give her an advantage, yes, I would still want her to play.

Now you, are you ready to tell me you would deprive millions of kids from playing sports because of this small or nonexistent advantage? Just be honest mate.
 
maniak said:
Massive advantage? The most recent studies seem to show when kids transition very young, before starting high school sports, the advantages are minimal or nonexistent, depending on the sport. So why exclude this hypothetical girl from something as important as sports because of something so insignificant? I repeat, this is not the olympics we're talking about, it's high school volleyball.

So not to run away from your question, even if this would give her an advantage, yes, I would still want her to play.

Now you, are you ready to tell me you would deprive millions of kids from playing sports because of this small or nonexistent advantage? Just be honest mate.
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Most children DONT transition very young, see this is why these arguments are pointless. I am
A massive supporter of people who want to transition,I’m also a massive supporter they get what they NEED before they chose such a life changing choice. It’s a horrible thing they have to go through and mentally too handle, that doesn’t mean they get card Blanche on what they choose to do. There is a huge difference on what’s the reality and what’s possible.
 
maniak said:
Massive advantage? The most recent studies seem to show when kids transition very young, before starting high school sports, the advantages are minimal or nonexistent, depending on the sport. So why exclude this hypothetical girl from something as important as sports because of something so insignificant? I repeat, this is not the olympics we're talking about, it's high school volleyball.

So not to run away from your question, even if this would give her an advantage, yes, I would still want her to play.

Now you, are you ready to tell me you would deprive millions of kids from playing sports because of this small or nonexistent advantage? Just be honest mate.
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Are we suggesting that it's normal or desirable for kids between the age of 8 and 13, to transition?
 
LilyWhiteSpur said:
Most children DONT transition very young, see this is why these arguments are pointless. I am
A massive supporter of people who want to transition,I’m also a massive supporter they get what they NEED before they chose such a life changing choice. It’s a horrible thing they have to go through and mentally too handle, that doesn’t mean they get card Blanche on what they choose to do. There is a huge difference on what’s the reality and what’s possible.
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No answer? What happened to being honest mate?

Kids can start with blockers at age 8 or 9, so why do they have to be banned from school sports?
 
maniak said:
What would you do with the single transgender girl in the entire school who wants to play volleyball? A team just for her where she would play against other teams with one player each?
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You are aware that recreational sports exist, right?
 
JPRouve said:
Are we suggesting that it's normal or desirable for kids between the age of 8 and 13, to transition?
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There are countless cases of kids that started with puberty blockers at that age and they are perfectly healthy and happy. So what's the problem?
 
JPRouve said:
Are we suggesting that it's normal or desirable for kids between the age of 8 and 13, to transition?
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Most aren’t even considered before 14-16, and even then it’s a minority. My problem and sadly I know it’s true, as the years go by this kind of change is going to become more of an option than a need.
 
Alex99 said:
You are aware that recreational sports exist, right?
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Wow, really, tell me more?

I keep repeating myself, I wonder if people replying to me are actually reading my posts...

School sports are about inclusion, team spirit and friendship. Telling a young kid "hey, you can't join our team because of who you are, so go look for sports elsewhere" is the opposite of what school sports should be.

Of course if you only look at it as being about competition, winning and getting future advantages, and for that you're willing to feck millions of kids over, then just come out and say it.
 
maniak said:
There are countless cases of kids that started with puberty blockers at that age and they are perfectly healthy and happy. So what's the problem?
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Are they perfectly happy? How did they determined that they needed or wanted to transition? We are talking about 8 to 13 years old kids.

I'll be honest with you, I didn't know who I was or what I was at that age and it would have been madness to let me do something that is that life altering.
 
JPRouve said:
Are they perfectly happy? How did they determined that they needed or wanted to transition? We are talking about 8 to 13 years old kids.

I'll be honest with you, I didn't know who I was or what I was at that age and it would have been madness to let me do something that is that life altering.
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Yes, they are. Last Week Tonight did a show about this recently, you should give it a watch, it's brilliant seeing those kids so happy because they're allowed to be who they are.

Nothing is done to these kids that can't be reverted later, we're talking about puberty blockers mostly, not surgery or other permanent alterations.
 
maniak said:
I'm portuguese, mate.

Still haven't told me if you're ok with excluding transgender kids from school sports or not.
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Give me an example and il look and decide. But il stick my neck out and say no, a born male should not be competing in a female sport. There is simply a natural advantage, and if she wants to play she should play as a male, what’s the problem with that?
 
maniak said:
You're literally willing exclude a part of the population from something as healthy and important as sports in the name of some professionalized view of high school sports. That sounds pretty unhealthy to me.
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Oh yeah? I welcome you to quote where I literally said to exclude them from participating in sports. Competing against males =/= exclusion, last I checked.
maniak said:
Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying, let's have 50 players basketball teams :rolleyes:
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Original comment: Sports are inherently a meritocracy and exclusionary.

Your response: But school sports should not be.

So what are tryouts and cuts other than meritocracy and exclusion?
 
maniak said:
Yes, they are. Last Week Tonight did a show about this recently, you should give it a watch, it's brilliant seeing those kids so happy because they're allowed to be who they are.

Nothing is done to these kids that can't be reverted later, we're talking about puberty blockers mostly, not surgery or other permanent alterations.
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Tonight? Your a talksport listener Yes?
 
LilyWhiteSpur said:
Give me an example and il look and decide. But il stick my neck out and say no, a born male should not be competing in a female sport. There is simply a natural advantage, and if she wants to play she should play as a male, what’s the problem with that?
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What do you mean an example? There are literally millions of transgender kids who want to play sports.

Yeah, let's introduce a teenage girl to sports by competing with boys and sharing locker rooms with them. What could possibly go wrong.
 
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