And cardiovascular / respiratory advantages
Transgender Athletes
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If you think it’s not difficult do you think there is a simple solution? What do you think that is?
I forgot about that.
i'm not ignoring it, i'm just saying trans women deserve the opportunity to participate with the rest of the other women.
given trans women are women, how is looking out for the rights of women not caring about women exactly?
please don't quote snippets of a post to make a point. what's the difference between a cis woman finishing 4th behind 2 other cis women and 1 other trans woman? all 3 of them likely had natural advantages over the woman who finished 4th, but it's only an issue when the woman is trans and not cis? do you see why that sounds problematic?
i'd rather not get into a quote-a-thon, but i'd be interested in seeing your data which shows lia thomas wins the majority of her races.
as for Serena Williams, she is an example of a physically dominant presence on the tennis court, which highlights the advantages she had over other women. frankly i don't appreciate the racist implications in your post. it's not racist to suggest Serena was a physically dominant tennis player, to go along with all her other technical and mental talents.
Do transwomen have the same bone structure than cis-women? Are transwomen females?
This is the point you seem to be continuously missing. For all intents and purposes, and in most facets of day to day life they are women. But trans women being women has a limitation - and that limitation is when we're talking specifically about the sporting arena. Do you understand this point?
The reason why there's a limitation in this specific context is because of inherent genetic differences that give trans woman a distinct advantage when compared to women. Do you understand this point?
If you understand these two points, then that's great, and we can begin to move on the discussion on to what would be a fair resolution that isn't simply 'poor wee cis women should just accept their sporting achievements being diminished'.
i didn't realise bone structure was what defined a woman. what else, their ability to make babies?
are trans women women, JP?
honestly, this thread. you just have to scratch a little.
That is quite the change of subject from what you actually typed.
Honestly, grow up. Most posters are debating this in good faith without your continuous moaning and whining.
clearly you don't bother reading.
it's the root of the entire discussion.
I’m just saying it’s good of you to decide that, for all trans people.
But she was still female. I should post the source but I know it's been suggested she wouldn't beat any male player due to the inherent biological differences between men and women.
edit: comment on quora in relation to her level and who she'd be beaten by - "mid-level male college player or very strong high school aged player" (https://www.quora.com/Can-Serena-Williams-beat-any-of-the-5-top-ranked-male-players)
This seems to be based on some sort of universal tennis rating - https://www.universaltennis.com
I totally get what you're saying, but can't you just say "I don't think a transgender woman should participate with cis women in boxing because they might have an unfair physical advantage"? I mean, I've heard transgender women say this. Your point would be made and you won't need to use a term normally used to offend them by bigots. Win win.
Bone structure is affected by your biological sex and the balance of hormones that you have during your growth from gestation to the end of puberty. That's the main reason behind the physical and athletic differences between males and females. It's also why males and females are separated in sport and why males on average are superior athletes, they have big advantages.
Is a transwoman a woman? Maybe, I don't really know because people like yourself blur the lines, when it suits you, you talk about transwomen and ciswomen which implies that there is a distinction and other times you reduce it to women.
Maybe best guess is that a transwoman is considered a male that identify as a woman. And in this conversation the key context is male vs female.
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You are laughable
Stick to making shit threads in the other forums dude.
One of the many crazy things to this whole debate is when people repeatedly point out that the number of trans women competing in women’s sports (yet) is very low, while also arguing that the fact we’re not seeing a trans women dominate any sport (yet) means there’s nothing to worry about. Do you think the two might be connected?
You see a similar tortured logic when discussing the the biological advantages of going through puberty as a male. Getting hung up on tiny sample sizes relating the performance of trans women. When all you really need to do is look at the enormous body of evidence from mens vs women sports over the last century. There’s a huge gulf between the world records in basically any sport you can think of. There’s an obvious reason for this.
You see a similar tortured logic when discussing the the biological advantages of going through puberty as a male. Getting hung up on tiny sample sizes relating the performance of trans women. When all you really need to do is look at the enormous body of evidence from mens vs women sports over the last century. There’s a huge gulf between the world records in basically any sport you can think of. There’s an obvious reason for this.
trans in an adjective, just like brown-haired is an adjective. a woman with brown hair is still a woman... right?
it might help if you stopped using the terf dog whistle spelling of 'transwoman' and write it out properly.
Fair enough, can you explain to me what the cis and trans adjectives designate?
You realize that the NCAA keeps records, right?
NCAAs
1st - 500y free
5th - 200y free
8th - 100y free
Ivy League Championships
1st - 500y free
1st - 200y free
1st - 100y free
Penn vs Dartmouth & Yale
1st - 500y free
1st - 200y free
6th - 100y free
Zippy Invitational
1st - 1650y free
1st - 500y free
1st - 200y free
5th - 50y free
Penn vs Princeton & Cornell
1st - 500y free
1st - 200y free
1st - 100y free
Penn vs Brown
1st - 1000y free
1st - 500y free
1st - 200y free
Penn vs Villanova
1st - 500y free
1st - 200y free
1st - 100y free
Penn vs Columbia
1st - 200y free
1st - 100y free
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/18/9787...s-have-an-unfair-edge-what-does-the-science-s
I particularly like this line:
I think this gets lost in this debate. For the sake of some high school wins which 99% of people forget all about (I have a bunch of medals from basketball and handball I don't really care about nowadays, I guess it's the same for most who won sports events in high school) we are sacrificing the well being of an entire group, a group already very vulnerable because of discrimination pretty much everywhere.
https://sites.tufts.edu/cmph357/202...letes-access-to-sports-is-a-healthcare-issue/
The conversation quickly moves to professional sports. But if we stick to school sports, I honestly can't understand how some are so willing to add to the misery of an already targeted group.
I particularly like this line:
I think this gets lost in this debate. For the sake of some high school wins which 99% of people forget all about (I have a bunch of medals from basketball and handball I don't really care about nowadays, I guess it's the same for most who won sports events in high school) we are sacrificing the well being of an entire group, a group already very vulnerable because of discrimination pretty much everywhere.
https://sites.tufts.edu/cmph357/202...letes-access-to-sports-is-a-healthcare-issue/
The conversation quickly moves to professional sports. But if we stick to school sports, I honestly can't understand how some are so willing to add to the misery of an already targeted group.
Amazing then how so many HS coaches get fired for losing
Perhaps a
please don't quote snippets of a post to make a point. what's the difference between a cis woman finishing 4th behind 2 other cis women and 1 other trans woman? all 3 of them likely had natural advantages over the woman who finished 4th, but it's only an issue when the woman is trans and not cis? do you see why that sounds problematic?
Because they might miss the podium. They might miss an opportunity for a scholarship. The sacrifices they made to be able to come third have been pushed aside. Also, it wasn't a snippet, everyone can read your post here, my point is the blaise attitude to where women athletes finish as if it doesn't matter (get rid of podiums then) is symptomatic of a wider mentality that women do not matter and have to accommodate, or else they're troublesome bigots.
as for Serena Williams, she is an example of a physically dominant presence on the tennis court, which highlights the advantages she had over other women. frankly i don't appreciate the racist implications in your post. it's not racist to suggest Serena was a physically dominant tennis player, to go along with all her other technical and mental talents.
I am not implying anything, it's just curious that every day I see this debate taking place on Twitter or Reddit, one side always invokes WoC when discussing trans women and I've seen many WoC dislike this because they're being compared, again, to people not biologically female. For what it is worth, I don't think you're racist, it's just I want to call out this observation as I think it is clumsy and a little odd.
What is also interesting is Serena and Venus played a male tennis player in an exhibition and were rounding beaten. Serena is also on record as saying she wouldn't want to play in the mens game when asked, as it is, to quote "so much faster, quicker and they hit the ball much harder".
We do have to approach this in a way that enables trans women to not be excluded but to balance this with fairness with cis-women. I won't be solved overnight but debate and dialogue is good in my opinion.
Good lord, please don't post that cretin Matt Walsh in here.
Walsh sucks. The person he’s interviewing, however, was a teammate of Lia Thomas.
This is a good observation. It goes from discussing gender identity, to biological sex, then to identity again. The goalposts always seem to move.
I showed you where her times place her; 8th, 1st, 5th etc. That is across all women. So she went from 550th to top ten.
I agree, when it comes to PE or primary and secondary school sports, I think inclusivity is a better route. I suppose stateside, athletes are selected out of high school - it's a lot different to the UK.
Huh? What's the right way of spelling trans woman/transwoman?
Yeah, it's absurd. They shouldn't be, let's fix that unhealthy mentality instead of banning kids from sports.
Does that extend to every levels and context? Regardless of safety, finances, scholarships, etc?
In a non-competitve context sports could be unisex but in a competitive context, females would be largely excluded from top level sports around the age of 13-15 years old.
Can you clarify your first question?
School sports should only be competitive in a healthy way, never coming on the back of exclusion. I've read that kids who start transitioning very early have little no no advantage when they are 13. Even if they have, it will be so small and happen so rarely, that in my view it is not a good argument to justify excluding kids from school sports.
I’m with you on the school sports. Inclusivity should be the number one aim of school sports. Making sure as many kids as possible play sports. Everything else is secondary in importance.
I think the US complicates things though. They take school sports super seriously and that influences stuff like scholarships to university etc. In the UK/Europe elite young athletes are more likely to be competing at the highest possible level for a club rather than for a school team.
I can't make it clearer. There are direct consequences for girls and young women. For every transwoman that reach the top of woman sport, you have a cis-woman that lost a scholarship or lost the opportunity to glory or money. Being good at a certain level at youth level opens doors to better academies, better schools, better competitions, better education and so on.
And you are over egging the exclusion angle, very little people would have an issue with transwomen or transmen competing in male sports, in fact we are talking about people that were officially competing and not excluded.
PS: People do have an issue with transmen competing in sports combat for safety reasons.
i reckon you can probably google it yourself. it's pretty basic, clear language.
is this the entirety of her races? i was trying to find her overall record but couldn't.
but it's OK for a trans woman to miss an opportunity for a scholarship? i'm not being blasé, i'm just advocating for inclusion. again, it only seems to be an issue if a cis woman finishes behind a trans woman, not another cis woman, who may also have superior genetics or opportunity or any host of other advantages. there is an issue with that for me.
yes, it's trans woman. trans is an adjective. you don't spell it brunettewoman do you?
Nope, you tell me. You used the distinction, you qualify it.
Then you have an issue with the whole concept of competitive sport. Which is strange for someone posting on a website dedicated to exactly that.
Yes, this is a good point.