Pogue, can you stop posting stuff I agree with, it's making me lightheaded.
Transgender Athletes
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Murder on Zidanes Floor
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but it's OK for a trans woman to miss an opportunity for a scholarship? i'm not being blasé, i'm just advocating for inclusion. again, it only seems to be an issue if a cis woman finishes behind a trans woman, not another cis woman, who may also have superior genetics or opportunity or any host of other advantages. there is an issue with that for me.i reckon you can probably google it yourself. it's pretty basic, clear language.
is this the entirety of her races? i was trying to find her overall record but couldn't.
but it's OK for a trans woman to miss an opportunity for a scholarship? i'm not being blasé, i'm just advocating for inclusion. again, it only seems to be an issue if a cis woman finishes behind a trans woman, not another cis woman, who may also have superior genetics or opportunity or any host of other advantages. there is an issue with that for me.
yes, it's trans woman. trans is an adjective. you don't spell it brunettewoman do you?
While it is not OK, trans women already missed an opportunity for a scholarship because they no longer compete in their birth sex category, nor places high enough to receive a scholarship offer.
Athletic scholarships are inherently exclusionary. You have to hit certain criteria to receive one. They don't give them to every athlete. Sports are inherently a meritocracy and exclusionary. If you want to make a critique and campaign for removing athletic scholarships to top Ivy League colleges, that's fine I guess. Unfortunately, it doesn't change the fact that if Lia Thomas didn't transition, they wouldn't be winning the top races or having access to the prizes and opportunities that open up to those who excel athletically in college.
OK, why not add extra scholarships? Isn't that better than excluding young kids from sports, which we all know is really important for their health? More scholarships, more opportunities, no kids excluded, it seems like a better situation all around.I can't make it clearer. There are direct consequences for girls and young women. For every transwoman that reach the top of woman sport, you have a cis-woman that lost a scholarship or lost the opportunity to glory or money. Being good at a certain level at youth level opens doors to better academies, better schools, better competitions, better education and so on.
And you are over egging the exclusion angle, very little people would have an issue with transwomen or transmen competing in male sports, in fact we are talking about people that were officially competing and not excluded.
PS: People do have an issue with transmen competing in sports combat for safety reasons.
I don't think I am, we're literally seeing bills passing all over the place to exclude these kids.
That's true, it sounds more complicated in the US, but it just seems cruel (and sadly we know most politicians do it for their own selfish reasons, not because they give two shits about school sports or women's sports) that the focus seems to be on excluding these kids rather than change the system to accommodate more kids while still giving scholarships opportunitie to top athletes.I’m with you on the school sports. Inclusivity should be the number one aim of school sports. Making sure as many kids as possible play sports. Everything else is secondary in importance.
I think the US complicates things though. They take school sports super seriously and that influences stuff like scholarships to university etc. In the UK/Europe elite young athletes are more likely to be competing at the highest possible level for a club rather than for a school team.
It sure is easier to just bans transgender kids, but ultimately it's a choice.
Sports are inherently a meritocracy and exclusionary.
But school sports should not be. You just agreed to that. So lets make that distinction between professional sports and school sports. If scholarships are that much of a concern, just add a few more, I doubt the number of transgender girls getting scholarships would be that big to actually make a difference to universities.
OK, why not add extra scholarships? Isn't that better than excluding young kids from sports, which we all know is really important for their health? More scholarships, more opportunities, no kids excluded, it seems like a better situation all around.
I don't think I am, we're literally seeing bills passing all over the place to exclude these kids.
Again they are not excluded. As an example was Lia Thomas excluded before moving to female swimming? Is there actually a problem with Lia Thomas, who is born a male to compete with other male born athletes? No one prevented that and we have records of it.
And more scholarship don't fix the issue when it comes to fairness. If we stick to Lia Thomas the 500th male isn't going to get access to the same schools than the 8th woman, even if you add scholarship hundreds of male and females are unfairly downgraded for no good reason.
And I would agree with you, if it was a case of exclusion but it's not.
tomaldinho1
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The only way, which isn't a perfect solution, is to just create new categories for each so you'd have mens, womens, transmens and transfemales events. There's really no other way if you want to avoid banning.
The only way, which isn't a perfect solution, is to just create new categories for each so you'd have mens, womens, transmens and transfemales events. There's really no other way if you want to avoid banning.
Male and Female categories allow females to compete at an elite level, just make male category unisex and leave female sport alone. That's an easy answer.
The Corinthian
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Male category, female category and open category is probably the best. But you could only apply for one category, with the female category ringfenced for biological females.
I can't get past the idea that women should decide what the rules are for their own particular sport and men should keep their noses out of it.
tomaldinho1
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I agree that's what it should be.Male and Female categories allow females to compete at an elite level, just make male category unisex and leave female sport alone. That's an easy answer.
I'm really not getting your point, there have been dozens of bills passed in the US to exclude transgender kids from sports. How can you argue it's not about exclusion?Again they are not excluded. As an example was Lia Thomas excluded before moving to female swimming? Is there actually a problem with Lia Thomas, who is born a male to compete with other male born athletes? No one prevented that and we have records of it.
And more scholarship don't fix the issue when it comes to fairness. If we stick to Lia Thomas the 500th male isn't going to get access to the same schools than the 8th woman, even if you add scholarship hundreds of male and females are unfairly downgraded for no good reason.
And I would agree with you, if it was a case of exclusion but it's not.
That's effectively a ban, because in most schools there simply aren't transgender kids to start teams. A transgender girl who wants to play basketball will be a team of one, if she wants to run, she will have no one to run against.The only way, which isn't a perfect solution, is to just create new categories for each so you'd have mens, womens, transmens and transfemales events. There's really no other way if you want to avoid banning.
I'm really not getting your point, there have been dozens of bills passed in the US to exclude transgender kids from sports. How can you argue it's not about exclusion?
From all categories? It's a genuine question.
A transgender 14 year old girl would have no one to form a team with and no one to compete against. It would be a ban in practice.Male category, female category and open category is probably the best. But you could only apply for one category, with the female category ringfenced for biological females.
Banning transgender girls from girls' sports.From all categories? It's a genuine question.
Banning transgender girls from girls' sports.
But not male born girls from boys categories?
Sorry I misinterpreted you. Yes, the bans apply to both transgender boys and girls.But not male born girls from boys categories?
The Corinthian
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If we're talking about school sports, the number of non-binary, and trans (both ways) people is increasing, so it'd be a reasonable assumption that she wouldn't be alone.A transgender 14 year old girl would have no one to form a team with and no one to compete against. It would be a ban in practice.
If we're talking about professional sport, the same logic applies. Team sports I guess is a whole other convo. But much of the recent discussion is centred on solo sports, so it's not a bad solution.
Sorry I misinterpreted you. Yes, the bans apply to both transgender boys and girls.
It's not my question. Are transgenred girls allowed to compete in boys competition? As an example was Lia Thomas allowed to compete in males swimming?
Very rudimentary maths, I'll give you that.If we're talking about school sports, the number of non-binary, and trans (both ways) people is increasing, so it'd be a reasonable assumption that she wouldn't be alone.
If we're talking about professional sport, the same logic applies. Team sports I guess is a whole other convo. But much of the recent discussion is centred on solo sports, so it's not a bad solution.
Numbers say there are about 300.000 transgender kids in the US, lets assume 150.000 transgender girls. There are 42.000 high schools in the US, so lets round it to 4 transgender girls per high school. Even if they all wanted to play the same sport, which is obviously irrealistic, it wouldn't be enough to start a team. So, in practice, they would be excluded from sports.
Let's say it' s a solo sport, like running. What are the odds that more than one girl would want to practice it per school? Very low, so is the school going to allocate resources, like a coach and travels to competitions for just one kid? In an ideal world, sure, in practice, this hypothetical girl would be excluded from sports.
The bills I've seen passed state kids have to compete in the category of their sex at birth. So transgender girls would be allowed to play in a boys' team I guess. But let's be honest, what girl would want to share a locker room with boys or to be constantly reminded that her school community doesn't see her for who she is? So again, in practice, it's a ban.It's not my question. Are transgenred girls allowed to compete in boys competition? As an example was Lia Thomas allowed to compete in males swimming?
Nope, you tell me. You used the distinction, you qualify it.
if you don't understand what cis and trans means, that's on you, and i suggest you plug them into google right now and you'll find out within a few seconds.
Then you have an issue with the whole concept of competitive sport. Which is strange for someone posting on a website dedicated to exactly that.
i enjoy competitive sports, sure, but i also know there is no such thing as pure equality. there is a vast array of differing natural talents, primarily between cis people. it doesn't stop our enjoyment of it, knowing some athletes are naturally more gifted than others.
in sports such as football it's even worse, with the lack of financial equality within the game.
Pogue Mahone
Closet Gooner.
When you take a step back it is a little odd that competing against cis women in sports is seen as an important part of feeling accepted as a trans woman. There’s a really nice example in this documentary of a trans woman who plays for a male football team at an international level without having to change or deny who they really are (2m05s). It helps that they come from a culture with a very long history of acceptance and integration of trans/non-binary people.
The bills I've seen passed state kids have to compete in the category of their sex at birth. So transgender girls would be allowed to play in a boys' team I guess. But let's be honest, what girl would want to share a locker room with boys or to be constantly reminded that her school community doesn't see her for who she is? So again, in practice, it's a ban.
That applies both ways. You have no issue putting a boy in girls locker room but immediately mentions that a girl wouldn't want to be in a locker room with boys.
And sport categories are partially based on sex at birth because the sex at birth creates major differences that we already mentioned in the thread. On average a male will develop in a way that gives him massive advantages against females. So in order to allow females to compete at an elite level they have their own category. Everyone is welcomed in the male categories as far as I know, at the exception of certain combat sports.
if you don't understand what cis and trans means, that's on you, and i suggest you plug them into google right now and you'll find out within a few seconds.
No, state the difference. We both know what it is and you know that it's the core issue and why you are playing this game.
I'm sorry, what? I want to put boys in girls' locker rooms? What gave you that idea?That applies both ways. You have no issue putting a boy in girls locker room but immediately mentions that a girl wouldn't want to be in a locker room with boys.
And sport categories are partially based on sex at birth because the sex at birth creates major differences that we already mentioned in the thread. On average a male will develop in a way that gives him massive advantages against females. So in order to allow females to compete at an elite level they have their own category. Everyone is welcomed in the male categories as far as I know, at the exception of certain combat sports.
From what I read, when kids transition very young, when they are young teenagers the differences are none or close to none.
I don't know why you keep bringing up elite sports, I'm talking about kids playing sports in high school, not the olympics.
The Corinthian
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Having an open category resolves everything you've posted here.Very rudimentary maths, I'll give you that.
Numbers say there are about 300.000 transgender kids in the US, lets assume 150.000 transgender girls. There are 42.000 high schools in the US, so lets round it to 4 transgender girls per high school. Even if they all wanted to play the same sport, which is obviously irrealistic, it wouldn't be enough to start a team. So, in practice, they would be excluded from sports.
Let's say it' s a solo sport, like running. What are the odds that more than one girl would want to practice it per school? Very low, so is the school going to allocate resources, like a coach and travels to competitions for just one kid? In an ideal world, sure, in practice, this hypothetical girl would be excluded from sports.
If we're saying there are 150,000 transgender girls (also weird that transwoman written like that is considered dogwhistling, but transgender is ok @stepic ) then we can assume there are at most 150,000 transgender boys and another %age of non-binary, with these numbers only rising if current trends hold. An open category means anyone that doesn't feel comfortable competing with biological males are free to compete in this category. What / how the US allocates time and resource to this is a separate conversation, but I don't think things are as disaggregated as you say.
I'm sorry, what? I want to put boys in girls' locker rooms? What gave you that idea?
The fact that you specifically mentioned it as an issue in one way but not the other? But maybe I assumed incorrectly in which case your point is moot.
From what I read, when kids transition very young, when they are young teenagers the differences are none or close to none.
I don't know why you keep bringing up elite sports, I'm talking about kids playing sports in high school, not the olympics.
Because the point of this thread and this issue is elite sport.
And why should kid transition very young? That's an issue in itself. Also no teenage is too late from what I understand, you have already developped your skeleton and organs as a male or female.
I'm sure some adults would accept an open category in professional sports, I would leave that decision to them.Having an open category resolves everything you've posted here.
If we're saying there are 150,000 transgender girls (also weird that transwoman written like that is considered dogwhistling, but transgender is ok @stepic ) then we can assume there are at most 150,000 transgender boys and another %age of non-binary, with these numbers only rising if current trends hold. An open category means anyone that doesn't feel comfortable competing with biological males are free to compete in this category. What / how the US allocates time and resource to this is a separate conversation, but I don't think things are as disaggregated as you say.
But when it comes to school sports, two major problems with an open category.
As I've stated multiple times, school sports are about health, inclusion, friendship and well being in general. Having an open category would be a clear message to young kids, still developing their identity, that they are different and their school doesn't accept them for who they are. Studies are clear on the impact of this exclusion on kids' mental health. This is a price I don't think we as a community should be willing to pay.
Second, you're putting a very diverse group of people in the same bag. You would have transgender girls who refuse to play in boys teams even if they are legally allowed because they don't want to share locker rooms with boys, because they want to develop those relations of team spirit and companionship with other girls, etc. Now you're putting them in a locker room with transgender boys who are, in all practical terms of their identity development, boys. This would be cruel and a completely disregard for who these kids are.
Either you're not being clear or my comprehension skills are not that good.The fact that you specifically mentioned it as an issue in one way but not the other? But maybe I assumed incorrectly in which case your point is moot.
Transgender girls don't want to share a locker room with boys and transgender boys don't want to share a locker room with girls. So even if the law says they can, they won't want to do it, and rightfully so. So, you can hide behind the law all you want, but in practice, you're banning them.
I've been talking non stop about school sports.Because the point of this thread and this issue is elite sport.
And why should kid transition very young? That's an issue in itself.
Either you're not being clear or my comprehension skills are not that good.
Transgender girls don't want to share a locker room with boys and transgender boys don't want to share a locker room with girls. So even if the law says they can, they won't want to do it, and rightfully so. So, you can hide behind the law all you want, but in practice, you're banning them.
I've been talking non stop about school sports.
Do girls want to share a locker room with transgender girls and boys want to share a locker room with transgender boys? That's the reciprocal I alluded to.
And we are talking about elite sport which includes schools sports. We are talking about high level competitive sport at local, state, national and global level. I could be wrong but you seem to think that the issue concerns leisure sports, in which case we agree categories aren't important.
No, state the difference. We both know what it is and you know that it's the core issue and why you are playing this game.
i'm not playing any game, you clearly are though.
Trans is an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as the sex they were assigned at birth.
Cisgender, or simply cis, is an adjective that describes a person whose gender identity aligns with the sex they were assigned at birth - i.e. not trans.
so go on, let's hear it.
transgender girls (also weird that transwoman written like that is considered dogwhistling, but transgender is ok @stepic )
not weird at all. trans is short for transgender.
i'm not playing any game, you clearly are though.
Trans is an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as the sex they were assigned at birth.
Cisgender, or simply cis, is an adjective that describes a person whose gender identity aligns with the sex they were assigned at birth - i.e. not trans.
so go on, let's hear it.
So there is a distinction and that distinction makes a difference between both which is why there are categories in sport.
I don't have the data to answer your first question. It's anecdotal, I know, but when the law changed in Portugal the vast majority of high school students were ok with sharing bathrooms and locker rooms with transgender kids.Do girls want to share a locker room with transgender girls and boys want to share a locker room with transgender boys? That's the reciprocal I alluded to.
And we are talking about elite sport which includes schools sports. We are talking about high level competitive sport at local, state, national and global level. I could be wrong but you seem to think that the issue concerns leisure sports, in which case we agree categories aren't important.
Speaking for myself, if I'm in a locker room, it would be much much more uncomfortable having a transgender woman walk in than a transgender man. I assume it would be the same for students. After all, they know these kids from school context and they're very likely to know that's who they are, they not faking their whole identity just to perv on locker rooms.
I already disagreed plenty of times that schools sports should have different objectives from pro sports. Well being, health, inclusion and friendship are more important than just win.
So there is a distinction and that distinction makes a difference between both which is why there are categories in sport.
christ all that effort just for your point to be that trans people are not cis. well done.
christ all that effort just for your point to be that trans people are not cis. well done.
I stated that they were different from the start, you are the one who tried to pretend that there were no distinctions. So well done to you for accepting it.
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Very rudimentary maths, I'll give you that.
Numbers say there are about 300.000 transgender kids in the US, lets assume 150.000 transgender girls. There are 42.000 high schools in the US, so lets round it to 4 transgender girls per high school. Even if they all wanted to play the same sport, which is obviously irrealistic, it wouldn't be enough to start a team. So, in practice, they would be excluded from sports.
Let's say it' s a solo sport, like running. What are the odds that more than one girl would want to practice it per school? Very low, so is the school going to allocate resources, like a coach and travels to competitions for just one kid? In an ideal world, sure, in practice, this hypothetical girl would be excluded from sports.
Maybe the best compromise would be to allow trans women to compete in women's sports up to a certain point. Once it gets to the level of National or State championships then that would be limited to women athletes who did not go through male puberty. I recognize that won't please everyone but I think it might be the best way to accommodate the "average" trans woman's ability to compete in sports for health, camaraderie, etc while also ensuring that advantages gained from male puberty do not skew the most competitive levels of competition.
I realize some from both sides might not like that compromise but, to me at least, it seems like it would be fair to the greatest number of people.
I stated that they were different from the start, you are the one who tried to pretend that there were no distinctions. So well done to you for accepting it.
please show me where i have stated that there is literally no difference between a cis and trans person.
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