Transgender Athletes

arnie_ni said:
Oh participation medals :lol:
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Still no. The NCAA finals aren't just 8 people swimming, they just place the top 8 to give those people the title "All-American". The NCAA wrestling tournament going on right now does the same thing for a tournament bracket of 33.

The top 8 that placed in the Women's 500y Freestyle were out of a field of...
Heat 1 of 8
Degeorge, Leah SO Florida 4:46.96
Auld, Anna FR Florida 4:45.49
Palsha, Peyton 5Y Georgia 4:46.71
Drumm, Megan SO Kentucky 4:46.97

Heat 2 of 8
Thomas, Martina SR U.S. Navy 4:45.31
Travis, Brooke JR NC State 4:45.06
Ray, Amanda SO Florida 4:44.96
Shanley, Kathryn FR Michigan 4:44.47
Knisely, Brooke SO UNC Wilmington 4:44.66
Thomas, Luciana SR Notre Dame 4:44.96
Smith, Summer FR Tennessee 4:45.12
Braun, Elle SO Wisconsin 4:45.49

Heat 3 of 8
Kalandadze, Anna JR Penn 4:44.06
Delmenico, Mela FR Alabama 4:43.86
Roghair, Aurora FR Stanford 4:43.62
Klinker, Rachel JR California 4:43.53
DiMeco, Sarah JR California 4:43.56
Hierath, Yara SO NC State 4:43.69
Haebig, Autumn 5Y Nebraska 4:44.00
Maceachern, Paige FR UCLA 4:44.10

Heat 4 of 8
Carlson, Abby FR Wisconsin 4:43.08
Pennington, Caroline FR USC 4:43.05
Travis, Chase SO VT 4:42.73
Gyorgy, Reka 5Y VT 4:42.70
Gati, Izzy SR Kentucky 4:42.71
Ristic, Ella SO Indiana 4:42.73
Stege, Rachel FR Georgia 4:43.07
Nordmann, Lillie FR Stanford 4:43.22

Heat 5 of 8
Fabian, Fanni FR California 4:42.46
Breslin, Aly SO Tennessee 4:42.02
Donohoe, Madelyn JR Virginia 4:41.54
Denigan, Mariah FR Indiana 4:41.21
Motekaitis, Mia JR California 4:41.31
Buroker, Catherine JR Penn 4:41.84
Ecker, Emily SO Wisconsin 4:42.45
Maier, Nicole SO Miami (Ohio) 4:42.60

Heat 6 of 8
Bauer, Elise SO Florida 4:40.82
Mathieu, Tylor JR Florida 4:39.51
Williams, Liberty SO Louisville 4:38.79
Mrozinski, Julia FR Tennessee 4:35.95
McKenna, Paige FR Wisconsin 4:38.09
Tankersley, Morgan SR Stanford 4:39.09
Ackerman, Kathryn SO Michigan 4:40.00
Coetzee, Dune FR Georgia 4:41.03

Heat 7 of 8
Tafuto, Sally SR Ohio St 4:40.49
Sullivan, Erica FR Texas 4:39.46
Stege, Kristen JR Tennessee 4:38.50
Nordin, Emma 5Y ASU 4:34.87
Weyant, Emma FR Virginia 4:37.23
Mull, Lola SO Northwestern 4:39.03
Pfeifer, Evie 5Y Texas 4:39.92
Hetzer, Emily SR Auburn 4:41.02

Heat 8 of 8
Gan, Ching Hwee FR Indiana 4:40.39
McCulloh, Abigail FR Georgia 4:39.17
McMahon, Kensey SR Alabama 4:38.34
Thomas, Lia 5Y Penn 4:34.06
Forde, Brooke 5Y Stanford 4:36.96
Laning, Erica 5Y ASU 4:38.80
Geringer, Maya SO Ohio St 4:39.55
Spitz, Ayla JR California 4:40.89
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It's a joke. Where do you draw the line?

How long before a man wins the womens wimbledon? How long before a man is the best womens footballer in the world. We've already seen the stark difference between womens top level football and mens.
 
Chief123 said:
It's a joke. Where do you draw the line?

How long before a man wins the womens wimbledon? How long before a man is the best womens footballer in the world. We've already seen the stark difference between womens top level football and mens.
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She's not a man though, right?
 
ChaddyP said:
are there Any transmales competing in men's competitions by the Way?
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A quick google tells me Chris Mosier is probably the most high profile or successful. He made the USA Duathalon team for the 2016 World Championship and was the first transgender athlete in the ESPN body issue, first transgender athlete to be sponsored by Nike, etc.
 
sullydnl said:
A quick google tells me Chris Mosier is probably the most high profile or successful. He made the USA Duathalon team for the 2016 World Championship and was the first transgender athlete in the ESPN body issue, first transgender athlete to be sponsored by Nike, etc.
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ta

Always hear about transwomen fecking everything up and never actually hear about transmen in sport
 
From the articles posted it seems that prior to transitioning she was a top athlete by the standards of the men's competition. With that in mind, is it suspicious or even surprising that she's a top athlete in the women's competition?

Looking at the World Records, the women's record for the 400m is 6% slower than the men's. Thomas' winning time in the women's 500 yards is about 6% slower than her best time in the men's prior to transition. I know that's not massively scientific, but isn't that what we'd expect to see? If she'd been an 'also-swam' in the men's competition prior to transitioning and had gone on to breeze the woman's competition after transitioning, the reaction in here might be justified. But based on what's been posted in here, it seems as if she was one of the best prior to transitioning and is still one of the best now, winning a race by a pretty narrow margin whilst getting nowhere near the World Record or her pre-transition form.

Clearly we're in new territory and there's a need to keep an eye on these things to make sure the playing field remains even, but the rules have to be based on something more than a bunch of people kneejerking because a trans woman won something.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
From the articles posted it seems that prior to transitioning she was a top athlete by the standards of the men's competition. With that in mind, is it suspicious or even surprising that she's a top athlete in the women's competition?

Looking at the World Records, the women's record for the 400m is 6% slower than the men's. Thomas' winning time in the women's 500 yards is about 6% slower than her best time in the men's prior to transition. Not massively scientific, but isn't that what we'd expect to see?If she'd been an 'also-swam' in the men's competition prior to transitioning and had gone on to breeze the woman's competition after transitioning, the reaction in here might be justified. But based on what's been posted in here, it seems as if she was one of the best prior to transitioning and is still one of the best now.

Clearly we're in new territory and there's a need to keep an eye on these things to make sure the playing field remains even, but the rules have to be based on something more than a bunch of people kneejerking because a trans woman won something.
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I don’t think the issue is average male athletes transitioning and dominating female sport. It’s about any male athletes transitioning and dominating female sport.

There’s also going to be a lot of variation within sports. Where being born male will be much more advantageous in some sports than others. Swimming is a sport where I’d imagine the difference between top male athlete and top female athletes is narrower than most (just a guess, mind you, I’m sure people more familiar with the sport will know for certain)
 
jeff_goldblum said:
From the articles posted it seems that prior to transitioning she was a top athlete by the standards of the men's competition. With that in mind, is it suspicious or even surprising that she's a top athlete in the women's competition?

Looking at the World Records, the women's record for the 400m is 6% slower than the men's. Thomas' winning time in the women's 500 yards is about 6% slower than her best time in the men's prior to transition. I know that's not massively scientific, but isn't that what we'd expect to see? If she'd been an 'also-swam' in the men's competition prior to transitioning and had gone on to breeze the woman's competition after transitioning, the reaction in here might be justified. But based on what's been posted in here, it seems as if she was one of the best prior to transitioning and is still one of the best now, winning a race by a pretty narrow margin whilst getting nowhere near the World Record or her pre-transition form.

Clearly we're in new territory and there's a need to keep an eye on these things to make sure the playing field remains even, but the rules have to be based on something more than a bunch of people kneejerking because a trans woman won something.
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#554 to #1...

"A Look At the Numbers and Times: No Denying the Advantages of Lia Thomas

Just how much of an advantage does Lia Thomas possesses over biological females? The numbers paint a clear picture. The fact that the University of Pennsylvania swimmer has soared from a mid-500s ranking (554th in the 200 freestyle) in men’s competition to the top-ranked swimmer in women’s competition tells the story of the unfairness which is unfolding at the NCAA level."

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.c...imes-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/
 
ChaddyP said:
I thought I remembered you mentioning that wrestling after puberty is basically one sided affair when a body that grew up as a female goes against a body that was male all it's life.
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Beggs was forced to wrestle in the Texas girl's division throughout high school. Went 92-0 as a junior and senior. Wasn't even close.

I don't think Beggs has won a match in college against men.
 
Carolina Red said:
Still no. The NCAA finals aren't just 8 people swimming, they just place the top 8 to give those people the title "All-American". The NCAA wrestling tournament going on right now does the same thing for a tournament bracket of 33.

The top 8 that placed in the Women's 500y Freestyle were out of a field of...
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The participation medals was a joke. The other wasn't. I genuinely thought they awarded the born women their own set of medals, seeing 4 participants pictured on the podium, which I thought was their way around the issue at hand.
 
arnie_ni said:
The participation medals was a joke. The other wasn't. I genuinely thought they awarded the born women their own set of medals, seeing 4 participants pictured on the podium, which I thought was their way around the issue at hand.
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Gotcha. No worries.

But no, they did not award any extra placements / medals.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I don’t think the issue is average male athletes transitioning and dominating female sport. It’s about any male athletes transitioning and dominating female sport.

There’s also going to be a lot of variation within sports. Where being born male will be much more advantageous in some sports than others. Swimming is a sport where I’d imagine the difference between top male athlete and top female athletes is narrower than most (just a guess, mind you, I’m sure people more familiar with the sport will know for certain)
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Absolutely agree on the bolded, it's a point I've made in here before. The only sensible and fair thing to do is to follow the science and judge sport by sport, reviewing as more evidence becomes available. My suspicion is that it's going to be a much more mixed picture than anyone expects. I think we'll see some sports where having a bone structure built during male puberty is a massive advantage regardless of hormones, and others where having to carry that bone structure around in the absence of testosterone-built muscles is going to be a competitive disadvantage (or possibly an injury risk). It's inevitably going to be a difficult discussion because it's by no means rare for top athletes to benefit from 'unfair' quirks of biology. It feels like we happily ignore that in sport until it comes to trans/intersex people, at which point we slam the door in their faces. For example, Michael Phelps has a genetic trait which means his muscles produce half the lactic acid the average athlete's do (on top of the advantages he has over others because of his unusual build, arm-length, hand-size etc.). Alongside his hard work, those innate natural advantages over the competition have made him one of the of the most successful and celebrated sportsmen of all time. On the other hand, Caster Semanya is banned from competition because her natural advantage over her competition involves hormones.

On your first paragraph: if that's the case, people should just come out and say that instead of hiding behind these as-yet-unsubstantiated scientific arguments about it not being fair. If the science was to say that in a certain sport, trans women after X years of hormone therapy have no competitive advantage over cis women and people still want to exclude them, it's clear that equality and fairness isn't what they're really interested in. The same goes for those who will inevitably want to block athletes who transitioned in their teens, having been on hormone blockers and not undergone male puberty, from women's sport.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
Absolutely agree on the bolded, it's a point I've made in here before. The only sensible and fair thing to do is to follow the science and judge sport by sport, reviewing as more evidence becomes available. My suspicion is that it's going to be a much more mixed picture than anyone expects. I think we'll see some sports where having a bone structure built during male puberty is a massive advantage regardless of hormones, and others where having to carry that bone structure around in the absence of testosterone-built muscles is going to be a competitive disadvantage (or possibly an injury risk). It's inevitably going to be a difficult discussion because it's by no means rare for top athletes to benefit from 'unfair' quirks of biology. It feels like we happily ignore that in sport until it comes to trans/intersex people, at which point we slam the door in their faces. For example, Michael Phelps has a genetic trait which means his muscles produce half the lactic acid the average athlete's do (on top of the advantages he has over others because of his unusual build, arm-length, hand-size etc.). Alongside his hard work, those innate natural advantages over the competition have made him one of the of the most successful and celebrated sportsmen of all time. On the other hand, Caster Semanya is banned from competition because her natural advantage over her competition involves hormones.

On your first paragraph: if that's the case, people should just come out and say that instead of hiding behind these as-yet-unsubstantiated scientific arguments about it not being fair. If the science was to say that in a certain sport, trans women after X years of hormone therapy have no competitive advantage over cis women and people still want to exclude them, it's clear that equality and fairness isn't what they're really interested in. The same goes for those who will inevitably want to block athletes who transitioned in their teens, having been on hormone blockers and not undergone male puberty, from women's sport.
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It's not a matter of ignoring quirks of biology. An arbitrary line has to be drawn somewhere in sports and the easy one is male-female. But I don't see people complaining that some males have more talent or better genetics than other males.
 
Deery said:
Looks like 2 thirds and a second, I don’t think the whole thing is fair, but that’s a pretty cold photo..
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It looks like they're doing their own podium. Can't blame it but this isn't a good thing for either side so hope there's a way to reverse this nonsense.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
Looking at the World Records, the women's record for the 400m is 6% slower than the men's. Thomas' winning time in the women's 500 yards is about 6% slower than her best time in the men's prior to transition. I know that's not massively scientific, but isn't that what we'd expect to see? If she'd been an 'also-swam' in the men's competition prior to transitioning and had gone on to breeze the woman's competition after transitioning, the reaction in here might be justified. But based on what's been posted in here, it seems as if she was one of the best prior to transitioning and is still one of the best now, winning a race by a pretty narrow margin whilst getting nowhere near the World Record or her pre-transition form.
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Transitioning doesn't reverse the athletic advantages a male has over a female, specially in something like swimming so it still doesn't make it fair even if her performance diminshed after the transitioning.

I really don't know her times before transitioning but you do need to have a lot of training and preparation since an early age to reach that level no matter the gender. All those women are able to beat the vast majority of men who don't have the same amount of trainning or competitive background but then that doesn't mean it makes things fair if someone was amongst the best as a male, transitions and now is the very best among women. I really don't follow that logic.

As a male you have a different body composition (more muscle mass, less fat), you also have larger lungs, and overall are taller than women with larger limbs among many other things. Training with those advantages going through puberty also represents an advantage and transitioning doesn't really revert a lot of those advantages that you will retain; the treatment doesn't literally turn a man into a woman.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Swimming is a sport where I’d imagine the difference between top male athlete and top female athletes is narrower than most (just a guess, mind you, I’m sure people more familiar with the sport will know for certain)
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I read something about the difference not being so big as in some other sports, the same happened with athletics but if you have swam or ran competitively it's still a pretty tangible difference. Then in some ultra long distances there's not much difference, at least judging for the best times.

Being taller and stronger helps a lot in swimming but it's also a very technical sport but the shorter the distance it becomes more about explosiveness and strenght. Women also have more fat in relation to their body mass and that helps them to float better which also helps in swimming, so sometimes at an ameteur level or in cases of people with no experience a woman could do better at the beginning.
 
I’d like to also point out that the women who came in 2nd and 3rd arent your run of the mill college swimmers…

Emma Weyant won the silver medal in the women’s 400m individual medley at the 2020 Summer Olympics. She is also a three-time U.S. National Champion, a two-time Junior Pan Pacific medalist and a four-time Florida High School 4A State Champion in the 500 free and 200 individual medley.

Erica Sullivan won the silver medal in the women’s 1500m freestyle at the 2020 Summer Olympics and 2nd at the the US Olympic trials. She’s also placed 5th at the Pan Pacific Championships in 2018 in the 800m freestyle and 9th in the 1500m freestyle.
 
I don't think anyone is going to change their gender so that they can win a gold medal in a sporting event, that would be an insane reason to change gender. However, the physical advantages a transgender woman has is obvious and unfair, and sport is supposed to be fair.
 
hobbers said:
There's not as big a difference between men and women in endurance swimming. But I don't think 400m counts as endurance swimming.
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You're totally right. 50 and 100 meters are considered sprints, like the equivalent of running a 100 meter dash. 400 meters it's maybe something in between, perhaps the equivalent of running 800 meters so you still have to be very fast.

For endurance I'm talking of ultra distances, which is something above 10km and open water.
 
Amar__ said:
What a great way to ruin many women sports and competitions.
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Agree. People are trying so hard to be politically correct and try not to offend people, that these things are getting totally out of hand.
My opinion on these gender things these days aside, i will never offend or harass anyone, people can be whatever they want for me, it's not my business, but as you say, these people are ruining so many girls' dreams in sport.
They don't belong there, it's an unfair advantage.

If it makes your life better, go ahead, change your gender, i don't mind, but don't do it to win in sports. I think we will see more and more of this in the coming years, and it will get to a point where something has to be done.
Not saying those who do shouldn't do sports, of course, but they shouldn't compete at the top level with the females.

My main problem with the whole trans thing, isn't that people are trans, born in wrong body and so on, it's that the rest of the world has to adapt to and change their ways because of such a low % of people.
 
Grylte said:
If it makes your life better, go ahead, change your gender, i don't mind, but don't do it to win in sports. I think we will see more and more of this in the coming years, and it will get to a point where something has to be done.
Not saying those who do shouldn't do sports, of course, but they shouldn't compete at the top level with the females.
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I don't think anyone has changed gender to win at sports.

It's worth noting that if someone realises they're trans early, are given proper care and support and they're allowed to transition, should they wish to do so, then they wouldn't have an advantage or disadvantage, compared to those who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. The changes that set men and women apart in terms of physical capability happen during puberty, and we have the means to alter how a body develops.
 
Halftrack said:
I don't think anyone has changed gender to win at sports.

It's worth noting that if someone realises they're trans early, are given proper care and support and they're allowed to transition, should they wish to do so, then they wouldn't have an advantage or disadvantage, compared to those who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. The changes that set men and women apart in terms of physical capability happen during puberty, and we have the means to alter how a body develops.
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See, while I understand with what you're saying in relation to sports, there's no way i can get behind letting a child transition before puberty. They're far too young to make that decision, in medical terms imo. I mean you're talking what 10 or 11 years old
 
Halftrack said:
It's worth noting that if someone realises they're trans early, are given proper care and support and they're allowed to transition, should they wish to do so, then they wouldn't have an advantage or disadvantage, compared to those who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. The changes that set men and women apart in terms of physical capability happen during puberty, and we have the means to alter how a body develops.
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Kids transitioning before puberty is a whole different subject. It’s a very tricky topic but I think one that would see far more backlash that anything happening in sport right now
 
arnie_ni said:
See, while I understand with what you're saying in relation to sports, there's no way i can get behind letting a child transition before puberty. They're far too young to make that decision, in medical terms imo. I mean you're talking what 10 or 11 years old
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There are physicians and mental health professionals involved. Puberty blockers are used to allow for more time to consider whether this is something they want to do, and to prevent any unwanted changes from taking place. It's completely safe and doesn't hinder development, and statistics tell us that it's a good and viable solution. These are not steps that are taken lightly, and it isn't done at the whims of a child.
Reditus said:
Kids transitioning before puberty is a whole different subject. It’s a very tricky topic but I think one that would see far more backlash that anything happening in sport right now
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It's undoubtedly a tricky and controversial topic, not least because of a continued effort to paint affirmative care with regards to children diagnosed with gender dysphoria as child abuse.
 
One of the difficulties in forming firm opinions on this issue is that both sides present their own "scientific evidence", which I am immediately inclined to mistrust simply due to constant toxicity around the debate.

Evidence on one side framed as proof that concerns are completed unfounded and fueled by transphobia, even though there are clearly legitimate and intuitive reasons to question whether some athletes are unfairly (and potentially dangerously) at a disadvantage compared to their competitors. And evidence on the other side cloaked in the implication (or outright assertion) that trans athletes are deviously and deliberately transitioning just so they can win sporting events, or bully women, often accompanied with a completely unneccesary misgendering of the athlete involved.

All of this really infomed by the fact that most of this debate seems to take place on social media, where the worst people in the world go to share their opinion.
 
Halftrack said:
There are physicians and mental health professionals involved. Puberty blockers are used to allow for more time to consider whether this is something they want to do, and to prevent any unwanted changes from taking place. It's completely safe and doesn't hinder development, and statistics tell us that it's a good and viable solution. These are not steps that are taken lightly, and it isn't done at the whims of a child.

It's undoubtedly a tricky and controversial topic, not least because of a continued effort to paint affirmative care with regards to children diagnosed with gender dysphoria as child abuse.
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I don't think anybody is doubting the medical ops themselves but rather the decision-making of a child. What do you mean "isn't done at the whims of a child"?
 
Halftrack said:
There are physicians and mental health professionals involved. Puberty blockers are used to allow for more time to consider whether this is something they want to do, and to prevent any unwanted changes from taking place. It's completely safe and doesn't hinder development, and statistics tell us that it's a good and viable solution. These are not steps that are taken lightly, and it isn't done at the whims of a child.

It's undoubtedly a tricky and controversial topic, not least because of a continued effort to paint affirmative care with regards to children diagnosed with gender dysphoria as child abuse.
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I'm sure it is a good a viable solution but at the end of the day it's a child and I'm not sure a 10 or 11 year old should be making massive medical decisions about what sex they want to be.

And I appreciate that could make their teen years suck, putting it lightly, but me personally, I'm not comfortable with someone so young making such a lift altering decision.
 
VorZakone said:
What do you mean "isn't done at the whims of a child"?
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It's not done because a boy says "I'm a girl", there's a years long process involving physicians and mental health professionals before it ever gets to the point where one would consider medical transition. Many children do desist and go on to identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. The goal isn't to make children trans, it's to identify those who are early and allow them the treatment that will allow the to be comfortable with themselves and lead happy lives, hopefully preventing years of suffering and anguish. If gender dysphoria persist into puberty (or into the years where one would enter puberty if on blockers) it's very likely to be permanent.

And to add, most places don't allow actual surgeries before they reach age of majority.
arnie_ni said:
I'm sure it is a good a viable solution but at the end of the day it's a child and I'm not sure a 10 or 11 year old should be making massive medical decisions about what sex they want to be.

And I appreciate that could make their teen years suck, putting it lightly, but me personally, I'm not comfortable with someone so young making such a lift altering decision.
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Not only their teen years, potentially significant parts of the rest of their lives.

I won't claim to know all the answers, I'm merely pointing to an available solution. I trust the professionals to know how best to go about it.
 
I wish folks who do support trans atheletes participating in their identified gender would just start advocating for removing women tiers from most sports and make it gender neutral. I say so because this is where this is all heading. One hasn't even begun to look at the conundrum non binary people would pose. Theoretically they despite having being born as a male may want to compete in women's sports if atheletically they identified as a female. If one doesn't want to disadvantage non binary folks then you can't ask them to adhere to regulations around hormonal therapy either.
 
VorZakone said:
I don't think anybody is doubting the medical ops themselves but rather the decision-making of a child. What do you mean "isn't done at the whims of a child"?
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Not sure what you mean by medical ops, but no children are getting operated on. We are talking about puberty blockers here. They delay puberty, that's it.

And by not done on the whims of a child, I assume they mean that it's not like a child can just decide that they're trans and go to get pills. We're talking about both professional therapy and social transitioning over a prolonged period of time.
 
2 categories in sports: predominantly biological male and predominantly biological female, based on a transparent categorization that's based on the newest science
alternative is an additional gender neutral class imo
 
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