Transgender Athletes

Shamwow said:
But that means that you would have to allow *fully transitioned trans men to compete in women's sport. Assuming they'd even want to which I doubt in general.

EDIT just to make the post more clear
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It'd break doping rules, which you well know.

There is no perfect answer to this, which people have pointed out on multiple times through the thread.

Trans women have become more central to the debate here as Hubbard was the first trans competitor announced for this olympics, but as you've now highlighted, there are addtional (I'd argue separate) considerations where trans men are concerned.

The foundation of all sports is fairness. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be (for now at least) a way to universally include trans people in the existing sex-based categories, and there is an apparent shortage of competitors to allow for trans categories.

Given the discomfort, some may even say trauma, that trans people feel in the time before their transition, I'd say ruling yourself out of elite level sports so you can live your life as the person you are is a small price to pay.
 
Alex99 said:
It'd break doping rules, which you well know.

There is no perfect answer to this, which people have pointed out on multiple times through the thread.

Trans women have become more central to the debate here as Hubbard was the first trans competitor announced for this olympics, but as you've now highlighted, there are addtional (I'd argue separate) considerations where trans men are concerned.

The foundation of all sports is fairness. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be (for now at least) a way to universally include trans people in the existing sex-based categories, and there is an apparent shortage of competitors to allow for trans categories.

Given the discomfort, some may even say trauma, that trans people feel in the time before their transition, I'd say ruling yourself out of elite level sports so you can live your life as the person you are is a small price to pay.
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It's not really up to you to say. Surely coming second to a trans women is a small price to pay for equality and inclusiveness? What are our priorities in having sport in the first place?
 
Shamwow said:
It's not really up to you to say. Surely coming second to a trans women is a small price to pay for equality and inclusiveness? What are our priorities in having sport in the first place?
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Are biological female athletes willing to pay it?
 
Shamwow said:
It's not really up to you to say. Surely coming second to a trans women is a small price to pay for equality and inclusiveness? What are our priorities in having sport in the first place?
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Sport, especially elite level sport, is not built on equality and inclusivity, it is built on fairness.

Our priorities in sports are to allow people to compete on a level playing field. What you're arguing for is not that.

For someone that came in here sarcastically giving it "I forgot trans men don't exist", you're awfully dismissive of cis women, and there's a very noteable lack of acknowledgement that it will be them, and not cis men (or any biological male) that are the ones missing out through this supposed inclusivity.
 
VorZakone said:
Are biological female athletes willing to pay it?
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Well asking someone to come potentially come second in a sport to someone who has a biological advantage (which of course never happens in sport otherwise) seems less of a price to pay than telling someone they can't compete.
 
Shamwow said:
It's not really up to you to say. Surely coming second to a trans women is a small price to pay for equality and inclusiveness? What are our priorities in having sport in the first place?
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Female sports were literally created to be exclude a whole half of the human population. For fairness.
 
Alex99 said:
Sport, especially elite level sport, is not built on equality and inclusivity, it is built on fairness.

Our priorities in sports are to allow people to compete on a level playing field. What you're arguing for is not that.

For someone that came in here sarcastically giving it "I forgot trans men don't exist", you're awfully dismissive of cis women, and there's a very noteable lack of acknowledgement that it will be them, and not cis men (or any biological male) that are the ones missing out through this supposed inclusivity.
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How would a trans woman aka a biological male in your terms not be missing out even more in the opposite case?
 
Shamwow said:
It's not really up to you to say. Surely coming second to a trans women is a small price to pay for equality and inclusiveness? What are our priorities in having sport in the first place?
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Have you ever trained to compete at anything? It doesn't seem like a small price to pay if someone has dedicated their lives to excel at something only to be beaten by someone who biologically shouldn't be competing against them. Maybe you should go tell this to them and their families. Families who dedicate their lives ensuring that their children make training on time. Use their life savings to ensure their children get the best coaching. Drive them to numerous events for qualifications etc. Maybe you should tell those parents and their children it's a small price to pay because someone behind a keyboard thinks it is.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
Have you ever trained to compete at anything? It doesn't seem like a small price to pay if someone has dedicated their lives to excel at something only to be beaten by someone who biologically shouldn't be competing against them. Maybe you should go tell this to them and their families. Families who dedicate their lives ensuring that their children make training on time. Use their life savings to ensure their children get the best coaching. Drive them to numerous events for qualifications etc. Maybe you should tell those parents and their children it's a small price to pay because someone behind a keyword thinks it is.
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Again, I could turn that around on you and ask is the opposite situation not even more harsh. Those kids sound pretty lucky in the first place to be honest. Coming second might do them some good.
 
Shamwow said:
Well asking someone to come potentially come second in a sport to someone who has a biological advantage (which of course never happens in sport otherwise) seems less of a price to pay than telling someone they can't compete.
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There's a biological advantage of maybe being a bit taller than your peers in basketball, and then there's a biological advantage that you've literally only got because you belong in a different biological category altogether, and it's frankly ridiculous and incredibly disingenuous for you to argue as if they're remotely comparable.

And as you've seemingly forgotten about trans men, despite your indignation earlier, it's also not fair for some competitors in a category to be allowed hormone therapy that provides massive performance benefits, while others are not.

Shamwow said:
How would a trans woman aka a biological male in your terms not be missing out even more in the opposite case?
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It's almost like there isn't a scenario in which someone doesn't miss out.

Why are you so insistent that is cis women that have to miss out, despite the category they compete in literally existing because they are unable to compete with biological males?

Sport is based on fairness (a tenet you repeatedly ignore) and elite level sports is a career. You are quite literally asking for women to accept damage to their careers so that people who have made a personal choice to transition can feel included.
 
Alex99 said:
There's a biological advantage of maybe being a bit taller than your peers in basketball, and then there's a biological advantage that you've literally only got because you belong in a different biological category altogether, and it's frankly ridiculous and incredibly disingenuous for you to argue as if they're remotely comparable.

And as you've seemingly forgotten about trans men, despite your indignation earlier, it's also not fair for some competitors in a category to be allowed hormone therapy that provides massive performance benefits, while others are not.



It's almost like there isn't a scenario in which someone doesn't miss out.

Why are you so insistent that is cis women that have to miss out, despite the category they compete in literally existing because they are unable to compete with biological males?

Sport is based on fairness (a tenet you repeatedly ignore) and elite level sports is a career. You are quite literally asking for women to accept damage to their careers so that people who have made a personal choice to transition can feel included.
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Because they are missing out on something immaterial and inconsequential. Not being allowed to participate at all is way fecking worse to your career. Get it?
 
Shamwow said:
It's not really up to you to say. Surely coming second to a trans women is a small price to pay for equality and inclusiveness? What are our priorities in having sport in the first place?
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I reckon that’s exactly what will be on the silver medalists mind as the awards are doled out.
 
Shamwow said:
Again, I could turn that around on you and ask is the opposite situation not even more harsh. Those kids sound pretty lucky in the first place to be honest. Coming second might do them some good.
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I suppose you are going to surprise me and tell me that you gave up virtually all of your free time as a child, teenager and young adult to train for a competitive sport.
 
oates said:
I suppose you are going to surprise me and tell me that you gave up virtually all of your free time as a child, teenager and young adult to train for a competitive sport.
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I was too busy having a stroke so sorry I can't empathise with elite athletes who have to make do with potentially coming second unfairly.
 
Shamwow said:
Because they are missing out on something immaterial and inconsequential. Not being allowed to participate at all is way fecking worse to your career. Get it?
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It's not immaterial and inconsequential though, is it? Laurel Hubbard, someone who had a long career as a competitive weightlifter as a male, but was not good enough to compete at an elite level, has quite literally taken a spot at the Olympics that would have otherwise gone to 21 year old at the beginning of her professional career. Who knows what the knock-on effects of that will be given the lack of global exposure.

Sports categories are sex-based for fairness, you should not be able to opt into the other category because you have a better chance of a career in it. It is morally bankrupt to do so.
 
Shamwow said:
I was too busy having a stroke so sorry I can't empathise with elite athletes who have to make do with potentially coming second unfairly.
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So you have no idea what you are talking about when you suggest that you know what might make some young athletes learn something. Pardon my lack of empathy in my first sentence, but it's a shame you didn't get the opportunity to find out.
 
Alex99 said:
It's not immaterial and inconsequential though, is it? Laurel Hubbard, someone who had a long career as a competitive weightlifter as a male, but was not good enough to compete at an elite level, has quite literally taken a spot at the Olympics that would have otherwise gone to 21 year old at the beginning of her professional career. Who knows what the knock-on effects of that will be given the lack of global exposure.

Sports categories are sex-based for fairness, you should not be able to opt into the other category because you have a better chance of a career in it. It is morally bankrupt to do so.
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I think excluding people is pretty morally bankrupt to be honest.
 
Shamwow said:
Again, I could turn that around on you and ask is the opposite situation not even more harsh. Those kids sound pretty lucky in the first place to be honest. Coming second might do them some good.
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Lucky ? You can't possibly be serious. There's no luck in competitive sports. It's hard work and dedication.
 
oates said:
So you have no idea what you are talking about when you suggest that you know what might make some young athletes learn something. Pardon my lack of empathy in my first sentence, but it's a shame you didn't get the opportunity to find out.
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I said that because the situation described was of someone getting strongly supported by a family who is financially able to do so and who is physically able to do so, getting to do what they want with all of that support. Most people don't get privilege in the first place.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
Lucky ? You can't possibly be serious. There's no luck in competitive sports. It's hard work and dedication.
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You're lucky to be living that life and getting that start in the first place. The level of unrecognised privelige being exhibited here is insane.
 
Shamwow said:
I said that because the situation described was of someone getting strongly supported by a family who is financially able to do so and who is physically able to do so, getting to do what they want with all of that support. Most people don't get privilege in the first place.
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Excuse me not wasting anymore time on you, you have no idea what you are talking about. It's like Spot the Troll in this topic.
 
oates said:
Excuse me not wasting anymore time on you, you have no idea what you are talking about. It's like Spot the Troll in this topic.
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You are excused, you can take your lack of empathy with you.
 
Alex99 said:
So we just include everyone then? That's the logical conclusion to this line of argument.



Oh, there we are.
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First of all, sorry that I got wound up at someone who consistently has predictable opinions in threads like this making a glib comment about the single worst thing that happened in my life and that dearly I hope happens to none of you lucky lot.

Secondly, yes that is what I would like us to work towards.
 
Shamwow said:
You are excused, you can take your lack of empathy with you.
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Aye, lack of empathy. Like all the empathy for cis women you've displayed thus far with their "immaterial and inconsequential" careers in sport.
 
Alex99 said:
Then you have clearly given this very little thought.
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And you seem to want to stop thinking as you've worked it all out. All we have to do is exclude certain people from competitive sport and all problems are solved. Well done.
 
Shamwow said:
First of all, sorry that I got wound up at someone who consistently has predictable opinions in threads like this making a glib comment about the single worst thing that happened in my life and that dearly I hope happens to none of you lucky lot.

Secondly, yes that is what I would like us to work towards.
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You have no clue and think being clueless gives you the right to be offensive as well as using whatever event in your earlier life gives you the self righteous superior mugging off attitude.
 
Alex99 said:
Aye, lack of empathy. Like all the empathy for cis women you've displayed thus far with their "immaterial and inconsequential" careers in sport.
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Winning a game of sport is immaterial and inconsequential in the great scheme of things.
oates said:
You have no clue and think being clueless gives you the right to be offensive as well as using whatever event in your earlier life gives you the self righteous superior mugging off attitude.
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He literally compared me having an actual stroke to me having a wank too often. And you think I'm the offensive one.
 
Shamwow said:
Winning a game of sport is immaterial and inconsequential in the great scheme of things.


He literally compared me having an actual stroke to me having a wank too often. And you think I'm the offensive one.
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Hardly the slight of the century. Imagine how you’d react if you dedicated your life to something just to be cheated out of it by someone else.
 
I'm pretty sure everyone in here has suggested allowing trans competitors to compete in a different division, nobody has said they should not be allowed compete full stop. Maybe initially the divisions would be very small, but in time, given the possibility to compete in the olympics, they would grow and create interest in sport for potential trans athletes.
 
Shamwow said:
He literally compared me having an actual stroke to me having a wank. And you think I'm the offensive one.
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But is he the one using that early life health event as an excuse for not knowing what you are talking about while holding forth on other children's lives?

I'm not making any excuses for Vim.
 
oates said:
But is he the one using that early life health event as an excuse for not knowing what you are talking about while holding forth on other children's lives?

I'm not making any excuses for Vim.
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You are and you can please stop engaging with me now because youre just as bad as him to be honest. Aren't you meant to be a mod or something?
 
Is this what a mental breakdown looks like in text form?
 
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