Transgender Athletes

Penna said:
This is exactly how I see it. Laurel is in her 40s now, and yet she's been selected for the Olympics - despite not being anywhere near good enough when she was competing as a man 20 years previously.

In respect of an athlete who's been taking part in a sport for a couple of decades, I can't think of any sport which requires strength, skill and power where you get better in your 40s. Nothing improves in your 40s in respect of sporting prowess.
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To put into context, Lu Xiaojun, one of the greatest weightlifters of all time is expected to retire after this Olympics at the age of 36, and it's considered mad that he can still compete to that level at his age, and he is 7 years younger than Laurel. In weightlifting you age into 'Masters' at 35.
 
Alex99 said:
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the possibility of retroactively stripping trans-athletes of medals if further study proves they have an unfair advantage, but in this instance, what about the person (in their 20s) that's now missing out on the Olympics because of this inclusion?

I just can't see it ever being fair, and unfortunately, unless numbers become such that trans- categories become a possibility, competing in sports, at least at elite level, might just be something trans- people have to miss out on (in their identified category), as unfair as it seems.
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On the medal thing, I suppose if someone were to lose their medal at a later date the athlete in the next place would be promoted to that position - it has happened with doping convictions. However, it's not like standing on the podium and hearing your national anthem being played in front of a big crowd.

It's also worrying that other female athletes are being told to shut up about Hubbard's selection. This is from Tracey Lambrech, a retired female elite weightlifter:
"I'm quite disappointed, quite disappointed for the female athlete who will lose out on that spot," Lambrechs, who won a bronze medal for New Zealand at the 2018 Commonwealth Games, told TVNZ.

"We're all about equality for women in sport but right now that equality is being taken away from us.

"I've had female weightlifters come up to me and say, 'what do we do? This isn’t fair, what do we do?'. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do because every time we voice it we get told to be quiet."
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https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/s...transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/
 
Penna said:
On the medal thing, I suppose if someone were to lose their medal at a later date the athlete in the next place would be promoted to that position - it has happened with doping convictions. However, it's not like standing on the podium and hearing your national anthem being played in front of a big crowd.
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I don't believe that at the elite level full equality is possible without undermining sporting competition. It comes too close of defeating the object of having separate categories for women. I take women's sport too seriously as a contest to want to see it weakened, and I see top level competition as an aspirational thing, something that can help inspire kids to participate and adults to support.

It should be possible to do more on the inclusivity front though, certainly outside the elite level I see less conflict and more opportunity to find solutions that are fair to the individuals (though contact sports may need to think carefully about any implications).

In elite sports where there's no direct one-to-one competition (like ones where it's about times run or weight lifted) you could reasonably allow all women to compete, with the addition that if the trans-woman wins a medal then a second medal of the same rank would also be awarded. Not perfect on an equality front but offering something closer to inclusion. Retrospective loss of a medal sounds too cruel when no cheating is involved. I'm working on the assumption there that such an event will be a rarity, if it became routine we might have to revise it, but it would be off the back of evidence rather than instinct.
 
Alex99 said:
She is quite literally a biological male, that was born with an intersex condition. She has XY chromosomes and was born with internal testes as a result of her intersex condition. These are facts.

You quite clearly have no idea what you're on about.



Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the possibility of retroactively stripping trans-athletes of medals if further study proves they have an unfair advantage, but in this instance, what about the person (in their 20s) that's now missing out on the Olympics because of this inclusion?

I just can't see it ever being fair, and unfortunately, unless numbers become such that trans- categories become a possibility, competing in sports, at least at elite level, might just be something trans- people have to miss out on (in their identified category), as unfair as it seems.
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Swing and a miss pal. Sorry, you're the one who has NO idea what they're talking about. Claiming Caster is biologically male is very offensive to inter sex people
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Swing and a miss pal. Sorry, you're the one who has NO idea what they're talking about. Claiming Caster is biologically male is very offensive to inter sex people
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Is it offensive, or is it just a statement of scientific fact?

Intersex people aren't a third sex category; they're either biologically male (XY chromosomes) or biologically female (XX chromosomes) and will have a sex-specific condition that causes them to be intersex. Intersex isn't a condition itself, it's a general descriptor applied to many different conditions. Some of these conditions may manifest themselves as chromosomal diffrences (XXY males being one of the most common) but are still categorised as affecting either biological males, or biological females.

Caster Semenya, as a person with XY chromosomes, is biologically male. This is fact. Her intersex condition, as the more noticeable ones tend to be, was likely one that caused an abnormality of the genitals and thus she was assigned female at birth.

I don't even know what your stance is on this now. You said earlier that Caster Semenya is a biological female, which isn't true. Then you said it was tautological to say that she is a biological male born with an intersex condition, which, frankly, made no sense. Now you're saying it's offensive to say she's biologically male?
 
Raees said:
It is about being pre emptive as this is becoming more of a thing and if not addressed may completely change the landscape of women's sports in say 20 years.
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sounds like BS to me, and fear mongering. there has been 1 Olympian in the last 17 years, but suddenly the entire landscape of women's sport is going to change in the next 20? what

and on another note, Hubbard is ranked 17 in the world. the way some of you talk it makes it sound like she's utterly dominant, and clearly better than everyone else. there's plenty of women better than her.
 
stepic said:
sounds like BS to me, and fear mongering. there has been 1 Olympian in the last 17 years, but suddenly the entire landscape of women's sport is going to change in the next 20? what
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No one can say for certain what's going to happen, but given the reduced stigmatisation of transitioning, the increasing number of high-profile people that are trans, the increasing ease in which people can access trans- related treatments, and the constant evaluation of rules, it's not unreasonable to think that women's sport could see a somewhat dramatic shift, and it's odd that you're acting as if it isn't something that should be given at least some consideration.
 
Alex99 said:
Is it offensive, or is it just a statement of scientific fact?

Intersex people aren't a third sex category; they're either biologically male (XY chromosomes) or biologically female (XX chromosomes) and will have a sex-specific condition that causes them to be intersex. Intersex isn't a condition itself, it's a general descriptor applied to many different conditions. Some of these conditions may manifest themselves as chromosomal diffrences (XXY males being one of the most common) but are still categorised as affecting either biological males, or biological females.

Caster Semenya, as a person with XY chromosomes, is biologically male. This is fact. Her intersex condition, as the more noticeable ones tend to be, was likely one that caused an abnormality of the genitals and thus she was assigned female at birth.

I don't even know what your stance is on this now. You said earlier that Caster Semenya is a biological female, which isn't true. Then you said it was tautological to say that she is a biological male born with an intersex condition, which, frankly, made no sense. Now you're saying it's offensive to say she's biologically male?
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Great response. How about you send through some proof that Caster is male.
 
stepic said:
and on another note, Hubbard is ranked 17 in the world. the way some of you talk it makes it sound like she's utterly dominant, and clearly better than everyone else. there's plenty of women better than her.
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What's the average age of the 16 women ranked above her? In Hubbard's case, it's not so much sweeping the field, moreso that there's an obvious biological advantage when a 43 year old transwoman is able to remain competitive with ciswomen 20 years their junior.

Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Great response. How about you send through some proof that Caster is male.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

Semenya is an intersex woman, assigned female at birth,[7] with XY chromosomes and naturally elevated testosterone levels.[8][9][10]
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Click on the XY chromosomes bit (I'll link you just in case): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system

Females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX), and are called the homogametic sex. Males have two different kinds of sex chromosomes (XY), and are called the heterogametic sex.[1]
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I've bolded the relevant bits for you.


Do you fancy offering something that proves she's a biological female?
 
Alex99 said:
No one can say for certain what's going to happen, but given the reduced stigmatisation of transitioning, the increasing number of high-profile people that are trans, the increasing ease in which people can access trans- related treatments, and the constant evaluation of rules, it's not unreasonable to think that women's sport could see a somewhat dramatic shift, and it's odd that you're acting as if it isn't something that should be given at least some consideration.
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trans people represent an absolutely tiny percentage of the population. i sure as hell hope there is continued reduction in the stigmatisation of transitioning, that there are more high-profile people that are trans, and that there is ever increasing ease in which people can access trans- related treatments. these would all be awesome things to happen. it's utterly ridiculous though to think this kind of acceptance in society is suddenly going to destroy the competitiveness of women's sport. when, as i keep banging on about, all you have as evidence of this is literally one example, who isn't even in the top 10 of her chosen sport.
 
stepic said:
trans people represent an absolutely tiny percentage of the population. i sure as hell hope there is continued reduction in the stigmatisation of transitioning, that there are more high-profile people that are trans, and that there is ever increasing ease in which people can access trans- related treatments. these would all be awesome things to happen. it's utterly ridiculous though to think this kind of acceptance in society is suddenly going to destroy the competitiveness of women's sport. when, as i keep banging on about, all you have as evidence of this is literally one example, who isn't even in the top 10 of her chosen sport.
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We just ignoring that it's a 43 year old competing with a bunch of 20 something year olds then?

For someone clearly so desperate to paint other people as ignorant, you're awfully blinkered on this.
 
stepic said:
trans people represent an absolutely tiny percentage of the population. i sure as hell hope there is continued reduction in the stigmatisation of transitioning, that there are more high-profile people that are trans, and that there is ever increasing ease in which people can access trans- related treatments. these would all be awesome things to happen. it's utterly ridiculous though to think this kind of acceptance in society is suddenly going to destroy the competitiveness of women's sport. when, as i keep banging on about, all you have as evidence of this is literally one example, who isn't even in the top 10 of her chosen sport.
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Its a difficult subject for a number of reasons but it will be very sad if this situation devolves into a transphobic issue. Im expecting it to become very intense as the start of the OIympics gets even closer.
 
Alex99 said:
We just ignoring that it's a 43 year old competing with a bunch of 20 something olds then?

For someone clearly so desperate to paint other people as ignorant, you're awfully blinkered on this.
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There have been other older Athletes competing very successfully against 20 somethings at the Olympics in the past, not sure why this is so important to you.
 
stepic said:
either trans women are women or they're not. you can't say 'trans women are women, but not when it comes to athletic competition. in that case they're men'. that is such an absurd hill to die on when it comes to LGBT rights.

and again, as i've already pointed out, there's been one solitary trans woman at the Olympics since 2004, when trans women were first allowed to compete. the discussion in here makes it sound like the women's events are being dominated and taken over by the trans community. that simply isn't the case.
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I’m sorry that sports science says the exact opposite of what you want it to say, but the data is pretty clear cut.

As a coach of one of the oldest Olympic sports, I care very deeply about the integrity of the competition being preserved. The current science shows that this is not the case.
 
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Stack said:
There have been other older Athletes competing very successfully against 20 somethings at the Olympics in the past, not sure why this is so important to you.
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In this specific sport? You may want to have a look through the fields of previous Olympics.

I've said plenty of times why it doesn't sit comfortably with me.
 
Penna said:
On the medal thing, I suppose if someone were to lose their medal at a later date the athlete in the next place would be promoted to that position - it has happened with doping convictions. However, it's not like standing on the podium and hearing your national anthem being played in front of a big crowd.

It's also worrying that other female athletes are being told to shut up about Hubbard's selection. This is from Tracey Lambrech, a retired female elite weightlifter:

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/s...transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/
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One of the reasons NZ finds itself in this situation is because as long as Athletes have followed the IOC selection criteria and the athletes have met the NZ qualification criteria then Athletics NZ is obliged to select an Athlete. Thats not a bad thing but the fact that the NZ Olympic team as a whole have quite visibly shut up shop on making comment is troubling. Some of them wont want to speak because they dont want to get dragged into what is going to become a very bitter argument, some wont want to be seen as picking sides but some are from what I can gather here following guidelines or being told to stay quiet.
 
Alex99 said:
What's the average age of the 16 women ranked above her? In Hubbard's case, it's not so much sweeping the field, moreso that there's an obvious biological advantage when a 43 year old transwoman is able to remain competitive with ciswomen 20 years their junior.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya



Click on the XY chromosomes bit (I'll link you just in case): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system



I've bolded the relevant bits for you.


Do you fancy offering something that proves she's a biological female?
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Yes I too have read the wiki article.

That also states....

Semenya is an intersex woman
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As I said, swing and a miss.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Does it? In all cases?
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Yes.

Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Yes I too have read the wiki article.

That also states....



As I said, swing and a miss.
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As I said, you don't know what you're on about.

Caster Semenya is a woman. I've never disputed that.

Caster Semenya is also a biological male.

Would you describe Eliot Page, a man, as a biological female, or do you genuinely believe that now he's transitioned, he is biologically male?
 
Hugh Jass said:
Look at pianists though. That you have more women playing the piano from a young age, means you get more talented female pianists.

Ever hear of the Polgar sisters. Their father bet that he could teach them to become grandmasters at chess. One of them did.
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I mean I'm aware of that, there's equal opportunity but in some cases there aren't enough girls interested in those activities. In the case of chess women performing worse was attributed to psychological factors. The ELO rating already measures your skill but when playing men of the same ELO women performed worse and men didn't play better but became more tenacious (they were less likely to surrender against women compared if they played another man). It could have something to do with a inferiority complex and the some traits that are more prevalent in male such as aggressiveness and competitivity. In esports there was a case of an all female team playing in some league in Russia and the team was so bad they had to retire the team from the competition as they were losing so bad every match to the point of their participation being pointless. There were some very special circumstances around that and like you mentioned it was a case of not being enough girls in the community that can play at the highest level just like in chess there aren't many grandmaster girls to begin with.

So what I would take about this is that there's much more to being a certain sex than just testorone levels. It's a complex matter and I'm more of the opinion that transgender women shouldn't participate in the women category, at least not yet.
 
Carolina Red said:
I’m sorry that sports science says the exact opposite of what you want it to say, but the data is pretty clear cut.

As a coach of one of the oldest Olympic sports, I care very deeply about the integrity of the competition being preserved. The current science shows that this is not the case.
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You’ve not really addressed either of my points.

As for yours, yes, men are generally stronger than women. Some men are also stronger than other men. Some women are also stronger than other women. Some women are also stronger than other men. There isn’t 100% integrity in any sport because we are all different, mentally and physiologically. That’s what makes sport interesting.
 
jojojo said:
In elite sports where there's no direct one-to-one competition (like ones where it's about times run or weight lifted) you could reasonably allow all women to compete, with the addition that if the trans-woman wins a medal then a second medal of the same rank would also be awarded. Not perfect on an equality front but offering something closer to inclusion. Retrospective loss of a medal sounds too cruel when no cheating is involved. I'm working on the assumption there that such an event will be a rarity, if it became routine we might have to revise it, but it would be off the back of evidence rather than instinct.
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That's actually a really good compromise. The trans women can compete alongside the cis women, and no-one loses out.
 
stepic said:
You’ve not really addressed either of my points.

As for yours, yes, men are generally stronger than women. Some men are also stronger than other men. Some women are also stronger than other women. Some women are also stronger than other men. There isn’t 100% integrity in any sport because we are all different, mentally and physiologically. That’s what makes sport interesting.
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You’ve not addressed the whole ass scientific journal article I’ve posted.

The science isn’t biased. It is what it is. Testosterone blockers do not level the playing field, based on current longitudinal studies.
 
Carolina Red said:
You’ve not addressed the whole ass scientific journal article I’ve posted.

The science isn’t biased. It is what it is. Testosterone blockers do not level the playing field, based on current longitudinal studies.
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So essentially the IOC have got their metrics wrong on this? btw Im not being snide or anything, genuinely trying to work this all out and Im interested in why the IOC could have got this so wrong.
 
Stack said:
So essentially the IOC have got their metrics wrong on this? btw Im not being snide or anything, genuinely trying to work this all out and Im interested in why the IOC could have got this so wrong.
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Basically, yeah.

Unless someone thinks that 5-12% of lean muscle mass loss after 1-3 years of testosterone blockers makes up for adult males starting out with 30-40% more to begin with. Which… if they do, I really wonder about how they judge “fairness” in an athletic competition.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I saw an interview, (I think Conan) where Serena admits that she wouldn't win a game against Andy Murray and that she loves playing women's tennis. She said something that the men are so much faster and hit the ball so much harder.
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I saw an interview with Conan where Paul Rudd played that Mac and Me clip again. Pretty funny, he did it twice.
 
Carolina Red said:
Yes. Males have a Y chromosome, females have two X’s. The Y contains the gene that says you are a male.

That is basic biology.
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Males have a Y chromosome, females have two X's. People with Klinefelter have two XX's and one Y so they're both male and female? Basic biology etc.
 
Carolina Red said:
Basically, yeah.

Unless someone thinks that 5-12% of lean muscle mass loss after 1-3 years of testosterone blockers makes up for adult males starting out with 30-40% more to begin with. Which… if they do, I really wonder about how they judge “fairness” in an athletic competition.
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Well in this case our Athlete has had 15 years of competing as a male before the transition so she has 15 years of base work done while a male and I dont see how that is completely negated by hormone treatment etc.
 
Carolina Red said:
The definition of Klinefelter is “a male with an extra copy of the X chromosome”.
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Right, which means that the "female have two XX's" is wrong in so far as it's supposed to be exclusive, seeing as males can have two XX's as well. Must be intermediate biology.
 
Carolina Red said:
Uh, no.
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What do you mean "uh, no?. You said males have a Y chromosome and females have two X chromosomes, and that this is basic biology. However, intermediate (I guess?) biology says that males can have two X chromosomes (Klinefelter) and that females can have a Y chromosome (Swyer).

If you want to go by chromosomes then you want certain males to compete against females, and females against males. Or, you consider people with Klinefelter as females and peope with Swyer as males.
 
NotThatSoph said:
What do you mean "uh, no?. You said males have a Y chromosome and females have two X chromosomes, and that this is basic biology. However, intermediate (I guess?) biology says that males can have two X chromosomes (Klinefelter) and that females can have a Y chromosome (Swyer).

If you want to go by chromosomes then you want certain males to compete against females, and females against males. Or, you consider people with Klinefelter as females and peope with Swyer as males.
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Bud, genetically if you have a Y chromosome, you have the SRY gene. That means you’re genetically / biologically a male.
 
Carolina Red said:
Bud, genetically if you have a Y chromosome, you have the SRY gene. That means you’re genetically / biologically a male.
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Right, so you consider people with Swyer syndrome males? That's certainly an interesting take. I'm not sure if the medical community will back you on this specific instance of basic biology.
 
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