Toni Kroos | Madridista

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Is this a serious post ? We just signed Juan Mata.

As others have said before, Juan Mata was always on his way out under Mourinho, even the brief playtime Mourinho afforded him was becoming less and less, he wasn't considered a starter and barely even a backup with a world cup coming.
While I recognise players are influenced by money and location, presitige etc more than the current manager in decision making, the Mata scenario was a one off situation.
 
I really don't see any players of a very high caliber agreeing to sign with United as long as Moyes is manager. Sure, we'll get young prospects and a few aging stars. But a world class player enetering his prime? No fukking chance.

Fix the manager problem first, then spray your jizz over players like Kroos.

We always struggled with these type of signings and we'll probably always do
 
As others have said before, Juan Mata was always on his way out under Mourinho, even the brief playtime Mourinho afforded him was becoming less and less, he wasn't considered a starter and barely even a backup with a world cup coming.
While I recognise players are influenced by money and location, presitige etc more than the current manager on average, the Mata scenario was a one off situation.

I don't think it was a one off at all. All of today's established world class players grew up watching Fergie's United, and would love to play for us (if the money was right of course). The idea that established players wouldn't want to come here is a myth thats being driven by the fact that we've been outspent in the transfer market in recent years, which has led a lot of good signings to the sugar daddy clubs.
 
I don't think it was a one off at all. All of today's established world class players grew up watching Fergie's United, and would love to play for us (if the money was right of course). The idea that established players wouldn't want to come here is a myth thats being driven by the fact that we've been outspent in the transfer market in recent years, which has led a lot of good signings to the sugar daddy clubs.

That in itself is more than enough reason to doubt that players will be turned off by Moyes. All that matters in the money and the chance to win trophies. We can offer both.
 
I don't think it was a one off at all. All of today's established world class players grew up watching Fergie's United, and would love to play for us (if the money was right of course). The idea that established players wouldn't want to come here is a myth thats being driven by the fact that we've been outspent in the transfer market in recent years, which has led a lot of good signings to the sugar daddy clubs.

I am afraid that established world class players dont care about Manchester United, SAF, Moyes or anybody else. What they care about is earning outrageous amounts of money for their agents (who are increasingly greedy) and themselves while playing with top clubs who give them exposure (with the least effort and sacrifices) and honours.

We can offer players a competitive salary, exposure and usually honours. However we're not the biggest fish in the sea and there are leagues which require far less effort then the EPL.
 
I am afraid that established world class players dont care about Manchester United, SAF, Moyes or anybody else. What they care about is earning outrageous amounts of money for their agents (who are increasingly greedy) and themselves while playing with top clubs who give them exposure (with the least effort and sacrifices) and honours.

We can offer players a competitive salary, exposure and usually honours. However we're not the biggest fish in the sea and there are leagues which require far less effort then the EPL.

That's true to an extent, however earning a high salary can't be hurt by playing at one of the biggest clubs in the world.
 
That's true to an extent, however earning a high salary can't be hurt by playing at one of the biggest clubs in the world.

There are bigger fish in the sea (in terms of offering bigger salaries) and things will get worse without CL bonuses. If I remember well we also refuse to give bonuses to agents for actually 'assisting' us to get the players we want. That doesnt help much in placing ourselves in the agents good books.

Id say we're 6 top spenders behind the likes of Real, Barca, City, Chelsea and PSG. Bayern has the advantage of dominating the Bundersliga. German players tend to be obsessed to play there.
 
As others have said before, Juan Mata was always on his way out under Mourinho, even the brief playtime Mourinho afforded him was becoming less and less, he wasn't considered a starter and barely even a backup with a world cup coming.
While I recognise players are influenced by money and location, presitige etc more than the current manager in decision making, the Mata scenario was a one off situation.

It's not a one-off at all. There will always be established players who have fallen out of favor at their clubs and become available. This literally happens every season, it's just that we took advantage of this for the first time with Mata.
 
There are bigger fish in the sea (in terms of offering bigger salaries) and things will get worse without CL bonuses. If I remember well we also refuse to give bonuses to agents for actually 'assisting' us to get the players we want. That doesnt help much in placing ourselves in the agents good books.

Id say we're 6 top spenders behind the likes of Real, Barca, City, Chelsea and PSG. Bayern has the advantage of dominating the Bundersliga. German players tend to be obsessed to play there.

That may have been the case in the Fergie era, but we're now apparently looking to move up into the sugar daddy bracket in terms of transfer fees, so shouldn't be an issue.
 
That may have been the case in the Fergie era, but we're now apparently looking to move up into the sugar daddy bracket in terms of transfer fees, so shouldn't be an issue.

If we're moving up a notch that things will change. Once we get back to CL level then people will be surprised that Moyes can 'attract' more big names than SAF.

As I said players dont care about names. Ideally the manager is someone they have already worked with (ex Thiago and Guardiola). However if the salary/perks are right they go anywhere where they can play at a competitive level and win important honours.
 
It's not a one-off at all. There will always be established players who have fallen out of favor at their clubs and become available. This literally happens every season, it's just that we took advantage of this for the first time with Mata.

Exactly. Next in line could be someone like Coentrao or Di Maria (if Madrid sign yet another expensive midfielder/winger to push him out), in the past we wouldn't be interested in such players because 'we didn't go for rejects' which made us miss out on the likes of Sneijder, Robben and a couple others when they were available for relatively low fees. Now it seems like it's going to be exactly the sort of players we will be after which is only good.
 
That in itself is more than enough reason to doubt that players will be turned off by Moyes. All that matters in the money and the chance to win trophies. We can offer both.

Chance to win trophies? under Moyes?

Manchester United was at worst a 50% chance to get a quick EPL medal. With Moyes it's 50% to reach top 4. If players wanted trophies, barcelona/madrid/juve/city/chelsea/psg are their best bet.
 
It's not a one-off at all. There will always be established players who have fallen out of favor at their clubs and become available. This literally happens every season, it's just that we took advantage of this for the first time with Mata.

Do you mean the Real rejects they obligitory cast off from time to time? if so then I would agree, but I wouldn't say its a regular occurance that many other teams cast off players the quality of Mata too often! Thinking about it a bit, Liverpool I suppose picked up a bargain in Sturridge and the guy from Inter but both of those could never, ever have been said to be established stars at the time, more towards wayward youngsters with potential than Mata esq. world beaters.
 
Chance to win trophies? under Moyes?

Manchester United was at worst a 50% chance to get a quick EPL medal. With Moyes it's 50% to reach top 4. If players wanted trophies, barcelona/madrid/juve/city/chelsea/psg are their best bet.

That's sort of true, the general feeling you get under Moyes is that a top 4 will be the pinnacle and the absolute maximum we could achieve without spending £300m on new players. We've kind of reversed the stance from the last few years in the past 12 months - before you went to City for money and to United for trophies, now it's quite the opposite.
 
That's sort of true, the general feeling you get under Moyes is that a top 4 will be the pinnacle and the absolute maximum we could achieve without spending £300m on new players. We've kind of reversed the stance from the last few years in the past 12 months - before you went to City for money and to United for trophies, now it's quite the opposite.

Manchester United was at worst a 50% chance to get a quick EPL medal with SAF. With Moyes it's 50% to reach top 4. If players wanted trophies, barcelona/madrid/juve/city/chelsea/psg are their best bet.

sorry, I missed a crucial part
 
Chance to win trophies? under Moyes?

Manchester United was at worst a 50% chance to get a quick EPL medal. With Moyes it's 50% to reach top 4. If players wanted trophies, barcelona/madrid/juve/city/chelsea/psg are their best bet.

One poor season will not define what or who Manchester United is. The sooner you grasp it, the better for you.
 
Just like another season won't re-define what moyes is. The sooner you grasp it, the better for you

What are you smoking? I am not talking about Moyes here. I am just saying that Manchester United will remain a major pull for most of the top players in the world. One poor season will not change that. Just like a couple of poor seasons did not change how players viewed Madrid, Barca, Bayern, etc. These are footballing powerhouses and United is one of them. What is so difficult to grasp?

Don't let your hatred for Moyes cloud your thought process while reading a post. It was not in support of Moyes but in support of Manchester United.
 
I've said this in another thread. People expecting the Glazers to fork out another 200mil in the summer are crazy. That would bring the sum total of what Moyes will have spent to 260mil+. That's a quarter of the clubs value. Its never going to happen under the Glazers. They would rather sell the club now or sack Moyes, which they aren't brave enough to do. I reckon 2 ok players. One mid and one def. And anyway, Moyes should be made prove himself with what he already has at his disposal. Any serious manager would expect to do well with our squad.
 
What are you smoking? I am not talking about Moyes here. I am just saying that Manchester United will remain a major pull for most of the top players in the world. One poor season will not change that. Just like a couple of poor seasons did not change how players viewed Madrid, Barca, Bayern, etc. These are footballing powerhouses and United is one of them. What is so difficult to grasp?

Don't let your hatred for Moyes cloud your thought process while reading a post. It was not in support of Moyes but in support of Manchester United.

The players don't have eternity, specially top tier players. Do you think players like gundogan, vidal, reus, would want to "Work it up from bottom to make it here with United?" They don't owe anything to us, they're not even supporting United. Why in the world do they have to join a 7th placed team, work their ass up to be in the CL, when every other teams that could afford them are already in the CL in the first place.

The point is, you're belittling what negative effect of having a clueless clown as a manager will do to our potential target. Players are excited to work with the best manager, I don't think a player of a very good calibre would relish playing for Evertonesque football.

Unless you agree that they're all a mindless money grabbing cnuts, which i dont
 
The players don't have eternity, specially top tier players. Do you think players like gundogan, vidal, reus, would want to "Work it up from bottom to make it here with United?" They don't owe anything to us, they're not even supporting United. Why in the world do they have to join a 7th placed team, work their ass up to be in the CL, when every other teams that could afford them are already in the CL in the first place.

The point is, you're belittling what negative effect of having a clueless clown as a manager will do to our potential target. Players are excited to work with the best manager, I don't think a player of a very good calibre would relish playing for Evertonesque football.

Unless you agree that they're all a mindless money grabbing cnuts, which i dont

Just think through what you typed. Remember City and before that Chelsea? Remember PSG and Monaco? Remember Bayern when they finished in the Europa League places. Remember Madrid when their Galactico experiment failed badly the first time?

Players come for 1). the money on offer, 2). the prestige of a club, 3). the chance of winning trophies. We can provide all three. One season out of the top 4 will not change that.

Now if we start finishing where we are this season on a regular basis, I could understand your negativity. One season will not change that. We will still be able to attract the top names. Whether Moyes is the man to then take us forward is for a different thread.
 
Just think through what you typed. Remember City and before that Chelsea? Remember PSG and Monaco? Remember Bayern when they finished in the Europa League places. Remember Madrid when their Galactico experiment failed badly the first time?

Players come for 1). the money on offer, 2). the prestige of a club, 3). the chance of winning trophies. We can provide all three. One season out of the top 4 will not change that.

Now if we start finishing where we are this season on a regular basis, I could understand your negativity. One season will not change that. We will still be able to attract the top names. Whether Moyes is the man to then take us forward is for a different thread.

Then we agree in this thread, let's fight in another thread. lol

on the serious note:
Chelsea have proven one thing in football, that with a sugar daddies, you can propel a team to the elite status in 1 season. Take a look at their first big name signing , none of them are on the 1st class tier, a very good player in the EPL (Duff) and a couple of bordering on very good (Drogba/Sheva?)

After that, players knew that going into sugar daddies is not such a bad options after all, they might actually win trophies in the "NEAR" future.

However, chelsea overpaid all their first year signing. Should we go down that route is the more apt questions. Sure if you offer players 300-400k / week, there's a big chance that they would want to play for us, but are we willing to go down that route? What about all the ethos of the club, United way we have build all these years? one bad season and we're resorting to bending our ass and hire mercenaries? There's one thing paying over the odds for a special player, but if we start overpaying players on a regular basis, I don't think it'll end well.
 
Then we agree in this thread, let's fight in another thread. lol

on the serious note:
Chelsea have proven one thing in football, that with a sugar daddies, you can propel a team to the elite status in 1 season. Take a look at their first big name signing , none of them are on the 1st class tier, a very good player in the EPL (Duff) and a couple of bordering on very good (Drogba/Sheva?)

After that, players knew that going into sugar daddies is not such a bad options after all, they might actually win trophies in the "NEAR" future.

However, chelsea overpaid all their first year signing. Should we go down that route is the more apt questions. Sure if you offer players 300-400k / week, there's a big chance that they would want to play for us, but are we willing to go down that route? What about all the ethos of the club, United way we have build all these years? one bad season and we're resorting to bending our ass and hire mercenaries? There's one thing paying over the odds for a special player, but if we start overpaying players on a regular basis, I don't think it'll end well.

Sheva came after they had won 2 titles on the bounce. Are you forgetting the likes of Robben, Essien? They played a huge part in their title wins. And we can all kick Kenyon's nuts for that.

What you are forgetting that Chelsea were not the same category as us. We are perennial winners for over 2 decades now and have won everything there is to win. Compare that to Chelsea who had not win the title in God know how many decades. Look at Ozil and Arsenal. Arsenal have not won a title for 8 years now, yet Ozil went there.

I feel like I am just saying the same thing in all my posts but I will say this the last time. One poor season will not change how we are viewed in world football. If you feel differently then I won't discuss this further since nothing will change your mind. Not even facts.
 
Sheva came after they had won 2 titles on the bounce. Are you forgetting the likes of Robben, Essien? They played a huge part in their title wins. And we can all kick Kenyon's nuts for that.

What you are forgetting that Chelsea were not the same category as us. We are perennial winners for over 2 decades now and have won everything there is to win. Compare that to Chelsea who had not win the title in God know how many decades. Look at Ozil and Arsenal. Arsenal have not won a title for 8 years now, yet Ozil went there.

I feel like I am just saying the same thing in all my posts but I will say this the last time. One poor season will not change how we are viewed in world football. If you feel differently then I won't discuss this further since nothing will change your mind. Not even facts.

It doesn't. in all honesty.

We failed to progress to the knock out stages several time under SAF, falls to third several times, and have been written off numerous times in the past, but players would continue to come, because the Godfather is here. This time there's no SAF to bail us out, and for the first time ever in my United supporting life, I met the things called "Uncertainty", while previously the only uncertainty I've faced is how long till SAF retires.
 
It doesn't. in all honesty.

We failed to progress to the knock out stages several time under SAF, falls to third several times, and have been written off numerous times in the past, but players would continue to come, because the Godfather is here. This time there's no SAF to bail us out, and for the first time ever in my United supporting life, I met the things called "Uncertainty", while previously the only uncertainty I've faced is how long till SAF retires.

You're being melodramatic.

Suarez just signed a new contract with Liverpool when they haven't won a title in decades and haven't won anything of merit in the best part of a decade.

It'd take Moyes' entire 6 year contract of having us languishing in 7th for player's to start questioning moving. But by this point he'd have been sacked and replaced anyway.
 
One poor season will not define what or who Manchester United is. The sooner you grasp it, the better for you.

To supporters clearly not. To cash and success hungry foreign players, I am not so sure that who Manchester United is/was/will be etc is of as much relevance as you think.
 
To supporters clearly not. To cash and success hungry foreign players, I am not so sure that who Manchester United is/was/will be etc is of as much relevance as you think.

Perhaps after next year should we have a decent season under Moyes and start looking like a force again.
 
if Bayern are so confident why are they insisting on him being there. Just say nothing and make us look silly. Kroos wants a lot more money than they are willing to pay. The wages we can offer will simply be more than double. All we have to do is agree the fee with Bayern.

Indeed. If he's been offered anywhere near the sort of money rumoured, it seems clear he isnt going to stay because Bayern will evidently not offer him a comparable deal. Even if he doesnt move this summer and Bayern hold out, he cabn then probably have his pick of clubs and mega wages anyway.

They may insist on keeping him - fair play if they do stand by that, and let him go on a free. But if we are interested and will pay £35 - £40 million as runoured, then that will really test their resolve.
 
The fact that Moyes is the manager will not put off any world-class players from joining United. Despite the season we've had, they'll take into consideration the caliber of the club, the history, what it stands and know that post-SAF, it's an exciting project to be part of. The money will certainly help but that will only be part of the reason why a player would want to join United.

Over the past week or so we've heard that Kroos has told family/friends that he wants to join United, Munich have come out and said that he's staying, we're willing to offer £260,000 a week to him, his apparent agent has come out and said there has been no official offer (which is true as it won't be official until June 1) so we can't rule anything out with Kroos at the moment. I've no doubt that United will be looking to wrap up deals early, certainly before the World Cup. Carvalho & Shaw are tipped to be done & dusted sooner rather than later. Personally, I think we'll wrap up the long term targets and if another player signs at the World Cup, we may very well be bidding for them, depending on the position they play, as there is no point bringing in a goalkeeper when we have one in De Gea.
 
One poor season will not change how we are viewed in world football.

Agreed. If you looked abroad and saw it happening to Real Mardrid or Bayern, what would you think? Its a blip and they'll come roaring back, sooner rather than later.
 
Kroos 100% will not be coming. Gundogan too 100% will not be coming. So I wonder who that leaves as the central midfielder out there available that we need? We should be looking for the new Coutinho out there at the right price
 
Calm down man, it wasn't a personal attack.

First off, if United are willing to give him the same wages as Rooney there is something seriously wrong. He isn't Fabregas. 300 grand is a lot to give someone if you don't even know if they could play in the premiership or not. So I doubt that's ever going to happen. If it does I will seriously question Moyes and Woodwards ability to make sound transfer decisions. I would rather they paid 300,000 a year to entice a Yaya Toure, Swiensteiger (I think that's how you spell it) or someone that's a finished article. 300,000 a week is crazy money for a player like Kroos.

The point you made about the younger player is a good one, but.. Kroos is up for a contract renewal soon, and who knows what Bayern will offer him. As the old saying goes, if its not broke don't try to fix it. The contract Kroos is on is probably an old one. And Bayern saying "will try their best" means, if he demands the cash, we'll give him what's reasonable for a player of his stature. I'm sure Guardiola sees him as a natural successor for Bayern in midfield anyway.

And I never said Bayern and Pep are perfect.. just a lot more perfect than what United are offering.. at the minute. I think we will sign a midfielder, but an established one, like a Strootman. Not a youngster who has yet to really prove he is capable at the highest level.

Why are you telling me to calm down, where in my post do I seem angry or annoyed? This is a forum for debating, so if you need to tell someone to calm down because they questioned your post in a civilized manner, I feel you are in the wrong place.

Yes, £300,000 is a lot of money (nearly £50k more than reported figures for his wages so not quite sure why it's even being used but ok), so let's say we're offering him £240,000 like the reports say, because I haven't seen £300,000 p/w anywhere.It's pretty obvious that this guy is an exceptional talent; if he is close to his peak, then that's still amazing as he is a top, top CM at his age and would pretty much be one of the best in the CM instantly. That wage on a 5 year contract would take him up to 29 years old, which is a good amount of time for someone to be earning such a high wage. It's a lot more stable than offering a 21 year old £160,000 a week like Hazard, or £200,000 like Gotze. Neymar I believe is earning even more than these two, so that's pretty bad. As I've heard from the Rooney deal, his contract has been changed to a more commercially-orientated one, which means that United are in fact paying less in terms of weekly wages, but allowing for greater exposure to his commercial revenue: this could make for a good opportunity for Kroos too, so I would imagine we pay less than the reported £240,000, and considering he would be the first German player to play for United in, well, forever, so I could imagine him having a strong commercial base.

The contract deal has been dragging on since the summer. Remember how everyone got nervy when Rooney continued not to sign? If they had such a good offer for him, it would have been made by now, so disagreement must be continuing, and Kroos' mind must be in limbo, otherwise he would be signed long ago.

And for signing an "established" player like Strootman and not Kroos, you do realise Strootman is the same age as Kroos, been playing for Roma for less than one season and played for PSV before? Whereas Kroos has been part of the Bayern midfield for a solid 4 years now? I'm not quite sure you know what you're talking about now with that point made...
 
Kroos 100% will not be coming. Gundogan too 100% will not be coming. So I wonder who that leaves as the central midfielder out there available that we need? We should be looking for the new Coutinho out there at the right price
Ander Herrera, Ivan Rakitic, Lars Bender, William Carvalho etc... There's a couple of decent names out there. I wouldn't be content with just one midfield signing, I think we need two first team standard.
 
Agreed. If you looked abroad and saw it happening to Real Mardrid or Bayern, what would you think? Its a blip and they'll come roaring back, sooner rather than later.

Exactly and it has happened with Bayern recently. The people are getting carried away because it is new to them.
 
Yes, £300,000 is a lot of money (nearly £50k more than reported figures for his wages so not quite sure why it's even being used but ok), so let's say we're offering him £240,000 like the reports say, because I haven't seen £300,000 p/w anywhere.

And for signing an "established" player like Strootman and not Kroos, you do realise Strootman is the same age as Kroos, been playing for Roma for less than one season and played for PSV before? Whereas Kroos has been part of the Bayern midfield for a solid 4 years now? I'm not quite sure you know what you're talking about now with that point made...

In typical fashion on this forum, another poster has chosen to pick one of three names from my post and focus on that one as if its the only name I said.

I'm wrong there, I thought Bayern's first pick midfield is Schweinsteiger, Martinez, Gotze, Ribery, and Robben? Obviously Kroos has played more of a part this year than I realised.

The reason I said £300,000 is because you said:

you get United offering even more than what your club is offering, being the highest earner at the club (joint with Rooney) and one of the highest in the world?

Rooney is reportedly on £300,000 a week, correct?

I should have used the two names I had originally gone with when I said the established player, Yaya Toure / Schweinsteiger, my bad..

It looks like it makes no difference anyway

http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1...r-says-agent-manchester-united-linked?cc=3436
 
960195-richierich_movie.jpg
 
In typical fashion on this forum, another poster has chosen to pick one of three names from my post and focus on that one as if its the only name I said.

I'm wrong there, I thought Bayern's first pick midfield is Schweinsteiger, Martinez, Gotze, Ribery, and Robben? Obviously Kroos has played more of a part this year than I realised.

The reason I said £300,000 is because you said:



Rooney is reportedly on £300,000 a week, correct?

I should have used the two names I had originally gone with when I said the established player, Yaya Toure / Schweinsteiger, my bad..

It looks like it makes no difference anyway

http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1...r-says-agent-manchester-united-linked?cc=3436

I was focusing on Strootman because it was a bad example, I don't need to question the other two because they are earning around this much now anyway, when we are discussing if Kroos should earn this much. Of course Kroos isn't as established as Schwein or Toure, but the latter was offered £240,000 or so to come from Spain and prove himself at 26, and he was far less rated at that age than Kroos is rated now.

No one really knows what Rooney is on exactly, but a report in the Telegraph/Guardian explained how his true wages are £240,000 a week, with extra coming from commercial revenue. That is what I could see happen with Kroos, but of course I won't know for sure. At the end of the day, I don't give a shit what we pay these people; he's an extraordinary talent, and if our board think he deserves that much, then he deserves that much.

This summer is looking unlikely yeah, but if he doesn't extend then it means us, or someone else, will be getting him for free which would be incredible.
 
And in your opinion who are these "2 young and talented midfielders" that we should buy? You do know that Kroos is only 24? He is almost the finished article at 24 and can only get better. He is exactly what we need in midfield - someone who can take over a game. We need to lift with the club and induce some energy into the squad with a world class signing and signing Kroos definitely sends a message.

Yes I'm aware of Kroos' profile, but through this all it appears to be all about money....how much will United stretch and whether Bayern will match that. Does he believe in his own hype a little too much? He's a great talent no doubt but £40 million and £260,000 per week? He's not been that impressive for Bayern this season, I would expect him to rip up trees for that money.

I'm also not sure your right with the suggestion that he is someone who can "take over a game." He can dictate play when all around him are functioning correctly but I wouldn't put him in that bracket. Roy Keane could do that, Zidane and Xavi could and Pirlo at his height....but Kroos? Possibly but then it all comes down to the coaching and the work on the training ground. Just buying him doesn't equate to him controlling games for us. He could become a very expensive part in a machine that doesn't function correctly.

I wasn't suggesting names in all honesty it was merely an idea that great young talent, hungry talent at that, is out there at the right price if you look hard enough. Just for fecks there was Eriksen, Mykhitarian, Kondogbia, Strootman, Moutinho, Maher etc who went for way under that fee last summer.
 
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