Think you quoted the wrong person there Col
The Ruud transfer fee was bizarre, but I guess that's what happens when you make it so bloody obvious you want a player out of your club, no bargaining power.
Toni Kroos | Madridista
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Think you quoted the wrong person there Col
The Ruud transfer fee was bizarre, but I guess that's what happens when you make it so bloody obvious you want a player out of your club, no bargaining power.
Sooo....shunt Welbeck out wide to be a goalscoring right winger who's solid defensively+offers a load of pace, and get Carvalho in to sweep up? Sounds awesome.
Completely disagree with this, it's like saying Götze, Thiago, Kroos etc is overkill.
It's just 3 players Rozay and Kroos is nothing like Mata or Kagawa so there's huge difference in the make up of qualities there.
Kroos is decent enough there, but would be very good as part of the 2 behind the attackers, next to a defensive mid like Carvalho of course. We definitely need a player like him or Gundogan, a playmaker type. Gundogan would be my preference if he gets over the injuries because of his athleticism and him being a good runner on the ball and pretty quick, but Kroos is more Scholes like in that he's more about intelligent off the ball movement and dictating the tempo of the game with his passing. Both are very good options in their own right, Gundogan would probably make us play at a quicker pace but Kroos would make us dominate games more and give the opposition less time on the ball to hurt us.
Welbeck looks much more comfortable on the left than on the right. And gives his tendency to move infield, he wont be able to provide the necessary protection. Regarding Carvalho, I havent seen much of him but am surprised people believe he's good enough to hold his own alone in the middle in the prem at his age given he's only played in the Porrtugese league.
Except this is not clear cut as you make it out to be , he's an advanced attacking midfielder who played the no.10 role in Jupp's 4-2-3-1 last year and this year he plays ahead of the holding midfielder in a row of 4 in Pep's 4-1-4-1. The only time he has played the role which we want him to play (2 man midfield) was at the earlier stages of last season , and that's only because Javi Martinez wasn't there. Once Javi Martinez came back, he was the first choice to play in that 2 man midfield with Schweinsteiger, which worked excellently. He is unproven playing consistently at a top level in this 2 man midfield and could be a gamble for £40m+.
I can see where you're coming from but I don't see it as an issue. Like I said, if we get someone like Carvalho alongside him then he'll be fine. Add a world class CB and a LB then the team will be fine.
If Balu is right, he's better defensively than I seem to think which is a good sign. But I just cant see us being solid enough with a middle 2 of Carvalho and Kroos in any big game when the players ahead of them are MAta and Kagawa. I specially dont get how ready everyone is to believe that Carvalho is that good. He's young and has played in the Portugese league only, totally untested at the top level yet people already expect him to be good enough to not just slot right in in our starting 11 but to be solid enough to play in a middle 2 with someone like Kroos.
Well then, have Welbeck operating from the left and Kagawa drifting in from the right. I think Welbeck is versatile enough to operate effectively from either flank, though. And I think Carvalho will surprise a lot of people. The best players from the Portuguese league (Matic, R Carvalho, Ronaldo etc) have done pretty well in England.
Nope, cant see it working if Kagawa is coming in from the right instead of the left. He has to be tucked in on the left and then we need a solid right winger.
Fwiw, I totally rate Kroos and would be over the moon if we got him. Just that I'd rather get a more solid option, say a Vidal. Offensively not as good but defensively better and a much better engine.
Even the great Madrid side with Galacticos had Makalele AND Flavio Conceicao to hold. Seems many are saying as long as we get Carvalho too then we can leave it all to him. Even he isn't the quickest, teams will love countering us.
You don't lose much technique by switching Kroos for Gundogan or Koke for example, but I feel it would make the team much more balanced. I would take Bastian from Bayern before Kroos and partner him with Carvalho. Maybe not actually, but that would just be because of age.
Arsene Wenger has had similar ideology to many of you guys and it hasn't gotten him very far. Just pack all the techno-midgets in one team and hope for the best.
You don't lose much technique by switching Kroos for Gundogan or Koke for example, but I feel it would make the team much more balanced. I would take Bastian from Bayern before Kroos and partner him with Carvalho. Maybe not actually, but that would just be because of age.
Arsene Wenger has had similar ideology to many of you guys and it hasn't gotten him very far. Just pack all the techno-midgets in one team and hope for the best.
Think about how successful we were playing Scholes and Carrick in a midfield two. We got to a champions league final with Carrick and Giggs. We'll be find defensively with Carvalho and Kroos in there. Carvalho is a defensive midfielder, mostly resembling somebody like Viera according to one of the portuguese people on here, and he's already a very good player (won his 4th player of the month this season despite being only 20 years old). Kroos is no worse then Scholes was defensively, he's not a defensive midfielder but he's not an attacking one. We'll look a lot more solid overall and better going forward with them two in there.
Also, Kagawa isn't bad defensively, at all. He doesn't get stuck in but he presses really well and he covers passing lanes really well, and is better defensively then somebody like Young. Don't think we'd be too attacking at all. How do Madrid do it, playing Modric and Xabi Alonso as the 2 defensive midfielders with Bale, Ronaldo and Di Maria ahead of them? Dortmund similarly have 1 defensive midfielder next to a playmaker like Sahin/Gundogan. It's a pretty common formation these days actually, and isn't too attacking or too lightweight defensively.
Well it is. Bayern themselves don't set up like that in big games, they have 2 pacy hard workers on the wings in Robben and Ribery , one holding midfielder in Lahm and then two advanced attackers who will be two of those 3 that you mentioned. They played all three of them with Martinez playing the holding role in that Arsenal (Emirates) game and they got torn apart in the first 20 minutes until Arsenal had a man sent off.
Think you quoted the wrong person there Col
The Ruud transfer fee was bizarre, but I guess that's what happens when you make it so bloody obvious you want a player out of your club, no bargaining power.
We're so consistently rubbish at transfers.
Of course, we're here speculating over perfection really. Kroos and Carvalho will make us a fair bit better than we are now. Just for the sake of sitting on an internet forum and building the perfect team with the perfect blocks, Kroos wouldn't be my first choice. As I said in another thread, I'd possibly even prefer a Carvalho/Song partnership in the midfield, proiding Song was back to his Arsenal best anyway. The likes of Adnan, Mata and Kagawa could just get on with it then, with proper protection from behind, with Song also contributing capably in both halves.
Song over Kroos? I bet then people will moan that we got too many holding midfielders in the team. We'd have three Fellaini, Carrick and carlvalho. Yes Fellaini isn't all that, but he was bought for that role. We should break the bank for Kroos. It's alright having Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj. But we also need someone who can dictate a game. Otherwise we'd get Mata or Kagawa coming deep and the whole system failing.
You guys know Kroos can play in a two man midfield. He did it against Chelsea in 2012.
Our problem isn't just lack of protection from midfielder. But the gaps between midfield and defence. That is down to our ageing defence, which we will sort out in the summer.
You guys know Kroos can play in a two man midfield. He did it against Chelsea in 2012.
Our problem isn't just lack of protection from midfielder. But the gaps between midfield and defence. That is down to our ageing defence, which we will sort out in the summer.
I sometimes wonder why people get so caught up in how players play for other teams. Just because they play in a particular fashion for a successful team that doesn't mean they are able to replicate it in another, similarly it doesn't mean they don't have attributes that are undervalued or underused. Honestly who would have confidently said Lahm would be a superb DM or Martinez could play so comfortably at CB? Within a season Pep has converted these players from being able to 'do a job' in their new role to making it their own.
I dont see it working in big games. It'l be fine for the rest but whenever we're up against top opponents, we'l struggle if we play these 2 only. Real didnt play Modric and Alonso vs the big names, ditto Dortmund.
How else can you judge a player other then how they are playing at their current or past clubs? Martinez also played at CB quite a few times for Atheltic Bilbao before going to Bayern, everyone was guessing Pep would play him there. Lahm was always a class player and very intelligent, but I'll give you that nobody expected Pep to play him there so much.
Yes they did. Dortmund always play:
Lewandowski
Reus Mkhitaryan Kuba
Bender Sahin
Replace Bender with Kehl or Sahin with Gundogan, and then Kuba with Aubamayeng. Real Madrid used to play Khedira next to Alonso always, which is almost identical to a Carvalho-Kroos partnership. Except since Khedira is injured they play Alonso next to Modric, just like they did against Barca recently and against Dortmund. People get too caught up in playing pure defensive mids. You play 1 defensive midfielder, then one who's more of an all around midfielder next to him to dictate tempo or provide the creative spark. It's not like Gundogan is way better then Kroos defensively either. Playing Carrick next to Kroos wouldn't work in big games, but a player like Carvalho and it's perfectly fine.Reus Mkhitaryan Kuba
Bender Sahin
Bender and Sahin are both very good defensively though. Same with Gundogan when compared to Kroos. Ditto with Real when they play Alonso and Khedira, both solid defensively.
Anyways, to the more interesting bit. why would carvalho and kroos work but not carrick and kroos?
Carvalho is a lot more physical and mobile then Carrick, pretty much, along with being arguably better defensively from what I've heard. Carrick and Kroos would both be way too stationary and are very similar players. But then again Scholes-Carrick worked, but that was 5-6 years ago. Carrick of these days is too static and is the one dictating tempo, and Kroos is just a much better and more creative version of him. Not quite as good defensively, but he's not shit defensively by any means. And yes, Bender is great defensively, but Sahin is the deep lying playmaker for them and it'd essentially be the same formation and tactic as playing Carvalho-Kroos. One defensive midfielder who is very good defensively, but also a mobile player, next to a more creative player who dictates the tempo. Gundogan is different in that he takes more risks and is quicker, runs with the ball more so I'd prefer a player like him, but there's no reason as to why it wouldn't work with Kroos.
Nah, it's way too slow. Got to have some real pace on at least one of those flanks.
I suppose what I mean is just because a player plays in a certain way for their current club doesnt mean they can't adapt to play differently when they move, the very best scouts/coaches pick up the subtlety of their play. I believe Kroos has the natural talent and intelligence to play as a lone DM if required, just because he hasn't previously shown the discipline doesnt mean he hasn't got it. On the same note there's no reason why United can't develop their own style of football, again Pep and Barcelona are a prime example. Who would have really imagined the midgets of Barcelona would've worked when so many other teams around them relied on pace and physicality.
From what I've read about him on the caf, posters arent really sure about Carvalho's mobility. Also, you have to consider that if he comes here, it'd be his 1st season in the PL, an entirely different proposition. Still, I agree in theory though but only if Kroos is better defensively than I think he is. Balu certainly feels so. Lets see. If Carvalho is the mobile midfield monster people think he is and Kroos is someone who doesnt just provide us the creativity from the middle but also be solid defensively, it'd be great. Lets hope we sign them 1st
From what I've read about him on the caf, posters arent really sure about Carvalho's mobility. Also, you have to consider that if he comes here, it'd be his 1st season in the PL, an entirely different proposition. Still, I agree in theory though but only if Kroos is better defensively than I think he is. Balu certainly feels so. Lets see. If Carvalho is the mobile midfield monster people think he is and Kroos is someone who doesnt just provide us the creativity from the middle but also be solid defensively, it'd be great. Lets hope we sign them 1st
Carvalho looks like the sort of player that shouldn't be mobile (sorry to bring up the same comparison everyone does but same as Toure) but surprisingly is. It shouldn't make sense; but it does. If we were fortunate enough to sign 2 CMs, and it is those two, then I woulnd't be too concerned about the mobility. We've done fine without blistering pace in CM for decades now; Scholes and Keane weren't fast but they did get around the pitch well enough, which is what these two can do capably.
It'd be great if you're right. With his built, mobility would make him a big force. And yeah, we dont need pace there, just players who can move freely. Too static our midfield atm with Fellaini and Carrick.
For what it's worth I don't think kroos is going anywhere, and certainly not to united as everyone will be interested in him, but in the hypothetical situation that we signed him, I think it'd be great.From what I've read about him on the caf, posters arent really sure about Carvalho's mobility. Also, you have to consider that if he comes here, it'd be his 1st season in the PL, an entirely different proposition. Still, I agree in theory though but only if Kroos is better defensively than I think he is. Balu certainly feels so. Lets see. If Carvalho is the mobile midfield monster people think he is and Kroos is someone who doesnt just provide us the creativity from the middle but also be solid defensively, it'd be great. Lets hope we sign them 1st
Just read the last few pages, refreshing to read a proper discussion and debate about various options.
No insults ( unless I missed it ) and no abuse.
A good read.
No insults ( unless I missed it ) and no abuse.
A good read.
EXCLUSIVE: Kroos wants to join Man United in boost for Moyes but Bayern dig heels in
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-Moyes-Bayern-dig-heels-in.html#ixzz2yJzjaMxW
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
DM I know but yeah...
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-Moyes-Bayern-dig-heels-in.html#ixzz2yJzjaMxW
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
DM I know but yeah...
If Kroos does actually want to come to us does that indicate we wont be hurt as much as some think by not being in the CL next season with respect to attracting top players?
£20m... I wish that was In something more reliable than the daily racist and we could get a little excited
Depends if we're willing to spuff money all over them I suppose. Kroos would be a marquee signing that would justify it, at least.
It's just something lazy rival fans use to rub it in, but in reality we won't have any trouble attracting and paying the required wages for top talent IMO.
Yeah I think we will still be able to attract top players even when we are out of the CL. The chance to be a catalyst to Utd returning to the CL would be a nice target for any top players ego.
I can see it now:
- United beat Bayern, and continue a fantastic streak to the final to play Real Madrid.
- Kroos tweets saying he will be playing with the European champion as we beat Madrid; he is coming to us!
- In the next couple of days the news comes out that he extends his contract with Bayern, with his tweet pointing to bayern as last year's champions
- Kroos=ultimate WUM.
Kroos's agent Volker Struth: "For months we've been hearing all kinds of rumours and we won't comment on them. But currently I believe that Toni will stay at Bayern at least until 2015."
http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/toni-kroos/poebel-briten-streuen-geruechte-35425294.bild.html
http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/toni-kroos/poebel-briten-streuen-geruechte-35425294.bild.html
That's that then.
For a young player that already has some titles it is the long time perspective that counts. Might be different for an experienced player with a higher age that never won an European title.
Carvalho/Carrick/Fletcher
Reus -- Kroos -- Mata -- Kagawa
Rooney/RVP
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