You can bet your life they will!!
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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You can bet your life they will!!
oh they will. You'd think Kagawa has played as a traditional winger judging by the way people go on and on about it and how Fergie will never get the best out of Kagawa
Well, that's disappointing. Probably not worth getting too worked up about it before it's even happened, though, or seeing people doing it where they're not really.
The key paragraph. Many United fans will somehow miss this point. Well said Brwned. It's like we forgot about the beginning of 11/12 season.
You can argue that Moyes could shift more focus on our build-up play in terms of the areas we choose to receive and pass the ball. Meaning, shifting the ball wide would not be our default option.
Aye. I think he has more to show but holds back for the sake of being tidy.
Fergie’s formation was unique to him among top managers, that’s the main thing - what one prefers to label it is perhaps less important. Saying we played a 4-2-3-1 under Fergie is somewhat misleading, though. Not wrong, necessarily, but misleading. Our wingers both hugged the line and - not least - tracked back in a way you rarely see a contemporary “tucked-in” winger do: It’s a very different sort of interplay between fullback and winger, I’d say. And the Fergie approach also meant more space between the midfield two and the attackers (the wingers, the supposed CAM, who when Rooney played that role was more of a hybrid between an attacking midfielder (with defensive duties) and an old-school, deeper lying “second striker” than a CAM in a modern set-up, and the striker) than what is common in “modern” set-ups.
The gap between CM and the rest (I’m exaggerating this gap, perhaps, but it’s for the sake of clarity) often made it very hard for the “other” midfielder who at any given time partnered Carrick (the DM, or holder, or whatever you want to call it) to make an impact: And it would take a special kind of player to really shine in such a role. Part of our good old CM problem under Fergie was precisely that this “other" role required a sort of player who is very rare these days: A complete midfielder, a latter day Robbo, call it what you will. There were plenty of players around who were arguably better individually than Cleverley, Ando or the others who were used in the role by Fergie. But unless that “other” man was someone truly exceptional, it wouldn’t really make that much of a difference, not in terms of transforming us into a side capable of dominating the middle all of a sudden.
Cleverley is a tidy player, but he isn’t that kind of beast. I think he will benefit from a system which is more “modern” than the one Fergie favoured, making it easier for him to link up, keep the ball moving, pass and move stuff - which he is very apt at.
The gap between CM and the rest (I’m exaggerating this gap, perhaps, but it’s for the sake of clarity) often made it very hard for the “other” midfielder who at any given time partnered Carrick (the DM, or holder, or whatever you want to call it) to make an impact: And it would take a special kind of player to really shine in such a role. Part of our good old CM problem under Fergie was precisely that this “other" role required a sort of player who is very rare these days: A complete midfielder, a latter day Robbo, call it what you will. There were plenty of players around who were arguably better individually than Cleverley, Ando or the others who were used in the role by Fergie. But unless that “other” man was someone truly exceptional, it wouldn’t really make that much of a difference, not in terms of transforming us into a side capable of dominating the middle all of a sudden.
Cleverley is a tidy player, but he isn’t that kind of beast. I think he will benefit from a system which is more “modern” than the one Fergie favoured, making it easier for him to link up, keep the ball moving, pass and move stuff - which he is very apt at.
I have to apologise, you were clearly bang on the money with those predictions. Case in point above.
MoneyMay, any movement on that compilation? Don't dangle the dream and then take it away!
Here you are, Brightonian and co.:
I couldn't convert the 1080i file for some reason, so I downloaded a 720p version. It doesn't matter anyway, but enjoy.
I couldn't convert the 1080i file for some reason, so I downloaded a 720p version. It doesn't matter anyway, but enjoy.
That's such an underwhelming compilation. All he does is play simple 2 yard passes. Nicely put together though, I like the music.
Not sure why your take on things equals "the truth". None of us know exactly how moyes will set us up but if he does get us play differently is some or many ways then whether it is something ferguson set up for through the players he brought in or he would have played the way we did last season anyways and moyes has altered those things because he is a different manager and person is completely debatable.
I also find it weird how you've decided what the narrative is going to be without it taking place hence putting your stamp of stupidity on caftards. Yes, a lot of people think moyes will set up differently to ferguson which doesn't seem far fetche given you know, he isn't ferguson and all good managers are strong minded individuals who have their own take on how to win football games. Of course, some of these things are dictated by the resources at hand but over time if a manager wants his team to play the way he likes he can.
You just seem to be having a go at posters for the sake of it really. A least let this over the top "everything moyes does is different" properly materialise before you rant about it.
Neither of whom operate in the same position AFAIK.
If that's what you see when watching that video, then you don't know what you're talking about. I'm only 1.39 in and already there's much more than that on show. Two nice long passes, a good cross that Jones heads off target, a superb tackle immediately after which he dribbles past two tackles in order to take the ball into space, and a nice pass into Giggs on the edge of the box to set him up for the assist on Lingard's goal. And a lot of neat short passes.
I mean, have you ever watched a Xavi all-touch compilation? The vast majority look something like that.
Cheers MoneyMay, much appreciated. As Redknapp would say, no doubt leaning out of a car window at the time, 'you're a diamond.'
EDIT: Excellent corners from him in that video, interestingly. He's always been a disappointing corner-taker as far as I can remember, but every single one in that comp finds an unmarked United player - two to Jones, one to Evra (the one which he somehow contrives to shoulder), and one onto Giggs' foot at the back post.
People see what the want to see.
United under Ferguson always embraced a pressing game when the need arose. All the times we played Wenger's classic Arsenal sides at Old Trafford the players didn't just sit back on the 18 yard line waiting to gain possession. We saw the likes of Yorke, Cole, Giggs, Beckham, Rooney or Van Nistelrooy harrassing defenders and deep midfielders like men possessed.
If we again fail to sign a top central midfielder then Cleverley will be expected to step up and become integral. I would suggest he will be the man partnering Carrick come the Swansea game. Pray to god neither of them pick up injuries otherwise things start to look pathetic.
If we again fail to sign a top central midfielder then Cleverley will be expected to step up and become integral. I would suggest he will be the man partnering Carrick come the Swansea game. Pray to god neither of them pick up injuries otherwise things start to look pathetic.
It's a nothing compilation. Barring a few nice corners and one cross field pass there's little of note apart from him playing simple 5 yard passes under little pressure or a backwards one under pressure.
Which xavi all touch compilation have you seen of a game where he played well which was as ordinary as that? I refuse to believe it. There's a difference between nothing passes to the guy next to you and what xavi does. The difference is in the context of the pass and what part it plays in the overall scheme of things.
He did well last season.
Majority of the people on the Caf were happy to see him in the starting line-up alongside Carrick no matter how huge was the fixture ahead.
Has good movements that often open space for fullbacks and winger, will play good short passes and always opens himself for the pass.
Hope he budils on that and tries to impose himself this season again.
In the case of another midfield player arrival, he'll become first substitute for CM postion, and that's great option from the bench since he's shown he can play on the highest level.
Doesn't have consistency, for whatever reason, to become world class CM, but has enough ability to perform on that level and that's good enough for me.
Majority of the people on the Caf were happy to see him in the starting line-up alongside Carrick no matter how huge was the fixture ahead.
Has good movements that often open space for fullbacks and winger, will play good short passes and always opens himself for the pass.
Hope he budils on that and tries to impose himself this season again.
In the case of another midfield player arrival, he'll become first substitute for CM postion, and that's great option from the bench since he's shown he can play on the highest level.
Doesn't have consistency, for whatever reason, to become world class CM, but has enough ability to perform on that level and that's good enough for me.
Come on amol, you've been here long enough for us not to have to have that mundane discussion about how I shouldn't have to say IMO after every sentence just to make it clear it is in fact my opinion and how absolute truth doesn't exist, it's just my interpretation of it etc. etc. That's my interpretation of the truth, obviously. And it's not based on some pie in the sky notions, it's based on what I've already read here. You know as well as I do that there are plenty of people that have made it clear they're desperate for a change from this "outdated" setup Sir Alex employed and that has shone through numerous times in discussions about Moyes. I personally have absolutely no doubt in a couple of year's time there will be a general acceptance amongst many that Sir Alex had us playing boring, archaic, unsophisticated football - if you don't agree, fair enough, but that's my take on things.
As for the stuff about Moyes, my point was not that he won't make these changes but rather that he'll be making those changes because of the resources available to him. If you really think that Sir Alex has had no part in facilitating a change of style then I don't know what to say really. De Gea is a ball-playing keeper and he paid a huge sum of money for him; Rafael, Fábio, Evans, Smalling and Jones are ball-playing defenders and he's developed them all from their teens; Powell and Zaha are his two last youth signings and they're obviously very technically proficient; the likes of Cleverley and Welbeck have been integrated into the side with exactly the kind of qualities people talk about being necessary for the "modern game"; and then you've got this batch of highly technical youth players coming through in the last 5 years or so and undoubtedly Sir Alex was involved in the development of this strategy...I dunno, I'd say it's fairly clear that Sir Alex was doing what he's always been doing and continuing to adapt his methods as he goes along. It seems to me that Moyes has done exactly the same thing. That's the thing above all that I disagree with - that Moyes will have one very specific way of playing that he likes. I think it's mental, really. It's the sort of thing that saw Mourinho labelled a defensive manager. Perhaps some people still think that but his Madrid side conceding 42 league goals last season should hint at the fact they weren't built on a solid defence.
In the past, United certainly pressed the opposition but in more recent times - over the last 5 years or so - I felt that was an element of our game which was very lacking. We often dropped back and let the opposition have the ball in our half, which was in stark contract to the Barcelonas etc who wouldn't give you a moments rest on the ball.
Hopefully this is something Moyes' team is working on in training, we certainly have the personnel to employ more of a pressuring game.
Fair enough if you hold that opinion. I'd personally like to believe people here can draw the distinction between fergie and moyes' ways and not mix it up with differing in situations. Of course there's always a sensible faction and a knees jerk faction here which is pretty much the case regarding any topic.
The conversation about the distinction itself is the relevant one rather than our predictions on how fans/the caf will make it. While one could certainly argue that fergie was moving towards a different kind of united going by those purchases, he still didnt do so the last two seasons and its definitely up for debate whether he would have. Kagawa is great on the ball but fergie could also have primarily have gotten him due to his being reasonable and a goalscorer from midfield (ish). Smalling isn't a ball playing centre back IMO. He's oscillated between being great going forward at left and back and pretty laboured on the ball at times. Valencia has remained his favourite wide player despite being awful in recent times. In fact, the one time we deviated from this formula he possibly wanted to deviate from long term, it lasted only a few games at the beginning of the season city won the title and was quickly scrapped which is confusing given it was looking mighty impressive.
I think the debate is an interesting one. I think that resources obviously play a big part in things but I'd say its a certain percentage of it. They have their ways and they have their constraints, and they find a midway between the two.
Has Cleverley ever spoken about his preferred position? Because I don't know what that would be.
I think he's a liability in centre midfield and I can't see him as a No.10 either.
I think he's a liability in centre midfield and I can't see him as a No.10 either.
Do you ever say anything positive?
He's not a liability at all.
Good to know. Thanks.
I'm talking about Cleverley. What do you want me to say? That I think DDG is brilliant, that I love Evans' development as a top defender, that Carrick is invaluable, etc etc?
I'm asking if Cleverley has a preference because I don't think he's cut out for the two positions I referred to.
If ALL your posts are full of optimism and enthusiasm, then by all means go for it.
Otherwise, simply state that you think highly of Cleverley and leave personal jibes out of it.
He's currently in the process of being groomed for a more traditional midfield role. One that he wasn't familiar with and had never played at any decent level until the 2nd half of last season (I know he played in midfield all season but there was a clear shift towards more defensive responsibility in the latter half).
I don't think he's quite good enough at the very top level to play a #10 and that's the reason he's been moved deeper so it's something he's still adjusting to.
Also, due to his age people seem to forget that last season was his first proper season as a member of the first team at United and all tings considered it went well for him despite the obvious tail in the 2nd half.
Tom still has a lot to learn about the positional side of his game....and he needs to learn that quickly this season. Left Carrick exposed far too often last campaign, failing to track runners is a constant gripe for me.
The technical side of his game is fine.
The technical side of his game is fine.
I feel Cleverley will excel more in a 433 formation playing alongside 2 other CM's, where he'd have better protection in the middle and can operate slightly further up with his short pass and move game.
I like Cleverley a lot, and think he improves us when he plays, but his problem imo is he is too much of a percentage passer. Today there were a few times when he could've attempted a through ball where if it came off Evra/Zaha/Welbeck would've been in behind the defence, but he opted for the easy pass to Carrick or another player close to him. I like that he keeps it simple and keeps us ticking over, but sometimes I wish he'd express himself a bit more.
I still think he's the best partner for Carrick we have if we are playing a two man midfield though.
I still think he's the best partner for Carrick we have if we are playing a two man midfield though.
Yeah Im a big fan of Clev and think his quick rotation of the ball is very valuable but I would like to see him have a dribble from time to time. Evra showed the value of it a few times today.
Yeah, the problem for me with Cleverley, and I'm sure others won't agree, is that even though he doesn't really do anything wrong in midfield, he just doesn't really do anything special that makes me think he'll be a top player for us.
I totally agree with that. He's a goof supporting player, but I can't imagine him ever running the midfield.
he won't be world class....great squad player..but not world class...and sure he's young...but for me, and it's only my opinion of course, he just doesn't have "it". Having said that....he has a really hot looking gf....
He was absolutely anonymous today. He needs to a-lot more on the pitch and stop being so overly cautious.
I thought he was pretty good today actually. Well, when he wasn't shooting.
Yeah I would say he seems to be someone who fits in nicely when the team is in gear, but when it's a bit slower he really struggles to have any influence, doesn't give the ball away but doesn't do anything with it either. Also think he still needs to learn not to push up so quick. Still hopefully he'll continue to grow in confidence and start doing more.
He was extremely conservative until we got the second goal and didn't show anything of what he's capable of until deep, deep in the game. IMHO he has never really recaptured the fearlessness he had in his breakout season back in 2011/12. The 3-2 shield win against City and the 8-2 against Arsenal, years later, remain the high points performance wise of his United career.
In 2011/12 Cleverley showed a willingness to take players on and drive forward that hasn't resurfaced since he returned from that Kevin Davies tackle. Has that attacking intent been coached out of Cleverley? Has Cleverley buckled under the weight of expectation? Ultimately only he can answer those questions but I would like to think, whatever it is that's holding him back, he can put it right and play the way we know he can. After we scored the second he seemed to become more himself today but if he's going to keep his spot in the starting XI Cleverley's play has to be the reason for not the consequence of United wins.
I hate that big hoofed clearance he does when opposition attacks/corners etc break down. A bit of composure, bringing it down and a pass out can lead to a counter attack. Instead, when it falls to Cleverley, the next time you see the ball it has snow on it.
I just can't make my mind up regarding Tom. He will have one brilliant game and then go for ages and you don't even realise he was playing.
I think he's a decent player who benefits a lot from the fact that we have absolutely no quality in midfield apart from Carrick, no way he'd be anywhere near the first XI at another big club when you look at their squads.
work hard and did quite well today. disappointed with his aimless clearance at the end, where he could possibly pass to a teammate to start a potential counter attack.
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