Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

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He was excellent today. Did all the things that he has always done so well at his best - movement, high tempo, always open for a pass, quick feet to keep possession, crisp fluent passing. Also tackled and defended excellently, as robust as I've seen him. And at the end when we really started to take the piss he wasn't afraid to join in the flicky flair stuff.

I've said it a few times, and I'll say it again - Moyes is going to suit him much better than Fergie did.
 
I have a feeling that he's going to have a similar start to the season, as he did last season but better. Hopefully he can maintain it throughout the season this time though. He's a very good midfielder when on his game.
 
Brightonian said:
He was excellent today. Did all the things that he has always done so well at his best - movement, high tempo, always open for a pass, quick feet to keep possession, crisp fluent passing. Also tackled and defended excellently, as robust as I've seen him. And at the end when we really started to take the piss he wasn't afraid to join in the flicky flair stuff.

I've said it a few times, and I'll say it again - Moyes is going to suit him much better than Fergie did.
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Ah, he's alright I suppose.
 
He was totally class tonight. Movement was intelligent and crisp. Against the A-League pub cloggers it's not a huge statement but he was very good regardless.
 
Been clear for the last 6 or 7 months that he's being groomed to play in a deeper role than the one he first came into the team in.
 
I think that's a good thing. He isn't technically so good to be an attacking player/playmaker at a top club, but combined with his tenacity and work rate then he can be an excellent all-round CM.
 
Brightonian said:
He was excellent today. Did all the things that he has always done so well at his best - movement, high tempo, always open for a pass, quick feet to keep possession, crisp fluent passing. Also tackled and defended excellently, as robust as I've seen him. And at the end when we really started to take the piss he wasn't afraid to join in the flicky flair stuff.

I've said it a few times, and I'll say it again - Moyes is going to suit him much better than Fergie did.
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Being a fan of Cleverley myself, I hope your last line is true.
 
He's a good player. Hopefully he can steer clear of injuries and grab a few more goals because he's capable.
 
He played very well today. Will be an excellent squad player for years to come.
 
Carl said:
Been clear for the last 6 or 7 months that he's being groomed to play in a deeper role than the one he first came into the team in.
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I think he's always been seen in the 'alongside Carrick' role (the 'mature Paul Scholes' role, if you like). Well, since he moved off the wing and into the midfield for the reserves, that is. Only Hodgson ever seemed to seriously want to play him as an AM.
 
I'm sure he could play further up. He's good at short passes around the box - but when we get Fabregas :drool: - it'd probably be too many cooks so I think he'd continue relatively deep
 
Brightonian said:
He was excellent today. Did all the things that he has always done so well at his best - movement, high tempo, always open for a pass, quick feet to keep possession, crisp fluent passing. Also tackled and defended excellently, as robust as I've seen him. And at the end when we really started to take the piss he wasn't afraid to join in the flicky flair stuff.

I've said it a few times, and I'll say it again - Moyes is going to suit him much better than Fergie did.
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Exactly how will Moyes suit him more than Fergie?
 
Stack said:
Exactly how will Moyes suit him more than Fergie?
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I've discussed it quite a lot earlier in this thread. Can't find the post where I set out my reasons properly, but some of them are in this one:

This is an excellent post. I'm quite caught up in the Thiago excitement, but I'm still a huge fan of Cleverley. I think if we don't buy a replacement for him and he gets a run in the side, people will be hugely surprised at how much better he is under Moyes than Fergie. I know it's heresy to suggest that Fergie did less than bring out the very best in any player, but I simply don't think his approach to central midfield and its importance to the game ever did Cleverley any favours. His eagerness to see players like Jones in midfield says a lot on that front. Hell, it took Cleverley more than two months to finally get the run he deserved ahead of a struggling Giggs and Scholes last season.

Moyes, on the other hand, loves a Cleverley-type player. Osman is a good example. Players with good ball retention, intelligence, movement and tempo - not necessarily the gritty, physical sort or the hollywood 'moments of genius' type, but more useful in actually getting the team to play good quality football.
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I didnt see anything different in Cleverleys play last night than he did under Fergie. All the same elements were there.
 
I agree, it was same old Cleverley. I'd sort of forgotten how much I enjoy having him in the team though.

People are going to see what they want to see to fit in with the narrative that Moyes loves this modern style of play that people are so desperate for us to play. You can bet Kagawa will play exactly the same role as he did last year and people will say "see, that's how he should've been used all along".


His eagerness to see players like Jones in midfield says a lot on that front.

...

Moyes, on the other hand, loves a Cleverley-type player.
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Indeed. Moyes would never play a defender in midfield, it's completely against his "footballing philosophy."

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I don't think Cleverley will suit Moyes any more than he did Fergie, Clevs style is great in a game where we're dominating, I thought he played well today, when he clicks he definitely adds to the team, it's just when the game is tougher/opponents are tougher, sometimes I think last season he often tried to get involved going forward too much, at the expense of his position and at times he could be found wanting when he needed to do that something extra. But he's definitely a good option to have and the more he refines his game the better he will be.
 
Brwned said:
People are going to see what they want to see to fit in with the narrative that Moyes loves this modern style of play that people are so desperate for us to play. You can bet Kagawa will play exactly the same role as he did last year and people will say "see, that's how he should've been used all along".
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This is a really good point, and something that has struck me in many conversations I have had with United fans since Moyes became manager. Glad you mentioned it.
 
Brwned is posting a lot more sense now that Moyes is in charge. He should have been used this way from the start
 
Brwned, seems like you are suggesting fans are overplaying Moyes' changes which I can certainly see. However, I do see a slight shift towards more play in midfield. We were a bit more compact yesterday as well. Are we not seeing some of the signs of the work Moyes was implementing with Everton last season?
 
Too bad he faded in last few months in previous season, but today he reminded how good he was in first half of last season, missed this Cleverley, he was great today.

He needs to work on his long passes though, and power of his passes in general, even tough dry/slow pitch was the main reason he misplaced few.
 
Stack said:
I didnt see anything different in Cleverleys play last night than he did under Fergie. All the same elements were there.
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I never said Cleverley would play differently, just that Moyes may appreciate that type of player more.

Brwned said:
Indeed. Moyes would never play a defender in midfield, it's completely against his "footballing philosophy."
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Very funny and all, but Everton ≠ Manchester United. Having to rely on Phil Neville, a proven, reliable, experienced midfielder at a club with few funds to make improvements is not the same as choosing to play Phil Jones with the likes of Cleverley fit and available, at a club with plenty of funds to buy more suitable players if we wanted to.

Of course, he's already making changes isn't he? All those 'technically excellent' players we've never seen at United before... ;)
 
A little change of approach and the floodgates have opened. All based on one game.
 
I'm going to wait a few game and then make my decision if a different approach has worked.
I've always believed that he's a seriously talented CM, but will never be a world class playmaker. He's tidy, efficient and keeps the ball moving.
His work rate is high, and he keeps things ticking along nicely, and can do far more than that too.

Best to wait and see as the season progresses.
 
I think we will play/have played slightly differently. I think we'll see more of it too. The midfield hasn't looked different but I'm excited to see more of Moyes tactics.
 
Brightonian said:
I never said Cleverley would play differently, just that Moyes may appreciate that type of player more.



Very funny and all, but Everton ≠ Manchester United. Having to rely on Phil Neville, a proven, reliable, experienced midfielder at a club with few funds to make improvements is not the same as choosing to play Phil Jones with the likes of Cleverley fit and available, at a club with plenty of funds to buy more suitable players if we wanted to.

Of course, he's already making changes isn't he? All those 'technically excellent' players we've never seen at United before... ;)
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It'll be funny seeing what people say when Moyes plays Jones in midfield. Rather than accepting that maybe Sir Alex was right to think Jones has some potential there I reckon people will simply turn on Moyes. The other option is we'll simply re-write history and talk about old things as being new. People will see Valencia come inside a little bit and get involved in some clever passing and people will talk about Moyes being some sort of miracle worker for being able to add variety to even Valencia's game...even though that's what he does already. Or when we play intricate passing football people will jump at the chance to say how this would never have worked in this rigid 442 Sir Alex always, despite us playing exactly that kind of football in a variety of different setups.

I have no doubt Moyes will make alterations to our style of play but I think it's absurd that people have already decided what they are and they coincidentally happen to be the polar opposite of everything that was wrong with Sir Alex's rigid 442 (which hasn't existed for over a decade). People have now decided that the style of play Moyes got this recent Everton team playing is his style of play. Pienaar and Arteta played on the wings so he obviously loves these wingers that drift inside, unlike Sir Alex who absolutely hated having wingers drift inside (see Kagawa, Park, Giggs post-'06 or basically anyone who played on the left wing for us over the last 7 years). He has Osman and Barkley in midfield now so he obviously loves these short-passing, technical types unlike Sir Alex who only liked playing hard-working, tough-tackling types + Paul Scholes. The fact that Moyes had Kevin Kilbane in an orthodox left wing role or Lee Carsley in midfield or Tim Cahill in the hole and they played route-one football is now completely ignored or erased from the history books. Oh no, he's evolved his "footballing philosophy" and now he's set on all these new modern trends that everyone loves.

It's completely unthinkable that he builds a team and it's playing style based on the resources that already exist there, and rather than having rigid ideas on how he wants his team to set up he's flexible and willing to see how the team is best suited to playing and then building around that. So when we start playing more intricate passing football and a more intense pressing game it will be directly attributed to Moyes for embracing modern tactics which Sir Alex was completely incapable of. That's the narrative that's already almost fully in place. In truth it'll be down to the fact that Sir Alex brought Welbeck, Cleverley, Kagawa, Zaha and co. into the team because they were ideally suited to helping the team make this transition to a different style of play and Moyes is simply following on the path that he started.
 
Brwned said:
It'll be funny seeing what people say when Moyes plays Jones in midfield. Rather than accepting that maybe Sir Alex was right to think Jones has some potential there I reckon people will simply turn on Moyes. The other option is we'll simply re-write history and talk about old things as being new. People will see Valencia come inside a little bit and get involved in some clever passing and people will talk about Moyes being some sort of miracle worker for being able to add variety to even Valencia's game...even though that's what he does already. Or when we play intricate passing football people will jump at the chance to say how this would never have worked in this rigid 442 Sir Alex always, despite us playing exactly that kind of football in a variety of different setups.

I have no doubt Moyes will make alterations to our style of play but I think it's absurd that people have already decided what they are and they coincidentally happen to be the polar opposite of everything that was wrong with Sir Alex's rigid 442 (which hasn't existed for over a decade). People have now decided that the style of play Moyes got this recent Everton team playing is his style of play. Pienaar and Arteta played on the wings so he obviously loves these wingers that drift inside, unlike Sir Alex who absolutely hated having wingers drift inside (see Kagawa, Park, Giggs post-'06 or basically anyone who played on the left wing for us over the last 7 years). He has Osman and Barkley in midfield now so he obviously loves these short-passing, technical types unlike Sir Alex who only liked playing hard-working, tough-tackling types + Paul Scholes. The fact that Moyes had Kevin Kilbane in an orthodox left wing role or Lee Carsley in midfield or Tim Cahill in the hole and they played route-one football is now completely ignored or erased from the history books. Oh no, he's evolved his "footballing philosophy" and now he's set on all these new modern trends that everyone loves.

It's completely unthinkable that he builds a team and it's playing style based on the resources that already exist there, and rather than having rigid ideas on how he wants his team to set up he's flexible and willing to see how the team is best suited to playing and then building around that. So when we start playing more intricate passing football and a more intense pressing game it will be directly attributed to Moyes for embracing modern tactics which Sir Alex was completely incapable of. That's the narrative that's already almost fully in place. In truth it'll be down to the fact that Sir Alex brought Welbeck, Cleverley, Kagawa, Zaha and co. into the team because they were ideally suited to helping the team make this transition to a different style of play and Moyes is simply following on the path that he started.
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I more or less agree with all this Brwned but won't you agree that the pressing in yesterday's match was much more intense than what we saw usually from Fergie's teams.

Ofcourse I could be putting too much importance into one pre-season match and I don't think Moyes will change/revolutionize our style from Sir Alex but I think pressing higher up the field will be one feature which we'll see from now on.
 
:lol: You're so paranoid! You are the first person I've seen suggest any of those ridiculous opinions. You act as if everyone else in the entire Caf is a moron who thinks we've never played intricate passing football, that Valencia never comes inside and that United have been playing 442 for the last five years. Thank god you're here to set us straight!

All I said was that I think Moyes will suit Cleverley more than Fergie did. You're the one extrapolating these bizarre sweeping opinions from that.
 
Like I said I've no doubt he'll bring his own ideas to the team and pressing could easily be one of them but I think it's a little early to say. It did seem noticeably different to the norm and was very nice to see but whether that's a permanent change I don't know. I think there were a number of games last season where we played Kagawa, Cleverley, Carrick/Scholes and one other in that four-man midfield and we played a more continental passing game with more intense pressing along with that. Then there was the start of 10/11 where we were definitely pressing more than we had done for a long time previous to that, but both of these were only short-lived, temporary experiments. I'm wary of believing that his is a long-term change based on that one game myself.
 
Brightonian said:
:lol: You're so paranoid! You are the first person I've seen suggest any of those ridiculous opinions. You act as if everyone else in the entire Caf is a moron who thinks we've never played intricate passing football, that Valencia never comes inside and that United have been playing 442 for the last five years. Thank god you're here to set us straight!

All I said was that I think Moyes will suit Cleverley more than Fergie did. You're the one extrapolating these bizarre sweeping opinions from that.
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Really? Weird. This kind of thing has been a theme on the caf this summer.

Tarrou said:
Furthermore, Moyes likes his wide men to come inside to create space for the overlapping full-back. Pienaar making those runs in from the left flank is what gave Baines the space to get forward. Baines wouldn't be able to bring that to the team (as a midfielder), he'd just hug the touchline, giving the structure of the team a more old fashioned and rigid look, which Moyes doesn't like, judging from how he has set-up his teams in the past.
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Even though this is what we already do with Evra and whoever plays ahead of him in about 90% of the games.
marjen said:
Interesting to see Lingard's role today. Cutting inside, linking up, it's the sort of role the likes of Kagawa and Nani would probably relish, not too far from the way he utilized Pienaar at Everton.

Getting a bit more variety to our wing play will improve us against sides sitting deep I think.
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Even though this is exactly how Kagawa has played for us already and how Nani pretty much always plays on the left wing nowadays. It might've been the game against Arsenal at the back-end of last where Nani ended up on the same wing as Valencia dozens of times throughout the game. He's essentially had a free role coming off of that left wing for a long time now, as did Park, as did Kagawa. Now we see it happen under Moyes and it's revolutionary. It's there for all to see.
 
I like him, want him to do well here. But I would be really surprised if he becomes a starter. Especially with the rise of adnan and lingard. However, will still be here after anderson at least.
 
That Australian club were so shit on the ball. They looked like they could lose possession at any second, even in their own half. It's no wonder we pressed them! Lets see us do it consistently against teams more comfortable on the ball, without being fatigued or made to look silly. It will take much longer than one preseason to get us playing that way consistently.
 
Brwned said:
It'll be funny seeing what people say when Moyes plays Jones in midfield. Rather than accepting that maybe Sir Alex was right to think Jones has some potential there I reckon people will simply turn on Moyes. The other option is we'll simply re-write history and talk about old things as being new. People will see Valencia come inside a little bit and get involved in some clever passing and people will talk about Moyes being some sort of miracle worker for being able to add variety to even Valencia's game...even though that's what he does already. Or when we play intricate passing football people will jump at the chance to say how this would never have worked in this rigid 442 Sir Alex always, despite us playing exactly that kind of football in a variety of different setups.

I have no doubt Moyes will make alterations to our style of play but I think it's absurd that people have already decided what they are and they coincidentally happen to be the polar opposite of everything that was wrong with Sir Alex's rigid 442 (which hasn't existed for over a decade). People have now decided that the style of play Moyes got this recent Everton team playing is his style of play. Pienaar and Arteta played on the wings so he obviously loves these wingers that drift inside, unlike Sir Alex who absolutely hated having wingers drift inside (see Kagawa, Park, Giggs post-'06 or basically anyone who played on the left wing for us over the last 7 years). He has Osman and Barkley in midfield now so he obviously loves these short-passing, technical types unlike Sir Alex who only liked playing hard-working, tough-tackling types + Paul Scholes. The fact that Moyes had Kevin Kilbane in an orthodox left wing role or Lee Carsley in midfield or Tim Cahill in the hole and they played route-one football is now completely ignored or erased from the history books. Oh no, he's evolved his "footballing philosophy" and now he's set on all these new modern trends that everyone loves.

It's completely unthinkable that he builds a team and it's playing style based on the resources that already exist there, and rather than having rigid ideas on how he wants his team to set up he's flexible and willing to see how the team is best suited to playing and then building around that. So when we start playing more intricate passing football and a more intense pressing game it will be directly attributed to Moyes for embracing modern tactics which Sir Alex was completely incapable of. That's the narrative that's already almost fully in place. In truth it'll be down to the fact that Sir Alex brought Welbeck, Cleverley, Kagawa, Zaha and co. into the team because they were ideally suited to helping the team make this transition to a different style of play and Moyes is simply following on the path that he started.
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I agree with the sentiment of your post re: people re-writing history. People do that ALL the time when it suits them.

However I do think we will see a bit more "inside wingers", high pressing and short passing type stuff under Moyes than we have done or would have done under SAF (which would indeed suit Cleverley down to a tee)

SAF had his style and it would have been wrong for him to shift too drastically from it too quickly. Famous quote from him saying that a manager has to stamp his style on a team and a club, not change their style to fit the club. He was not as inflexible or archaic as many bizarrely like to make out, but he definitely did like to sit deep, counter attack with directness and pace, keep the width and get crosses into the box. In his final season in particular, such was his determination to go out on top, I do think he opted for his preferred style and his most reliable personalities, rather than risk implementing a different style and playing players who flourish with more freedom (i.e constantly picking Valencia). With Moyes, I hope/expect we will see a slightly more contemporary style. As you said, we have the players to do so, and most of the top players in the market today and more suited to that style.
 
Brwned said:
Really? Weird. This kind of thing has been a theme on the caf this summer.


Even though this is what we already do with Evra and whoever plays ahead of him in about 90% of the games.

Even though this is exactly how Kagawa has played for us already and how Nani pretty much always plays on the left wing nowadays. It might've been the game against Arsenal at the back-end of last where Nani ended up on the same wing as Valencia dozens of times throughout the game. He's essentially had a free role coming off of that left wing for a long time now, as did Park, as did Kagawa. Now we see it happen under Moyes and it's revolutionary. It's there for all to see.
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:lol: Agree with you totally, particularly the Pienaar analysis which is always popping up.
 
Brwned said:
Really? Weird. This kind of thing has been a theme on the caf this summer.
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Don't get me wrong, I agree with all of your points. The refusal of people to stop calling our formation under Fergie a 442, in particular, drives me absolutely mad. People agree when you point out that for years we have played 4231, but then a week later in the transfer forum they'll be saying something like 'yes, but that sort of player won't fit in with Fergie's 442.'

I guess I just can't believe that anyone is going to be dim enough to do the whole 'attributing stuff to Moyes' thing which you're predicting. I mean, if we play Kagawa in the #10 position in every match, then that will be something Fergie didn't do, fair enough. But it's also obviously something he was gearing up to do. I'm still certain that Kagawa's situation developed pretty much exactly how Fergie expected it to. A season settling in, playing a lot from a wide-ish position where there's less pressure to immediately perform, and also not immediately coming in and pushing Rooney out of his best position. Then as his form kicked in, we started to give him more games at #10, getting him ready for the eventual role which he will presumably step into this season. So Moyes won't be changing anything, just continuing the process.

Using this as an example, surely pretty much everyone on here realises that? No-one is going to see Kagawa excelling at #10 and say 'why didn't Fergie do that?' are they?
 
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