A Spanish midfielder is wanted because in general they are really good there.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter Bebe
- Start date
- Status
Also, it's not just a Spanish midfielder but it is Thiago and Fabregas. One of them was probably the best midfielder in England 2 years ago, while the other is one of the best young midfielders in the world (if not the best). It's not that we want Natxo Insa, but we are talking about Thiago and Fabrgas.
How many Spanish central midfielders are plying their trade in the English league? How many for the big clubs?
Besides the Barcelona guys and Alonso at Madrid, who are other awe inspiring Spanish central midfielders?
Besides the Barcelona guys and Alonso at Madrid, who are other awe inspiring Spanish central midfielders?
Well said. It's not like everyone here wouldn't take Wilshere in a flash too if we could get him, or Gundogan. We want an excellent midfielder, and it just happens that lots of them are Spanish.
Who are the lot?
I know the 2nd half of his season really wasn't great but I think that's clouding the judgement of some people. He's a late starter but he's gunna be a quality player and an important player for Man Utd in the future.
Or may be he was the best available to suit their needs. I am not sure that being Spanish was the first criteria.
I don't deny that there are a good few Spanish central midfielders, however the hype and the 'need' to have one in your team is overstated. Barcelona has an abundance of them, the rest of the league..meh..
Overstated by you. No-one else is saying that them being Spanish is the desirable factor. The fact is that top teams want top players, and at the moment a lot of the top midfielders are Spanish.
@Cina
I said how many are plying trade in the English league? And how many for the top clubs?
Read it again.
Young central midfield talent? Who are those guys?
I am asking simple questions. You are the one into the business of proving points, it seems.
I said how many are plying trade in the English league? And how many for the top clubs?
Read it again.
Young central midfield talent? Who are those guys?
I am asking simple questions. You are the one into the business of proving points, it seems.
Um, I already had. I tend to when joining in a debate. Do you have any actual rebuttal?
Top Spanish midfielder, not counting the Barca trio and Alonso? (I don't feel like you can discount Fabregas, since the Caf's 'interest' in Thiago and Fabregas is the reason you started the whole 'Spanish hype' argument in the first place.) So:
Fabregas
Thiago
Martinez
Mata
Silva
Cazorla
Illarramendi
Canales
Herrera
Any of those would improve our midfield. And that's excluding arguably still the three best midfielders in the world (or three of the best five, certainly), and Alonso, who even despite a poor season would probably get into any team in the world except Barca or Bayern.
I really dont see what the issue is here. There are lot of talented midfielders out there but a good number of them happen to be spanish.
It really is that simple
It's not the desire to have a Spanish midfielder; it's the fact that there's an abudance of top quality midfielders at the moment who are Spanish and play in a central midfield role we could do with strengthening, and despite Cleverley being a decent talent, a lot of them are in a different league to him.
To be fair he said central midfielders. Mata, Silva, Cazorla and Canales are not Cm's. Herrera has come of a very average season and Illarramendi isn't better than Cleverley right now.
Since when has Clevs been more of a cm than Mata or Silva? Clevs played out wide and as an AM when he first broke through, and he has hardly looked world class alongside Carrick when he has played there.
However had Cazorla, Mata or Silva played alongside Carrick in our sparsely populated central area i doubt they would have fared much better than Clevs did. All of which suggests to me those players are all more effective at the head of a 3, with 2 midfielders of a more defensive nature behind them. So i don't really see the distinction between these players and cleverley that you seem to believe there is.
If thiago is better defensively than the likes of clevs, Mata, Silva etc would be, then great, because i think that should be our first consideration. We already have great attacking talent going forward but are far too open in midfield because only Carrick has any defensive nous in there. A Modric or a thiago would certainly help that aspect, as well as being an improvement on cleverley or Ando when we have possession in my view.
Cleverley is more of a CM than the one's you mentioned. That's blatantly clear.
So Cleverley's fault is that he's not world class? He dropped off massively after the Madrid game but till that point I'd say he had a good season. Thiago is obviously an improvement and I'd welcome him but most of the others aren't even CM's
Why is it blatantly clear? Simply because SAF chose to play him there?
In our system he couldn't play as an AM and SAF had other options on the wing, but that still doesn't make him a cm. He is no more a cm than Park was. Park was an AM or a wide player, same as Cleverley. He could still do a job in cm because he worked hard and was adequate at most things. Same as Cleverley. Had we bought Cazorla or Mata i suggest we would likely have played them as with Giggs, alongside Carrick in the centre. Would that then mean Cazorla or Mata would be considered more of a CM than Mata?
Jack Wilshire is a CM, that to me is blatantly clear. toure is a cm. Cleverley has hardly played as a cm for anyone at any level. For U21's he was played out wide, same at Wigan. He started off out wide for us in his early years, and only in the past 2 years has SAF sought to use him next to Carrick. He has had some good games there but in my view it's no more his best position than it would be Mata's or Silva's.
you may not agree and that's fine, but i just can't see the distinctions that you clearly do akash02.
Agreed, Cleverley is more of a CM than Silva or Cazorla. I probably shouldn't have included them, except that I thought Shinjisan was asking for midfielders, not just central midfielders. I stand by Mata, though - he has all the attributes to play as a creative CM, that's just not how Chelsea use him.
Why is it blatantly clear? Simply because SAF chose to play him there?
In our system he couldn't play as an AM and SAF had other options on the wing, but that still doesn't make him a cm. He is no more a cm than Park was. Park was an AM or a wide player, same as Cleverley. He could still do a job in cm because he worked hard and was adequate at most things. Same as Cleverley. Had we bought Cazorla or Mata i suggest we would likely have played them as with Giggs, alongside Carrick in the centre. Would that then mean Cazorla or Mata would be considered more of a CM than Mata?
Cleverly is a CM. When has he ever played as an AM at all? When we went on loan to Watford he either played as a CM or out wide, same for Wigan. I have never seen Cleverly as an AM.
The bit in bold is ridiculous. Exaggeration at it's very worst
Mata is a CM in the same way Giggs is. And I am not a fan of Giggs as a CM
I'd say clevs more suited to a deeper role than silva/carzola/mata but I think Clev's problem is that he's neither a traditional central midfield player nor an attacking midfielder, he's sort of a mix. He likes to move with the attack making himself available for quick short passes but unfortunately too often that leads him to vacating his central role and putting a lot of pressure on his partner and at times can congest areas of the pitch. Defensively I think he can be a little suspect as well positionally, although I guess that will improve with time. In a more forward role, wide or central though whilst his movement is generally good, he doesn't have the cutting edge to his game to play there at a high level. He's not got the passing ability nor the dribbling ability to do it for a top team.
That said watching some games from over the season, particularly the first half shows that Clev is a good player. Against weaker teams his movement and quick recycling of the ball is good and tbf in some of the tougher games he did play, when he was tied to a more disciplined role again his quick use of the ball helped us to deal with pressure well, particularly given we're usually outnumbered centrally.
I have my doubts about him as a part of the first 11 for the reasons I first mentioned, but I think he's still a useful player with the potential to surprise depending on how he refines his game. I'd hope we get some competition for him though in the summer.
That said watching some games from over the season, particularly the first half shows that Clev is a good player. Against weaker teams his movement and quick recycling of the ball is good and tbf in some of the tougher games he did play, when he was tied to a more disciplined role again his quick use of the ball helped us to deal with pressure well, particularly given we're usually outnumbered centrally.
I have my doubts about him as a part of the first 11 for the reasons I first mentioned, but I think he's still a useful player with the potential to surprise depending on how he refines his game. I'd hope we get some competition for him though in the summer.
Nor am I, but he's not.
You hadn't. If you did, you would have noticed some post mention the desire to get a Spainish central midfielder.
Akash covered most I would have replied in my post. Thanks to him.
More than half the players you mention on the list are not central midfielders or are not quality enough to play in our midfield. First thing to understand here is that we never played a strict 4-2-3-1 under Sir Alex, so players like Martinez, Alonso or Busquets don't make sense for us as we already have Carrick, who plays as the deepest midfielder. In order to compliment Carrick the ideal player would be a dynamic midfielder, who can run up and down the pitch, or someone with good short and long passing skills to make a difference playing further ahead.
Carzola, Mata, Silva, Canales? You are smart poster Brightonian. I am shocked that you mentioned those guys as options for our central midfield. You push them into central position and they would be half as effective as you would take away their creativity.
IMO, the good Spanish central midfielders, who can improve us are Xavi (ungettbale), Fabregas (really tough to sign) & Thiago (I think we have a bright chance to secure his signature).
I mentioned the word overstated in the post above as I think there are more CM's outside Spain that suit us. Modric, Vidal, Marchisio, Gundogan, Schweinsteiger, Lars Bender, Wilshere, Cabaye etc. are some who would be more useful than except two or three players on your illustrious list.
Some pretty major shifting of the goalposts there. Your original post, as you'll see, asks about good Spanish central midfielders. It says nothing about whether or not they would fit into our side.
That's a lovely list of midfielders you've compiled there. You'll note that apart from three Germans, they're all different nationalities. Whereas even if you arbitrarily rule out chunks of my list of Spaniards (why can't I include Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Alonso but you can include Vidal, Schweinsteiger, Wilshere? They're equally unavailable...) then I still comfortably have 5. If you don't arbitrarily rule out loads of midfielders, allowing me to include, let's say, Xavi, Busquets and Alonso, then I have even more than that.
Which seems to pretty conclusively prove my point, that there are a lot of great Spanish midfielders out there, perhaps more than there are any other nationality.
If you wanted to ask a different question, about midfielders that would specifically suit United, you should have asked it.
Martinez wouldn't improve us? Heh!
Yet 70% in the list weren't central midfielders.
I really don't care about nationalities, neither should anyone. Glad you have more Spanish midfielders in your kitty. I quiet like your tactic to reveal them one by one, instead of in one post.
You did not include Busquets, Alonso and Iniesta (not a typical central midfielder). You listed some players, who aren't even central midfielders to prove something, that I am still at a sea about.
Great? Xavi is great. Busquets, Fabregas and Alonso are excellent. Rest are young and have a lot to prove.
Only if we were planning to put Carrick on the bench. Martinez is a defensive holding midfielder and we already have one, a pretty good one.
Or it may require major shift in tactics, where we play two DM's.
Not so crazy.
Then how does Bayern play both him and Schweni? Schweni is a playmaking CM similar to Carrick too.
Good players will adjust and learn to play with each other.
Silly boy.
Except Schweni is not. He is a box to box player, active on both offensive and defensive ends.
Martinez would have been perfect for us. If we are going to play with 2 in midfield, both of them needs to be good at defending. And while Martinez is a defensive midfielder, he is very good at playing football, you know passing. I think that Bayern are doing well with Martinez-Schweinsteiger partnershio, and Schweinsteiger has played this year in the same position as Carrick for us.
I am sorry Cina, but they are.
It may have been amazing but Sir Alex would never play that way regularly. Since Carrick, barring a few games, we have always played a midfielder with offensive capabilities next to him. Fletcher, Anderson, Scholes, Giggs, Cleverley...
Jones at Madrid or WHL was used when we decided to shut shop and play solely on the counter.
Fletcher doesn't have that much offensive capabilities. SAF has used before Butt and Keano, the team tactics are depended on the quality of the players.
And I agree with Cina that both Martinez and Carrick are much more than holding midfielders.
He's a good player who in time will develop into an even better one. His strengths are quite obvious I think. He keeps the ball well, keeps things ticking over and brings others into the game. He doesn't over complicate things but what he does is effective. Very neat and tidy when he's in possession, and as I say, his positional play in an attacking sense is good. He's always available for a pass and he has a confidence and a belief in himself. That said, there are areas in which he can (and needs) to improve in. Defensively he is often found out if position and when you play against those 'better' players in and around the midfield area, they will punish you for that. He is only young though, and he suffers from similar problems that young midfield players generally suffer from. I don't think he has the creativity you need to play in an advanced position, and that's his problem. You can't play in a deeper role if you can't position yourselfelf defensively, and it's up to Clevs and the players around him to develop that understanding and communication.
The majority of sides set up to out number United in midfield, and he is capable of countering that. He recycles well and he knows where the space is, and he seems to be one of those players who you want to play with. He's always available, always in space, and you need someone like that from an attacking point of view. As I said, he is only young and he will improve with experience.
The majority of sides set up to out number United in midfield, and he is capable of countering that. He recycles well and he knows where the space is, and he seems to be one of those players who you want to play with. He's always available, always in space, and you need someone like that from an attacking point of view. As I said, he is only young and he will improve with experience.
We can go into the semantics of the whole thing but that is their primary job. They read the game and intercept rather than go for hard tackles. Their job is to protect the back four and make simple passes to the offensive players. Or a long pass when the chance arises. How many times does both of them join the attack?
Fletcher was a box to box player, who did the job on both sides of the field. He run back to defend, while he joined the offensive players in attack.
One man midfield? That is highly demeaning to our other midfielders. Cleverley did an excellent job before February, when his form dipped and he disappeared. Giggs had a good few games in the middle. Anderson did well in the cup games. Carrick made more risky passes and helped offensively this season, that doesn't make mean that he was playing a box to box or an attacking role.
Scholes, when younger, joined the attack and never only stayed back. He played this new role, when his legs went. Scholes could also ping 70 yard passes with pin point accuracy, nearly ever time.
Martinez and Carrick may or may not have formed a good partnership. I don't think it would have happened under Sir Alex, who would liked playing with a more attacking player besides Carrick.
Thank god we won the title then with that shit midfield.
I don't get this idea of getting another more defensive player and changing Carrick's role. In a way you are saying that Martinez is better than Carrick and the onus is on Carrick to excel in a role that he hasn't played for years. Why not just get a more creative player and let Carrick do what he is best at?
We're not gonna sign feckin Martinez so why bring him up.
So Carrick somehow mysteriously forgot his playmaking abilities through his time as a Spurs player and circa 2006-2008?
Shinjisan, does the fact that literally everyone else in the thread is disagreeing with you not tell you something?
I'm going to have one more go, then I'm giving up. You asked for top Spanish midfielders. I will eliminate everyone who could possibly be seen as anything other than a CM from my list, giving you this:
Xavi
Busquets
Alonso
Thiago
Fabregas
Martinez
Illarramendi
Herrera
You attempted to argue that there are not that many great Spanish midfielders by listing a number of midfielders of other nationalities. I've listed them below, with their nationalities.
Modric - Croatian
Vidal - Chilean
Marchisio - Italian
Gundogan - German
Schweinsteiger - German
Bender - German
Wilshere - English
Cabaye - French
As you can, see, there are three Germans there, and the rest are all of different nationalities. Now, I reckon you could probably compile a list of young German midfielders that would come close to the Spanish list above. But no other nation could get close. Do you think it's fair to say, in response to your original point (half a decade ago) that there are lots of great Spanish midfielders, and that this, not some neanderthal desire to have some hispanic names on the team-sheet, is the reason why lots of clubs and fans want Spanish midfielders at the moment?
I'm going to have one more go, then I'm giving up. You asked for top Spanish midfielders. I will eliminate everyone who could possibly be seen as anything other than a CM from my list, giving you this:
Xavi
Busquets
Alonso
Thiago
Fabregas
Martinez
Illarramendi
Herrera
You attempted to argue that there are not that many great Spanish midfielders by listing a number of midfielders of other nationalities. I've listed them below, with their nationalities.
Modric - Croatian
Vidal - Chilean
Marchisio - Italian
Gundogan - German
Schweinsteiger - German
Bender - German
Wilshere - English
Cabaye - French
As you can, see, there are three Germans there, and the rest are all of different nationalities. Now, I reckon you could probably compile a list of young German midfielders that would come close to the Spanish list above. But no other nation could get close. Do you think it's fair to say, in response to your original point (half a decade ago) that there are lots of great Spanish midfielders, and that this, not some neanderthal desire to have some hispanic names on the team-sheet, is the reason why lots of clubs and fans want Spanish midfielders at the moment?
- Status