Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

[Liam147]

I think when you encounter a player who is fearful of making a risky pass which might end up being sensational, you're probably looking at someone who isn't cut out for the very top level. Not always the case, but I feel that's generally true.

Cleverley, as far as I can tell, keeps it simple and is relatively tidy in possession. You'll rarely look back at a game and think it was him who cost you it. Equally, I don't think you'd often say that his performance was the game swinger.

I fully imagine he'll be worked on to become the new Fletcher - solid squad player.

I think the first paragraph is harsh, the second one dead on, and the third one - time will tell.

I dare say it's a very English trait to underestimate ball retention (national team, anyone?), whereas in Spain it's pivotal. If you've got the ball, your opponents are chasing it. And his movement makes that all the more difficult.

Have you ever played five a side or a full game with someone you're supposed to be marking who never stops moving? It's knackering and demoralising.

He's shown he's got the ability for key passes (one game at OT springs to mind when I think he volleyed or half-volleyed one first time coming across him out to the left (might have been Rooney on the end of it). Terrific ball. I also think back to the Community Shield goal we scored where he was instrumental. Unbelievable goal. Really was like watching Barca at their best. The pass and move was amazing.

At the same time I understand those who don't want him as our first choice partner to Carrick. Most midfields at the top clubs have better than Cleverley; shouldn't we? But I don't like the people knocking him; it's all very undeserved as far as I see. He's a very intelligent footballer, who has plenty of room for development, as there's no reason why he can't become one of the league's top midfielders.

 

[Steven Seagull]

The problems with his 1-2's just outside their box is that in a 4-2-3-1 the CM should not really be that far up.

What the feck are you going on about now?

 

[Godfather]

I'm pretty sure it's pronounced Nev-ay-ah

Maybe he's giving credit to his beloved body lotion by naming his son after it.
If so, that's not the way to spell it Tom

 

[Stobzilla]

Nevaeh.

Nev-ay-ah

Heaven spelt backwards essentially, nice thought on the surface but backwards heaven is surely just Hell ?

Didn't think it through.

 

[JaffyJoe]

He's still finding his feet at this level I like his effort but I think he is an average player and while he should still improve I see him being a squad player in a top midfield.

 

[Antisocial]

I know. People are trying to outdo each other these days with stunningly original baby names. Despicable, I says. Won't somebody think of the children? Seriously.

TBF Despicable would be a great name for child.

But yeah I agree I feel sorry for kids being lumbered with "original" names - it was bad enough for me growing-up in England with a foreign name that only 300,000 people worldwide could pronounce, but at least I could be confident my parents hadn't basically decided to sabotage my life right from my first breath.

 

[Isotope]

He's still finding his feet at this level I like his effort but I think he is an average player and while he should still improve I see him being a squad player in a top midfield.

How's so? given by his exponential improvement over the last couple years, I'd say he'll be an important player for United and his country. He seems like a lad who's taking his football career seriously (not like *cough Anderson cough*), and his partnership with Carrick on big games last season was very encouraging for such a young midfielder.

 

[Shark]

He's still finding his feet at this level I like his effort but I think he is an average player and while he should still improve I see him being a squad player in a top midfield.

That's a pretty wild thing to say, seeing as he was first choice alongside Carrick for the early stages of last season and performed great in some big games. You could say that he needs to improve his fitness levels and consistency, but there's no doubt that he's good enough to play at this level and at his best he's quite a good player IMO. Definitely not Average.

 

[JaffyJoe]

That's a pretty wild thing to say, seeing as he was first choice alongside Carrick for the early stages of last season and performed great in some big games. You could say that he needs to improve his fitness levels and consistency, but there's no doubt that he's good enough to play at this level and at his best he's quite a good player IMO. Definitely not Average.

As in he is not the finished article. If you think he missed ALL those games because of stamina then he wouldn't be a pro. He was not good enough. Fergie would rather play Giggs etc. How many players have been the finished article their first year at the highest level? I would say he is still finding his feet and improving. He's average for me doesn't really do anything particularly well just okay at everything . There is a reason he was not playing.

 

[JaffyJoe]

How's so? given by his exponential improvement over the last couple years, I'd say he'll be an important player for United and his country. He seems like a lad who's taking his football career seriously (not like *cough Anderson cough*), and his partnership with Carrick on big games last season was very encouraging for such a young midfielder.

He's almost 24 now. I just don't think he is particularly impressive. He may prove me wrong as he has started at this level so late but I don't see it currently.

 

[Isotope]

He's almost 24 now. I just don't think he is particularly impressive. He may prove me wrong as he has started at this level so late but I don't see it currently.

I always think that if they are midfielder that is
- comfortable with the ball
- always make himself available for the pass
- can pass well
- good at finding space
they are into (at least) a very good level, bar major injury or loss of determination. And Cleverley ticks all the right boxes. I'm pretty excited about him, to be honest; just like after I saw the first season of Carrick with us.

 

[JaffyJoe]

I always think that if they are midfielder that is
- comfortable with the ball
- always make himself available for the pass
- can pass well
- good at finding space
they are into (at least) a very good level, bar major injury or loss of determination. And Cleverley ticks all the right boxes. I'm pretty excited about him, to be honest; just like after I saw the first season of Carrick with us.

For me he is decent at everything while not quite excelling. He does not really do anything well. What is his main skill? He will be a squad player on a good team maybe if he was a few years younger but at his age i'm not impressed. He may be a late bloomer but calling Cleverley very good is overrating him.

 

[Isotope]

I didn't mean to say he is at 'very good' level yet; but more 'into' or 'on his way to' that level. He's definitely still trying to find his feet now.

 

[Shinjisan]

Tom's stock seriously went down after the game against Real. Unfortunately for him, his worst performances are etched in most people's mind now and they have forgotten how he started the season. He was having a very good season until the Madrid game. Started most of our tough games away from home and come up with commendable performances. His England/GB appearances were also widely lauded.

His problem is that he is a relatively late bloomer and people expect him to be a finished article at almost 24. It is easy to forget that this was his first full season at United, after featuring at an International tournament in the summer. His stamina and ability to control games will improve with time. More game time and confidence will also allow him to be a more adventurous player.Sir Alex did the right thing not playing him once his performances and fitness started dropping. We do not want him to go the Michael Owen way or towards the path Wilshere is heading if Wenger doesn't invest in Arsenal's midfield.

If fans stop looking at him through the Jack Wilshere(The English midfield hope) prism, they'll realize that we have a very good English player on our hands.

 

[Dargonk]

He is a good player, but unfortunately for him he is the type of player that when playing well doesn't immediately stand out due to his simply pass and move style, compared to flair players or those that physically enforce themselves on the game. It means that it takes a long time of consistently playing well for people to recognise him, yet only a couple of bad performances for people to forget about the good work that he has been doing.

While he is far from the finished article right now, with plenty of things that he needs to work on/improve to warrant starting every game for us, I can see him taking the fletcher/carrick career route if he continues to improve, where it takes a long time for fans to fully appreciate what they bring to the team.

 

[Nighteyes]

Tom's stock seriously went down after the game against Real. Unfortunately for him, his worst performances are etched in most people's mind now and they have forgotten how he started the season. He was having a very good season until the Madrid game. Started most of our tough games away from home and come up with commendable performances. His England/GB appearances were also widely lauded.

His problem is that he is a relatively late bloomer and people expect him to be a finished article at almost 24. It is easy to forget that this was his first full season at United, after featuring at an International tournament in the summer. His stamina and ability to control games will improve with time. More game time and confidence will also allow him to be a more adventurous player.Sir Alex did the right thing not playing him once his performances and fitness started dropping. We do not want him to go the Michael Owen way or towards the path Wilshere is heading if Wenger doesn't invest in Arsenal's midfield.

If fans stop looking at him through the Jack Wilshere(The English midfield hope) prism, they'll realize that we have a very good English player on our hands.

wtf? I thought he was very good against Real. His poorer performances of the season came after the Madrid game (and you could say the same for the team in the general). The Chelsea game immediately after was perhaps his worst

 

[LR7]

For me he is decent at everything while not quite excelling. He does not really do anything well. What is his main skill? He will be a squad player on a good team maybe if he was a few years younger but at his age i'm not impressed. He may be a late bloomer but calling Cleverley very good is overrating him.

That is a massive exaggeration JaffyJoe. You're harping on about people overrating him but in reality you're grossly underrating Cleverley here. To say he doesn't do anything well is ridiculous. His movement into space, one and two touch passing, link-up play (particularly with Kagawa, Welbeck and Rooney), tempo and positioning when we are in possession are all things that he does very well.

In my opinion there are three main areas he needs to improve:

• Shooting - which has been erratic at times but he arrives at the edge of the box at the correct times its just that the shot is almost always guaranteed to go into row z.
  
• Penetration in the final third - he needs to attempt the risky pass a little more rather than the safe pass that keeps possession.
  
  
• Positioning when we lose possession - sometimes he just ends up running tirelessly after the ball when he could avoid it with better positioning.

These are all things that we can see an improvement on in the coming season and I hope we do, but the stamina thing is hardly exclusive to Cleverley alone and as he plays more and more games I'm sure he will get used to it. Almost all of his previous seasons playing first team football have been curtailed by injuries, so it's a step-up playing so many games at the highest level in a number of different competitions for Manchester United. He plays with high energy, always buzzing around into space so it's no wonder he tires slightly, but he makes Carrick's job easier as he almost always makes himself available as an option. I hear nobody bemoaning Kagawa's stamina when he was subbed off in all but four games for us this season, playing a full game just one or two times more than Anderson. Ozil is a similar story for Madrid. It's difficult to maintain that high intensity for 90 mins but he did plenty of times and I'm sure experience will help him next season.

I look forward to Cleverley continuing to develop. He isn't the finished article yet, but players develop at different rates and I don't think its fair to write him off as nothing but average at this stage of his career.

 

[JaffyJoe]

That is a massive exaggeration JaffyJoe. You're harping on about people overrating him but in reality you're grossly underrating Cleverley here. To say he doesn't do anything well is ridiculous. His movement into space, one and two touch passing, link-up play (particularly with Kagawa, Welbeck and Rooney), tempo and positioning when we are in possession are all things that he does very well.

In my opinion there are three main areas he needs to improve:

• Shooting - which has been erratic at times but he arrives at the edge of the box at the correct times its just that the shot is almost always guaranteed to go into row z.
• Penetration in the final third - he needs to attempt the risky pass a little more rather than the safe pass that keeps possession.
  
• Positioning when we lose possession - sometimes he just ends up running tirelessly after the ball when he could avoid it with better positioning.

These are all things that we can see an improvement on in the coming season and I hope we do, but the stamina thing is hardly exclusive to Cleverley alone and as he plays more and more games I'm sure he will get used to it. Almost all of his previous seasons playing first team football have been curtailed by injuries, so it's a step-up playing so many games at the highest level in a number of different competitions for Manchester United. He plays with high energy, always buzzing around into space so it's no wonder he tires slightly, but he makes Carrick's job easier as he almost always makes himself available as an option. I hear nobody bemoaning Kagawa's stamina when he was subbed off in all but four games for us this season, playing a full game just one or two times more than Anderson. Ozil is a similar story for Madrid. It's difficult to maintain that high intensity for 90 mins but he did plenty of times and I'm sure experience will help him next season.


I look forward to Cleverley continuing to develop. He isn't the finished article yet, but players develop at different rates and I don't think its fair to write him off as nothing but average at this stage of his career.

When I say he does nothing well i'm not saying he is poor at things but that he is a jack of all trades type doesn't really do any well i'm still not really sure what his main skill is. For Wilshere it is his ability to run and beat players, Veratti his passing and ball retention, Pogba his composure, long shot and physical presence etc etc with these young players with Cleverely it is his? These are all players who are younger and better than cleverley I would not call any of them very good yet I would say they are good but they have higher ceilings than him. He is not a great passer or dribbler and while he finds space he doesn't do much with it he does all these things at a solid level. For a box to box midfielder he doesn't have enough about him to ever really be a great player. Like I said I may be wrong and he is just a late developer but he is not somebody who I watch and get excited about. There is a reason he was not playing come the end of the season. He is ok good squad player but he is not the future of this teams midfield.

No one will bemoan Ozil or Kagawa because they are better players and offer more than Cleverley on the pitch. Games pass Cleverley by too often. He has been playing first team football for 5 years now thogh not at this level, do you really believe he stopped playing because he was tired? Personally I doubt it. I haven't even really commented on his stamina because that is not so worrying i'm simply commenting on what I see. He is a ok player does a lot of things decently but squad player is his ceiling. He's almost 24 how much time does he need? He may prove me wrong but that would mean a big improvement in the space of a season or two. He is just a bit meh he doesn't have that x-factor for me.

 

[Rozay]

I agree with everything Jaffy said personally. I don't see a top class player there. He's 24(ish) now, and for a team of our level, is no better than decent I'd say. I don't see much difference between him and Henderson, for example, and a top team could certainly do better for a regular first XI central midfielder. I doubt he has the natural ability to ever become a permanent fixture in our XI, unless he becomes a more defensive midfielder, in which case he has more than enough natural ability to play there if he could learn the other bits of course.

 

[Comsmit]

If the club invests in true midfield quality this summer, next season is massive for Cleverley. Personally I feel more competition will be good for his development. It will either motivate him to up his effort and improve his game, or stall and accept his limitations, sinking into mediocrity as Anderson has.

You only have to look at Jonny Evans to see the difference direct competition can have on a player's determination and commitment to self-improvement. Since Smalling and Jones came in he has stepped up his game to a new level and flourished. He is well on the way to fullfilling the potential he clearly has. Good on him.

Tom has no true competition for a place in the engine room. Anderson is injury prone and erratic, Fletcher is suffering a career-threatening illness, Giggs is 38 and not an orthodox central midfielder, Scholes has gone, Jones isn't a natural in that position and Powell is inexperienced. More competition from excellent, consistent midfielders will make sure he strives hard to improve if he wants a first team place now and in the future.

 

[Pexbo]

I can't believe how many people are knocking him. Next to Carrick he was fantastic in a midfield two for the middle of the season. A large portion of the season at that. It's his first full season at United and he made 41 appearances for club and country. It's hard work playing at that level and after his run of injuries it's going to take him a season or two to get the stamina and hardiness to play week in week out from August to May.

 

[Shimo]

If the club invests in true midfield quality this summer, next season is massive for Cleverley. Personally I feel more competition will be good for his development. It will either motivate him to up his effort and improve his game, or stall and accept his limitations, sinking into mediocrity as Anderson has.

You only have to look at Jonny Evans to see the difference direct competition can have on a player's determination and commitment to self-improvement. Since Smalling and Jones came in he has stepped up his game to a new level and flourished. He is well on the way to fullfilling the potential he clearly has. Good on him.

Tom has no true competition for a place in the engine room. Anderson is injury prone and erratic, Fletcher is suffering a career-threatening illness, Giggs is 38 and not an orthodox central midfielder, Scholes has gone, Jones isn't a natural in that position and Powell is inexperienced. More competition from excellent, consistent midfielders will make sure he strives hard to improve if he wants a first team place now and in the future.

I certainly hope what you say is true. Although, once he stopped getting minutes towards the latter part of the season, against supposedly less quality players one would hope that instinct to improve and get better would have kicked in right then. The end of the season was quite perplexing in the way Fergie finished it. He could have just changed the formations up just to get players like Cleverley more experience for next season but, he continued to play Valencia and even brought Ando and Scholes on in CM. Just makes me wonder why Fergie didn't want to play him at the end even for a bit.

 

[VeevaVee]

I can't remember if I've mentioned it but I saw Tom out in Ibiza on my first day here. He was with a load of mates getting rowdy in a bar. Plenty of United songs being sung by them and we joined in with a few.

I clocked him and asked my mate for a second opinion, some guy who must have been his 'bodyguard' came over and said 'yes it is who you think it is, but please don't go over'. I asked if I could go and shake his hand at least and he said no. So anyway, said bodyguard went out on his phone and I took my chance. Turns out he's dead sound and had no issues having a pic

 

[gza the genius]

I can't believe how many people are knocking him. Next to Carrick he was fantastic in a midfield two for the middle of the season. A large portion of the season at that. It's his first full season at United and he made 41 appearances for club and country. It's hard work playing at that level and after his run of injuries it's going to take him a season or two to get the stamina and hardiness to play week in week out from August to May.

I agree with this completely. It's strange to me that a lot of people are seemingly writing him off as not good enough already. Yeah he did tail off at the end of the season but with him and Carrick in a midfield two we played the best football we did all season. When Cleverley finally started getting games we immediately moved out of the zombie football. He may not be ready to be a regular every game yet but I think he'll eventually get there with more experience.

 

[Brightonian]

I can't believe how many people are knocking him. Next to Carrick he was fantastic in a midfield two for the middle of the season. A large portion of the season at that. It's his first full season at United and he made 41 appearances for club and country. It's hard work playing at that level and after his run of injuries it's going to take him a season or two to get the stamina and hardiness to play week in week out from August to May.

This is an excellent post. I'm quite caught up in the Thiago excitement, but I'm still a huge fan of Cleverley. I think if we don't buy a replacement for him and he gets a run in the side, people will be hugely surprised at how much better he is under Moyes than Fergie. I know it's heresy to suggest that Fergie did less than bring out the very best in any player, but I simply don't think his approach to central midfield and its importance to the game ever did Cleverley any favours. His eagerness to see players like Jones in midfield says a lot on that front. Hell, it took Cleverley more than two months to finally get the run he deserved ahead of a struggling Giggs and Scholes last season.

Moyes, on the other hand, loves a Cleverley-type player. Osman is a good example. Players with good ball retention, intelligence, movement and tempo - not necessarily the gritty, physical sort or the hollywood 'moments of genius' type, but more useful in actually getting the team to play good quality football.

 

[Platato]

I think Thiago coming would get a lot out of Cleverley. A player who appreciates space and loves playing the quick one-two pass. In alot of the games Cleverley played in this past season, our setup was very expansive so he would have to a lot of unnecessary running just to try and play short, quick passing with his teammates. In some sense, it undid his good work as he would fade towards the end of the game. It also corresponded to his lack of experience but there was a noticeable drop anytime he seemed a bit winded. With players closer to him such as Thiago and Kagawa, I think it will bring more out of Cleverley's game. We know he's got a great football brain but only for a few games did we really take advantage of Tom's speed of thought. A quality which some United fans seem to underrate with Tom.

 

[Liam147]

For me he is decent at everything while not quite excelling. He does not really do anything well. What is his main skill? He will be a squad player on a good team maybe if he was a few years younger but at his age i'm not impressed. He may be a late bloomer but calling Cleverley very good is overrating him.

It's so naive to say something like this. Do you play FM/Fifa by any chance? Whilst his passing, movement etc. might only be rated 15/16, it's his whole package and how well he fits into our play which is his 'main skill'. It's interesting how his England performances have been below par, because he's not the ost physical player. Same could be said of Carrick. England underutilise the midfield whereas United, if anything, overutilise it. Everything runs through the midfield (except when Rio tries to imitate Scholesy).

Try remember what our game was like with Scholes and Carrick in midfield. The opposition's attack would break down, it'd come out to Scholesy or Carrick, and we'd wait for everyone to get forward, and them to get back before doing anything with it. Cleverley comes in and it's a rapid turnaround from defence to attack. As Plato said, he's relentless moving into space to look for the ball to go forwards. That didn't happen with Scholes.

He's gone from being our most overrated player to our most underrated in a year; it's quite staggering.

I can't believe how many people are knocking him. Next to Carrick he was fantastic in a midfield two for the middle of the season. A large portion of the season at that. It's his first full season at United and he made 41 appearances for club and country. It's hard work playing at that level and after his run of injuries it's going to take him a season or two to get the stamina and hardiness to play week in week out from August to May.

Good point. Strange that no one suggested he might just have been a bit burnt out when he wasn't playing from Feb/March, although it's a tad concerning that he'd burn out so early.

I think Thiago coming would get a lot out of Cleverley. A player who appreciates space and loves playing the quick one-two pass. In alot of the games Cleverley played in this past season, our setup was very expansive so he would have to a lot of unnecessary running just to try and play short, quick passing with his teammates. In some sense, it undid his good work as he would fade towards the end of the game. It also corresponded to his lack of experience but there was a noticeable drop anytime he seemed a bit winded. With players closer to him such as Thiago and Kagawa, I think it will bring more out of Cleverley's game. We know he's got a great football brain but only for a few games did we really take advantage of Tom's speed of thought. A quality which some United fans seem to underrate with Tom.

Also a good point. It's nice to know there's still a handful of United fans who haven't written him off.

 

[Varun]

Very few have written him off. Its the usual overrate-->Underrate-->Overrate cycle atm.

 

[Brightonian]

He's gone from being our most overrated player to our most underrated in a year; it's quite staggering.

It's always how it goes on here. The Caf corrects itself, everyone jumps on the bandwagon, the correction goes way too far in the other direction, and before long he's gone from 'the new Scholes' to 'the new Gibson'.

EDIT: Varun said it better and in fewer words, basically.

 

[Liam147]

Very few have written him off. Its the usual overrate-->Underrate-->Overrate cycle atm.

I'm seeing more and more United fans (although that's not exclusive to this forum) who are putting him down as 'will never be more than a squad player'. We said this of Fletcher, and Cleverley's far more promising than Fletcher was IMO.

 

[Varun]

I'm seeing more and more United fans (although that's not exclusive to this forum) who are putting him down as 'will never be more than a squad player'. We said this of Fletcher, and Cleverley's far more promising than Fletcher was IMO.

They're the same ones who'l herald him the solution to all our midfield problems next season once he starts putting in good performances. People tend to deal in extremes when it comes to young players forgetting not everyone matures at the same rate specially not someone like Clev who hasnt been involved at this level in a big team for too long.

 

[JaffyJoe]

It's so naive to say something like this. Do you play FM/Fifa by any chance? Whilst his passing, movement etc. might only be rated 15/16, it's his whole package and how well he fits into our play which is his 'main skill'. It's interesting how his England performances have been below par, because he's not the ost physical player. Same could be said of Carrick. England underutilise the midfield whereas United, if anything, overutilise it. Everything runs through the midfield (except when Rio tries to imitate Scholesy).

Try remember what our game was like with Scholes and Carrick in midfield. The opposition's attack would break down, it'd come out to Scholesy or Carrick, and we'd wait for everyone to get forward, and them to get back before doing anything with it. Cleverley comes in and it's a rapid turnaround from defence to attack. As Plato said, he's relentless moving into space to look for the ball to go forwards. That didn't happen with Scholes.

He's gone from being our most overrated player to our most underrated in a year; it's quite staggering.

No offence Liam but I would rather not use football manager as my method for judging how good a player is. As good as a job as they do anyone who plays it knows real life is not quite like the game. So basically his main skill is not standing out just being a player who does well when we are playing well and badly when we are playing badly. Our team is screaming out for a quality cm so he has come in at a time where there is little quality competition for the role, he will do better than a Giggs and is more comfortable than Rooney while still not offering as much.

If he was to move to a lower quality he would be found out. When games are not going well for us he is a player whose will just fade and will attempt to do less than he does normally, he keeps things ticking over he never tries too much which means he will not give the ball away as much as a typical English midfielder, but when you need that bit of quality to unlock a game I don't think he possesses it. All the best midfielders have their stand out skills or if they are all rounders possess more to their game than Cleverley does in his that is my observation. Your point in regards to England and Us?? i'm slightly confused there. There is a group of younger midfielders who are better than him and that just says a lot for me they all have a higher ceiling and we can hopefully get a player in that group. Maybe if he was 20/21 my judgement would be less harsh. But like I said for a box to box midifielder he is ok a good squad player he is never going to be top quality.

He is a better fit than with Carrick than a static Scholes because he has more legs he can get about the pitch better that is the ONLY reason. He provides a better balance in the midfield which would be expected because he is younger and can cover more ground. Games pass him by too often for me. He gets on the ball and does not do much with it. Like I said he contributes here and there but a team who want to be the best in Europe will not have Cleverley starting week in week out. He does everything at least ok but in certain areas he lacks.

He has not even played as well this year as he did the beginning of the season in 11/12 those performances with Anderson led more than a few to believe we had a gem, more playing time has shown he is not as good as we first thought. What are his standout performances this season? He tends to blend in alot, with a player like Carrick who is neat and tidy his midfield partner needs to have more to their game than Cleverley. This is his first full year at this level so he may be a late bloomer and I may be proven to be wrong which would be great but i'm not holding my breath.

 

[Platato]

What a strange post. You wrote all that text just to say you could be wrong in the end. Why?

 

[Liam147]

No offence Liam but I would rather not use football manager as my method for judging how good a player is. As good as a job as they do anyone who plays it knows real life is not quite like the game. So basically his main skill is not standing out just being a player who does well when we are playing well and badly when we are playing badly. Our team is screaming out for a quality cm so he has come in at a time where there is little quality competition for the role, he will do better than a Giggs and is more comfortable than Rooney while still not offering as much.

Did you read my post? I was asking if you played it because it seemed naive to suggest a player needs a main skill as opposed to just being an all round good player who fits perfectly into a club's system, which I'd say Cleverley is.

I also believe we need a quality CM. Whilst I think Cleverley has progrssed excellently, his partnership with Carrick wouldn't exactly strike fear into Madrid (as close as we were to getting something), Dortmund, Bayern, Barca etc. but that's not to say Cleverley won't become one of these top CMs. At the very least he's going to be a valuable squad player.

If he was to move to a lower quality he would be found out. When games are not going well for us he is a player whose will just fade and will attempt to do less than he does normally, he keeps things ticking over he never tries too much which means he will not give the ball away as much as a typical English midfielder, but when you need that bit of quality to unlock a game I don't think he possesses it. All the best midfielders have their stand out skills or if they are all rounders possess more to their game than Cleverley does in his that is my observation. Your point in regards to England and Us?? i'm slightly confused there. There is a group of younger midfielders who are better than him and that just says a lot for me they all have a higher ceiling and we can hopefully get a player in that group. Maybe if he was 20/21 my judgement would be less harsh. But like I said for a box to box midifielder he is ok a good squad player he is never going to be top quality.

At the moment I'd agree that his range of passing isn't overly expansive and he tends not to go for the killer ball. But again, who's to say that won't come? I can understand him playing safe while he beds himself in as first choice midfielder at Manchester United.

My point regarding England is that he plays in a poorer team with a poorer style of play, and as a result, he looks poorer. This backs up what I'm saying about him being such a good fit for United. Who are this group of younger midfielders that are better than him by the way? Wilshere is a given. Unless you're including all the midfielders in Europe, in which case I can't aruge; I don't know them all, and the chances are there are better footballers than him who are under 24.

He is a better fit than with Carrick than a static Scholes because he has more legs he can get about the pitch better that is the ONLY reason. He provides a better balance in the midfield which would be expected because he is younger and can cover more ground. Games pass him by too often for me. He gets on the ball and does not do much with it. Like I said he contributes here and there but a team who want to be the best in Europe will not have Cleverley starting week in week out. He does everything at least ok but in certain areas he lacks.

Hm, false. Anderson runs around a lot. You'd happily see him partner Carrick too I assume?

I guess it's the English tendency to underestimate the importance of ball retention. Cleverley's one of the best English players at it. It's not all about being a Gerrard or a Lampard who's going to tonk one 60 yards. Why do you think England struggled so much with two of Europe's best midfielders? Why do you think Gerrard looks much more limited than he once did. No doubt his age is a factor, but I believe the fact that his range of passing has been limited under Rodgers is another.

He has not even played as well this year as he did the beginning of the season in 11/12 those performances with Anderson led more than a few to believe we had a gem, more playing time has shown he is not as good as we first thought. What are his standout performances this season? He tends to blend in alot, with a player like Carrick who is neat and tidy his midfield partner needs to have more to their game than Cleverley. This is his first full year at this level so he may be a late bloomer and I may be proven to be wrong which would be great but i'm not holding my breath.

What were his standout performances last season? His last 30 minutes or so in our first home game against Tottenham were good. Before that I recall him being quite average. He partnered Anderson well, just like he partners Carrick well. But I don't remember many of his standout games. He's not a standout player, he just tends to play well. Didn't people say similar of Irwin? Rarely outstanding, but never rubbish.

 

[JaffyJoe]

Liam hard to reply directly read my post I praised his ball retention it is priceless for an English player. But in a midfield where Carrick is exemplary at that and we need that bit of quality on top of his ball retention skills and he does not possess that. What has Anderson got to do with it? If Anderson could stay fit I would prefer him to Cleverley he is capable of making more things happen Cleverely is happy to do the basics for a box to box midfielder that is not enough. You can be a great all round player but Cleverley is not one of them and players like a Toure who stands out because of his physicality or a Vidal whose energy and stamina is unmatched generally tend to standout physically same with a Viera or Keane. Cleverley does not have these raw physical gifts and his technical skills don't make up for that. Last season Anderson-Cleverley in midfield won their first 6 matches and where dominating until we met City, never very impressive but that was something for fans to look at and say we may have a player. I did not say he was impressive though I was giving a reason to why he was overrated.

That England point for me is exactly his problem he is not good enough. In a poorer team than United he would be found out, here his passive nature is not picked up as much because we win. Cleverley is a player who is good when things are going well and poor when otherwise that is not the makings of a top quality midfielder for me, they make things easier for those around them. Though his Madrid second leg performance springs to mind he did impress me he was neat and tidy but like I side that is what he gives not much more. The group of young midfielders: Gundogan, Thiago, Bender, Veratti, Pogba and Kovacic spring to mind and I may be missing a few. We have a consistent non flashy midfielder in Carrick his partner needs more about him and that is not Cleverley.

Liam from your post you seem to agree with me in regards to his current standing but are just saying well he may come good, I mentioned as a footnote this is his first full season at the highest level so he may be a late bloomer and I would love for him to prove me wrong. From what I have seen he is a squad player on a good team with a strong midfield, you said as much in your comments.

 

[George Owen]

people here just want a spanish midfielder... i hope we get thiago so they can move on and start paying attention to our own players.

I remember 3 or 4 years ago, when talking to my irish/scotish friends (utd fans), they used to say "cARRICK is average, i dont like him"... for me was really hard to understand, like if they watch different games, or maybe like inception, someone put this idea in their head and no matter how good he was, he was always shit to them.

Probably like the big mayority, only since last season, they say: oh yeah, carrick is class, cueck cuekc euccdkdkdk...


like someone already wrote up there, its a cycle... now is Cleverley's turn to be underrated. But in 2 seasons more... haha

 

[Cheesy]

people here just want a spanish midfielder... i hope we get thiago so they can move on and start paying attention to our own players.

I remember 3 or 4 years ago, when talking to my irish/scotish friends (utd fans), they used to say "cARRICK is average, i dont like him"... for me was really hard to understand, like if they watch different games, or maybe like inception, someone put this idea in their head and no matter how good he was, he was always shit to them.

Probably like the big mayority, only since last season, they say: oh yeah, carrick is class, cueck cuekc euccdkdkdk...


like someone already wrote up there, its a cycle... now is Cleverley's turn to be underrated. But in 2 seasons more... haha

But just because Carrick has had a couple of brilliant season that doesn't mean Cleverley is guaranteed to either. I think the boy has some potential to be a good player, but the fact is that he's getting older and it's going to require a massively drastic improvement from him if he hopes to be world class. We could still use him even if he didn't reach that top level, but the fact is that we need to sign a proper top quality midfielder. At the moment, if we bought Thiago then it'd be more likely that he would turn out to be top class than Cleverley.

 

[Platato]

Cleverley can become a top midfielder in my opinion. His development is a little late considering his age but he's still got time. It was his first full season with a lot of expectation on his shoulders. Out of most midfielders his age, he's probably the most inexperienced. Nonetheless, I think this past season will be a good learning curve for him. Until we finish our transfer business, it's hard to say where he is in the pecking order but I hope the influx of new players will spur him on to up his game and stake a place in the team. He's a determined lad and I felt for him as the system we employed last season didn't really suit his game.

What does surprise me is how many people thought he would impose himself in midfield so soon. It seemed to be an example of "he's 23, by this age, he should be able to control the midfield". I have always held the belief centre midfielders develop the latest out of any other position due to the amount of experience needed to excel in that position. Tom is very inexperienced and he's still learning how to manage his fitness throughout the game as well as how to consistently influence the game. It's a bit difficult to do that when you play in a system which takes the onus off of the midfield. I'm not excusing him from any poor performances he's had. Really, I'm just attempting to offer an alternative outlook to his season. So I'm not sure what fans were expecting with Tom but we all know he some way to go yet but he's got time to hone his skills and become a more influential CM. He's got the tools. He needs to learn how to express it more.

 

[Revan]

people here just want a spanish midfielder... i hope we get thiago so they can move on and start paying attention to our own players.

I remember 3 or 4 years ago, when talking to my irish/scotish friends (utd fans), they used to say "cARRICK is average, i dont like him"... for me was really hard to understand, like if they watch different games, or maybe like inception, someone put this idea in their head and no matter how good he was, he was always shit to them.

Probably like the big mayority, only since last season, they say: oh yeah, carrick is class, cueck cuekc euccdkdkdk...


like someone already wrote up there, its a cycle... now is Cleverley's turn to be underrated. But in 2 seasons more... haha

And here we come again. You only needed to say that if his name was Cleverlinho we would have love it.

The truth is far different of course, Cleverley has been good at some part of the season, shit at some others, average at some others. Personally I think that he will be a useful squad player, but not a first team player (or not for a long time). That isn't something bad, we don't need a team of superstars, and as O'Shea and Fletcher will tell you, players can be very useful even if they are not the most talented and we have better players for their position.

Anyway, Thiago is something else. I would be very happy if Cleverley ever reaches the quality Thiago have at the moment.

 

[apotheosis]

And here we come again. You only needed to say that if his name was Cleverlinho we would have love it.

The truth is far different of course, Cleverley has been good at some part of the season, shit at some others, average at some others. Personally I think that he will be a useful squad player, but not a first team player (or not for a long time). That isn't something bad, we don't need a team of superstars, and as O'Shea and Fletcher will tell you, players can be very useful even if they are not the most talented and we have better players for their position.

Anyway, Thiago is something else. I would be very happy if Cleverley ever reaches the quality Thiago have at the moment.

I can't see it either. He is not really a youngster anymore and we should be seeing far more from him if we are to believe he has what it takes to be top drawer. Clevs is neat and tidy, he moves well with the ball, but for me he just doesn't have that extra bit of quality that the top players have. He is looking more of a back up squad player than a first teamer in my view, which is a shame because i felt he looked really dynamic and confident when he first broke through as a youngster.