Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ainu said:
Those are all fine goals, particularly the first against Roma, but they aren't that many over the years. You're almost making it sound as if he's a long range specialist, which he clearly isn't. When the mood takes him and the situation presents itself, he can hit a sweet strike. That doesn't sound too disimilar from Cleverley, only the latter is still early in his career and doesn't have too many moments to reflect on yet. He's shown enough technique and capability to believe that he can equal Carrick in that department, given enough time.
Click to expand...

I think you're misunderstanding me surely?

As I said earlier, if we were in an important game with 5 miniutes to go and I had to choose between Celverley or Carrick striking a ball unopposed from 20 yards then I'd take Carrick every day. My reasoning for this... I think Carrick has a better shot on him.

What I'm debating here is the idea that Cleverley has a better shot than Carrick, I just don't see it.
 
After so many years of an inept at ball retention from England's midfield, to question Cleverley's use in the team is a sign of not understanding football.
 
After years of Gerrard and Lampard being useless as a midfield 2 you would think they would be happy now that England have players capable of keeping the ball and passing it around more. Just because Cleverley doesn't score many and play hollywood balls all game it doesn't mean a thing. How many goals do Xavi and Iniesta score?
 
He just needs to ask himself why England looked so much better in CM when Cleverley was on the pitch. But it's Howard and he's a moron.
 
Cina said:
How the feck is that man a journalist? Even the structure is awful. Single sentence paragraphs. It hurts my eyes!
Click to expand...

A rule of tabloid journalism: keep it easy for them to read.

It's the worst article I've never read. I couldn't even read it. Picked out paragraphs where Howard actually answers his own question: That he makes the play tick. He clearly doesn't watch United based on him saying "United fans will tell you..." What a fecking moron. I'm quite pleased actually, I think it's given me the inspiration for one of my own assignments which I am determined will be better than that pile of utter tripe.

Danny Welbeck was also shit don't you know? Highlighted at half time as instrumental in the first goal, but shit nonetheless. feck.
 
I'm always right said:
I think you're misunderstanding me surely?

As I said earlier, if we were in an important game with 5 miniutes to go and I had to choose between Celverley or Carrick striking a ball unopposed from 20 yards then I'd take Carrick every day. My reasoning for this... I think Carrick has a better shot on him.

What I'm debating here is the idea that Cleverley has a better shot than Carrick, I just don't see it.
Click to expand...

Well I was annoyed at your throwaway remark that Cleverley just wasn't capable of scoring some goals, so that's what I'm reacting to.
 
Solius said:
What the feck even is that? Why is every sentence on a different line? He's written all that and basically surmised that he has no idea about Cleverley really. What exactly was the point of the article?
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same bloody thing. Why answer a question with a question. Stupid journo!! Don't write an article if you dont have nothing to say about him either...
 
I agree that was a really poor article (if it can actually be considered an article). Thankfully not all journos are quit so inept. The Guardians Barney Ronay seems to have a better grasp on our Tom:

England's manager has been quite clear since the end of Euro 2012: the plan is to pack England's front five with players who are mobile and athletic and who, above all – witness the case of Tom Cleverley, now a regular starter – like to pass quickly through midfield.
Click to expand...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/feb/07/england-clear-tactics-roy-hogdson
 
#07 said:
Stephen Howard: What’s the point of Tom Cleverley?
Click to expand...

Far too many people (even United supporters) somehow fail to see what Cleverley does, they miss the fact he's an excellent passer both long and short, they miss his one touch play, they miss the fact that he aint afraid to put in a tackle, they miss his work rate, they miss the fact he's a goal threat (4 goals this season so far aint a bad return for a central midfielder who hasn't played all the games imo), for me he's basically the quintessential all round complete midfield player who at 23 is surely going to get even better
 
That article is like the flotsam and jetsam that might float around your head while you thought about what to put in your article. This silly bugger just typed it all out.
 
charlenefan said:
Far too many people (even United supporters) somehow fail to see what Cleverley does, they miss the fact he's an excellent passer both long and short, they miss his one touch play, they miss the fact that he aint afraid to put in a tackle, they miss his work rate, they miss the fact he's a goal threat (4 goals this season so far aint a bad return for a central midfielder who hasn't played all the games imo), for me he's basically the quintessential all round complete midfield player who at 23 is surely going to get even better
Click to expand...

I agree. I think he is going to be under appreciated by the masses like Scholesy was.

I love the way that as soon as he releases the ball he moves quickly, and is almost instantly ready to receive it again and pass it on quickly. In doing that he dictates the tempo, he isn't afraid to play or receive the ball in tight spaces either. Most gifs of our good one touch pay this season involves Cleverley in the build up at some point. He has fast become one of my favourite United players, I've enjoyed watching him develop and imo he is deserving of way more than just the 'neat and tidy' tag which is unfortunately how people seem to like to describe him.
 
Howard is bitter old soak. I was on the same flight as him at the Euros when 'Arry resigned, and he was spitting vitriol at him and Spurs for virtually no reason. If you're a middle aged journalist with proper aspirations of writing and you're still working for The Sun, you're bound to be either shit, bitter or a massive cnut. Or all 3.
 
It's the same thing that got thrown at Carrick, I still remember that world cup game in 06 where he got drafted in and ended up winning man of the match and a lot of the pundits at the time couldn't understand why as he "hadn't done anything".

Turns out that a lot of the English press still don't quite get the idea of a midfielder that can keep possession, unless they also love a slide tackle every now and then ala Wilshere.
 
LR7 said:
I agree. I think he is going to be under appreciated by the masses like Scholesy was.

I love the way that as soon as he releases the ball he moves quickly, and is almost instantly ready to receive it again and pass it on quickly. In doing that he dictates the tempo, he isn't afraid to play or receive the ball in tight spaces either. Most gifs of our good one touch pay this season involves Cleverley in the build up at some point. He has fast become one of my favourite United players, I've enjoyed watching him develop and imo he is deserving of way more than just the 'neat and tidy' tag which is unfortunately how people seem to like to describe him.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, however the 'neat and tidy' tag to describe him, which I myself use, I see it more as a compliment than anything else. An English midfielder that can justify such a tag (any midfielder actually) deserves a lot of praise!
 
Saying that someone is 'neat and tidy' is the new 'puts in a shift'. Where the latter was a seemingly positive comment used derogatively to indicate a lack of technique, the former is used similarly to indicate a perceived lack of creativity and forward drive. Cleverley is great at retaining possession against pressing opponents. He's constantly available and often passes first time, all of which keeps the ball moving around, which is crucial. If he sees a pass to fashion a chance, he'll play it. If he doesn't like the odds of a pass, he'll give a sensible pass to keep possession instead of trying a pass which only comes of 1/10 times. Somehow that's a bad thing.
 
I don't believe that Cleverly will get the same level of under appreciation that Carrick suffered throughout his United career. Tom is more of a live-wire than Carrick ever was, and that's not a dig on Carrick or anything. I think that you will also find that even a lot of City and Liverpool fans already recognise him as a very good player on their forums. I don't think that that has ever been the case with Carrick until the past two or so seasons. I picked those two teams because of the fact they are known to be a rather delusional set of fans.

However, I can see him getting under appreciation in the young Scholes bracket. The only thing is though, Scholes scored a lot of goals.
 
Every City/Liverpool fan I know slates Cleverley. They don't rate him at all and they blame him whenever England doesn't play well. tbf, they don't rate Carrick either.

I don't really care though as I am happy having them in our midfield.
 
Cleverley dicks on City almost every time he plays against them.
 
PatrickP said:
Every City/Liverpool fan I know slates Cleverley. They don't rate him at all and they blame him whenever England doesn't play well. tbf, they don't rate Carrick either.

I don't really care though as I am happy having them in our midfield.
Click to expand...

Look on RAWK in particular and quite a lot of them rate him though. I think that there's a ridiculous amount of childish jealousy among rival fans when it comes to young United players being picked in the England starting 11. That's for sure.
 
Ainu said:
Saying that someone is 'neat and tidy' is the new 'puts in a shift'. Where the latter was a seemingly positive comment used derogatively to indicate a lack of technique, the former is used similarly to indicate a perceived lack of creativity and forward drive. Cleverley is great at retaining possession against pressing opponents. He's constantly available and often passes first time, all of which keeps the ball moving around, which is crucial. If he sees a pass to fashion a chance, he'll play it. If he doesn't like the odds of a pass, he'll give a sensible pass to keep possession instead of trying a pass which only comes of 1/10 times. Somehow that's a bad thing.
Click to expand...

Good post.
The bolded part is how I feel most use the phrase and I personally think Tom is more than just someone who retains possession and makes safe sideways and backwards passes as some would have you believe. In the England game there was a pass over the defence that was inches from setting up a clear goal scoring opportunity (to Rooney I think) and in the last Fulham game he made 4 key passes (two more than anyone else).
 
As much as I believe Jack Wilshere deserves the hype, Cleverley's lack of clear through balls simply makes him an inferior player all round according to everyone.

It's bullshit. I rate Wilshere as high as anyone because he's a fantastic player, but surely intelligent people shouldn't be overcompensating his performances and undervaluing Cleverley's future as both a club player and full international.

Anyone with a fully-functioning set of eyes can see at club level he's formed a wonderful partnership with Michael Carrick, and on an international level he's done well in a variety of positions.

This is the problem with the general English journalists and in some cases, the fans. If it isn't all hollywood, it's average. This is why the British thought Scott Parker was an all round better footballer than Michael Carrick and Gareth Barry (who at one time wasn't bad), this is why John Terry was lauded as a national icon whereas Rio Ferdinand was a has-been.

If these people can't see the potential for a much brighter future with both Cleverley and Jack Wilshere pulling the strings, they don't deserve to be able to experience it. I've been looking forward to watching England for the first time in years knowing both of those two will be involved. They're not Xavi and Iniesta, but they're as close as we'll get to having some wonderful technicians on the pitch for us who don't rely on penalties and 20 yard piledrivers to make them look good for England.

A medal around Cleverley's neck will help though, hopefully it happens this year.
 
Cleverley isn't spectacular but we play better when he is in the team.

He is quick and always wants to push forward. He is similar to Anderson with this but Anderson is more about the killer ball and not as good as retaining possession.

A midfielder doesn't have to spray 40 yard passes to be effective.
 
Ainu said:
Saying that someone is 'neat and tidy' is the new 'puts in a shift'. Where the latter was a seemingly positive comment used derogatively to indicate a lack of technique, the former is used similarly to indicate a perceived lack of creativity and forward drive. Cleverley is great at retaining possession against pressing opponents. He's constantly available and often passes first time, all of which keeps the ball moving around, which is crucial. If he sees a pass to fashion a chance, he'll play it. If he doesn't like the odds of a pass, he'll give a sensible pass to keep possession instead of trying a pass which only comes of 1/10 times. Somehow that's a bad thing.
Click to expand...

Well I apologize then, I had no idea that 'neat and tidy' could be used that way, and I think I've used it a few times for Cleverley here. It wasn't to downplay his performances, I use the same phrase talking about Iniesta, it's what their style of play inspires for me. But I understand what you're saying, and if it's generally perceive that way, I'll refrain from using the phrase so I'm not misunderstood in the future!
 
ISSYNAZAR said:
As much as I believe Jack Wilshere deserves the hype, Cleverley's lack of clear through balls simply makes him an inferior player all round according to everyone.

It's bullshit. I rate Wilshere as high as anyone because he's a fantastic player, but surely intelligent people shouldn't be overcompensating his performances and undervaluing Cleverley's future as both a club player and full international.

Anyone with a fully-functioning set of eyes can see at club level he's formed a wonderful partnership with Michael Carrick, and on an international level he's done well in a variety of positions.

This is the problem with the general English journalists and in some cases, the fans. If it isn't all hollywood, it's average. This is why the British thought Scott Parker was an all round better footballer than Michael Carrick and Gareth Barry (who at one time wasn't bad), this is why John Terry was lauded as a national icon whereas Rio Ferdinand was a has-been.

If these people can't see the potential for a much brighter future with both Cleverley and Jack Wilshere pulling the strings, they don't deserve to be able to experience it. I've been looking forward to watching England for the first time in years knowing both of those two will be involved. They're not Xavi and Iniesta, but they're as close as we'll get to having some wonderful technicians on the pitch for us who don't rely on penalties and 20 yard piledrivers to make them look good for England.

A medal around Cleverley's neck will help though, hopefully it happens this year.
Click to expand...

I agree with you.
He is continually compared to Jack (because they're both young English centre midfielders, both better on the ball than many previous English CMs) but its almost as if only one is allowed to be considered good. My main gripe with the comparisons is that both bring something different to the table. They're not like for like. Jack drives the ball forward more because one of the main parts of his game is running with the ball. For me Tom's tempo, movement and constant availability are what makes him good in his own right. For England a midfield with them both can only be a plus.
For me personally I don't think one necessarily has to be labelled better because I think they're both better than the other at different things.
 
Without stoking undue hype which seems to attend every promising England footballer, I am really impressed with Tom Cleverley and will go so far as to say that he and Wilshere will perform brilliantly for England for many years to come. Both seem to have their head screwed on right and play the game to win and not to make themselves look great.

All the positives in Cleverley's game have already been discussed, so all all I'd like to add is that I'd like to see Cleverley improve his concentration in his last third (a few loose balls recently have led to problems) and his left-footed shooting in the box. Clean that up and with general improvement from experience it won't be ridiculous to compare Cleverley to the likes of Hazard.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Well I apologize then, I had no idea that 'neat and tidy' could be used that way, and I think I've used it a few times for Cleverley here. It wasn't to downplay his performances, I use the same phrase talking about Iniesta, it's what their style of play inspires for me. But I understand what you're saying, and if it's generally perceive that way, I'll refrain from using the phrase so I'm not misunderstood in the future!
Click to expand...

I don't actually think there's much wrong with it. It's only when used in a "he's neat and tidy BUT etc" manner that alarm bells go off. In itself it's still a positive comment.
 
I read that bollocks article and it annoyed me.

What's the point indeed? We're trying to develop an England team that treasures possession and has the ability to use it effectively against the most skilled opponents. Cleverley is the type of midfielder we don't have enough of in this country. He's effective at a quick passing game with the intelligence to unlock defences. It's amazing how dumb journalists underrate technical players like Carrick, then moan when we get outplayed by decent opposition. They should give him a break and realise the improvements that have occurred in the national team. The potential shown by him, Wilshere, etc. is worth persevering with.
 
I honestly cant remember a young English player with so much clear potential not get hyped up, it's actually quite annoying that the whole country isn't praising Cleverley even if it might be better for him in the long term
 
Ruud10 said:
Without stoking undue hype which seems to attend every promising England footballer, I am really impressed with Tom Cleverley and will go so far as to say that he and Wilshere will perform brilliantly for England for many years to come. Both seem to have their head screwed on right and play the game to win and not to make themselves look great.

All the positives in Cleverley's game have already been discussed, so all all I'd like to add is that I'd like to see Cleverley improve his concentration in his last third (a few loose balls recently have led to problems) and his left-footed shooting in the box. Clean that up and with general improvement from experience it won't be ridiculous to compare Cleverley to the likes of Hazard.
Click to expand...

Agree on all points. The nice thing is that we know he almost certainly will work on any weak points, including the two you mentioned, because even in the space of this season he's almost wiped out a couple which the Caf was worrying about in September - being a push-over in the tackle and too easily shrugged off, for example. Against Brazil he won a couple of those slightly hack-y 50/50s where both players try and force the ball through one another for a few second until one comes out on top. His increased physical courage and determination were obvious.
 
charlenefan said:
I honestly cant remember a young English player with so much clear potential not get hyped up, it's actually quite annoying that the whole country isn't praising Cleverley even if it might be better for him in the long term
Click to expand...

Some article the other day 'What's the point of Tom Cleverley for England?'
 
AttackingFlair said:
Some article the other day 'What's the point of Tom Cleverley for England?'
Click to expand...

Exactly my point this kid with the English media's reputation should be being built up as the English Iniesta or something stupid like that

What's the point in Cleverley? Mores to the point what's the point in Milner? What's the point in Gary Cahill? What's the point in Downing or any of the other dross that's played for England down the years.

From what I've seen so far Cleverley is going to be the best player we've brought through our youth ranks since the likes of Scholes and Beckham
 
Status
Not open for further replies.