Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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Why the roll eyes? It was in response to the last post on the page before this.
Carrick has been taken off only when we are doing well and to keep him fresh for upcoming games. Fletcher is relevant because in the past Fergie rarely took off CMs in the past and to suggest that it has been more to do with the likes of Cleverley/Anderson whose performances do tend to tail off in the middle stages of second halves that he has started to sub CMs as you say between the 65-75 min mark.
The eye roll wasn't about the Wilshere comparison, it was about the myth of Cleverley always tiring after 70 minutes, which is bollocks, and which I was arguing against just before your post.
So when Carrick gets taken off, it's tactical, but when Cleverley comes off, it's because he's exhausted? Nope, sorry, that has no foundation whatsoever in what you could actually see in the matches themselves. Just before coming off in the Fulham match, Cleverley busted a gut sprinting back to outrun and contain a Fulham counter-attack, and didn't even look particularly out of breath. And that sort of thing has been the case again and again this season. This idea that he gets knackered has developed almost completely from people paying more attention to the pattern of his substitutions than to his actual performance in the matches. And also because it mirrors Anderson's similar 75-min substitutions, which may well have something to do with fitness (although I don't really know about that one.)
You're right that the trend is one from recent seasons. Personally, I don't think that is anything specifically to do with Ando and Clev, since it's carried on when they're not being played, and as I said before has seen Carrick come off almost as often as Tom has. I reckon it's something SAF's been forced to adopt by the relative weakness of our midfield. Our 'first name on the team-sheet' players over the last two or three seasons - Rooney, Vidic, Evra, RVP this season - haven't been midfielders. We don't have a CM who you can't substitute if you want to win the match. In fact, we often have CMs who are strong in some areas and weak in others (Cleverley in dominating possession and slick passing, Anderson in more adventurous attacking football), and have to be substituted to try and turn the match in our favour. So that's why I reckon the trend has developed, not because of the apparent fitness problems of one player.
Carrick starts quite a lot more games than Cleverley does and is considered a more important player, naturally we will give him a rest when we need to. Cleverley usually looks jaded after 70 minutes.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point then, as I don't think he has done more than once or twice this season.
Ok then stick to your belief that Carrick taken off is the exact same reason as when the likes of Cleverlely and Ando are. To me I've only seen Carrick taken off when we are comfortably ahead - whereas Ando/Cleverley typically come off either to provide more energy as the team tends to be losing the midfield battle or we are chasing the game and need the likes of Giggs to give us a little more guile.
I don't agree with the bonded bit at all. I don't think it's down to who the respective managers have more faith in. The fact that Tom has played in most of the bigger games this season shows SAF has plenty of faith in him, as has been mentioned on here already, I think SAF is just managing Toms games, especially in light of his injuries.
This is a little bit from Michael Owens blogpost Too Much Too Soon:
Personally I think this is why Tom is playing every minute.
I think Wilshere is a better player and would love to see him at united but I dont accept your conclusion to be true. Wenger doesnt trust him more than SAF does Cleverley, SAF just has more options. Arsenals other CM's include Diaba (constantly injured), Arteta and Rosicky (injury prone and declining as footballers) and Cazola.
Every player on the pitch looks jaded after 70 mins - I simply do not accept Cleverley gets subbed because he's out of gas - I can accept preservation cos of his propensity to get injured though!
Do you have any empirical evidence to prove this or you are just kowtowing the media-fuelled conjectures that Wilshere is the better player?
It's quite obvious. Wilshere is a better player at this moment in time,not only for the fact that he's just been laid out for a year and a half and is already starting to get back to running the midfield for Arsenal again. He's 2 and a half years younger than Cleverley and has missed a chunk of development, so it's testament to his talent that he's nearing his best after such a long time out. I think Cleverley is a good player who has the potential to become excellent as he does what you require of a midfielder very well already. Wilshere's a different beast, been like that since he was 16.
Incidentally (& totally off topic) but how good is that Ross Barkley fella from Everton? He was quite hyped a year or 2 ago, as a Rooney like talent (as a midfielder). So I've been expecting him to kick on and make one of those CM spots his own which hasn't really happened.
Is he any good, anyone who's watched him a lot?
Is he any good, anyone who's watched him a lot?
He's on loan to Leeds and doing well. Just turned 19, so has plenty of time and too early to make judgements.
Aargh, thanks dude. Wasn't even aware that he was loaned out. Thought he's been getting games for the Toffees.
Age is nothing - different players have different trajectories in their developments. At 18, people would have thought Michael Owen would go on and become a Pele/Maradona but it never came to pass. Where was Zidane or Makelele at 20? Where was Di Natale or Luca Toni at even 23?
The whole Wilshere is better than Cleverley is more of a myth than the actual fact. The Media feed people with garbage and people take what they as the gospel truth being the general consensus. I am going to laid bare the statistics of Wilshere vs Cleverley for you and you would agree with me that Cleverley and most players in United rarely get the credits they deserve.
I'm as big a fan of Cleverley as there is, but Wilshere is better. There's really no shame in it, Wilshere is possibly the best true CM of his age in the world (definitely top three).
Still my top fantasy United transfer.
Still my top fantasy United transfer.
Wilshere was loads better at 18-20 then our Tom was, the idea that SAF should have been playing Cleverley then is utterly, absurdly ridiculous.
Tom has closed the gap a lot but he's still a bit behind Wilshere. Wilshere was one of those players who was just naturally fantastic in his teens and didn't look out of place at all.
Tom has closed the gap a lot but he's still a bit behind Wilshere. Wilshere was one of those players who was just naturally fantastic in his teens and didn't look out of place at all.
Yep, everyone's body and style of football matures at different rates and ages. Wilshere was like Rooney, playing essentially his adult game by the age of 17. That said, he wasn't as completely physically developed as Rooney, and it wasn't till the Bolton loan that he started to look physically like he does now - quite broad and stocky, with a real physical strength to his game. Before that, he'd been quite slight, and too easy to push off the ball.
I wonder how Tom will measure up to Jack in two or three years? I think that he still has a lot of development to do and isn't currently that far behind. I don't think that we'll see the best of Cleverly until he's around 26.
Agreed. His game is much more of a slow developer. It might keep growing even beyond 26 - it's certainly been true of a lot of midfield greats.
The time Wilshere took out might have helped him in that sense, in that he worked on his core strength which he has said in interviews since his return. He now says his core strength is '100 percent' stronger than it ever has been. He's certainly able to ride challenges a lot more when he starts running with the ball, far moreso in comparison prior to his injury.
Age is nothing - different players have different trajectories in their developments. At 18, people would have thought Michael Owen would go on and become a Pele/Maradona but it never came to pass. Where was Zidane or Makelele at 20? Where was Di Natale or Luca Toni at even 23?
The whole Wilshere is better than Cleverley is more of a myth than the actual fact. The Media feed people with garbage and people take what they as the gospel truth being the general consensus. I am going to laid bare the statistics of Wilshere vs Cleverley for you and you would agree with me that Cleverley and most players in United rarely get the credits they deserve.
Cleverley is a very good player but he's certainly not as good as Wilshere yet, and I doubt he will ever be as good as him to be honest. Wilshere is younger then Tom and was a main part of arsenals midfield before the year and a half injury, and immediately back from it he is looking very good again. Cleverley has only this season started playing consistently. Also those stats don't exactly help your case.
Still though, I think Wilshere and Cleverley together would be a fantastic midfield, and a very promising one for England.
I agree that Wilshere is the better player overall now, but I'm very excited about how Cleverley can become and can actually see a path for Cleverley becoming the better player in the near future.
I don't think it is impossible but it seems unlikely. Wilshere would have to peak early or suffer a few more serious injuries.
Agreed, which is why I chose my words carefully: "can see a path...".
The smart money says Wilshere will always be the better player, but I really do like the rapid improvement in Cleverley's game since he's been able to stay free from injuries over the last year. We shall see.
Yep. Agreed. Wilshere is already running games for Arsenal regularly.
Cleverley's best attribute is probably his willingness to learn, really. He is always improving and looking to improve.
Only just went on loan to Leeds and has done 'ok' in his 2 games so far.
Had a productive spell at Sheffield Wednesday earlier in the season were he really stood out.
Quick question to those posters who say Wilshere is already "running games for Arsenal regularly" - which games are those then? I've watched Arsenal closely in a lot of the big games this season, and Wilshere hasn't particularly stood out from the crowd.
He's a class prospect, but not the all-conquering force some make him out to be. He's merely one of the biggest personalities for a decent team. He has no pressure to win anything.
Cleverley has quietly become a key part of a trophy chasing squad.
He's a class prospect, but not the all-conquering force some make him out to be. He's merely one of the biggest personalities for a decent team. He has no pressure to win anything.
Cleverley has quietly become a key part of a trophy chasing squad.
Which games...?
If Cleverley can add that bit of aggressiveness into his game in the right way, he'll be a better player than what he is currently (which is what Carrick finds himself at right now), never mind that his all round play will improve as he plays more games at this young age
You are watching the wrong games, Feed me. Unfortunately, this ended in a Arsenal loss but you need to check out his performance in the City game. Arsenal has a man sent off but even then Wilshere was quite ahead of the other 20 players present on the pitch.
Wilshere has more natural ability and talent than Cleverley. You just have to watch him to notice that he that something extra to his game. That doesn't mean that Cleverley is a bad player, infact he is very good on the path to becoming excellent.
Age difference is pretty perfunctory in the comparison. Cleverley is two years and some change older than Wilshere but Jack has more experience with Arsenal's first team than Tom has with United's. Both will grow and become excellent players in a couple of years time.
Wilshere has more natural ability and talent than Cleverley. You just have to watch him to notice that he that something extra to his game. That doesn't mean that Cleverley is a bad player, infact he is very good on the path to becoming excellent.
Age difference is pretty perfunctory in the comparison. Cleverley is two years and some change older than Wilshere but Jack has more experience with Arsenal's first team than Tom has with United's. Both will grow and become excellent players in a couple of years time.
What ForeverGiggs said. And even watch the last game against Stoke....
Before that he was very good against Liverpool and West Ham too. So that's the last 3 games in a row..
Can list many other games too like CL against Montpellier. You just have to observe him to see he has that extra quality in certain areas over Cleverley.
Those stats, for me, say that Wilshere is comfortably the better player. They pretty much show Wilshere as the complete midfielder. He 'attacks the space', he is adept at defending through reading the game and he creates chances in open play and from set pieces.
Cleverley is more of a facilitator, he links up play, whereas Wilshere is a key player. I don't think that Cleverley plays well enough at the moment to command a automatic starting place. I am quite sure that if Wilshere played for us then he would start almost every game alongside Carrick. I also think that Cleverley suffers from confidence issues at times, you sometimes see him make a poor pass, groan in frustration and then shrink in the game. Wilshere is a fighter, he just has that big time aura about him.
I do agree that Cleverley will most likely be a gradual developer but Wilshere is just the better talent.
Hannibal is talking serious nonsense here.
Cleverley better than Wilshire, good grief!
Cleverley better than Wilshire, good grief!
Wilshere has that extra bite than Cleverley still doesn't. He kinda gets under the skin of his opponents, Wilshere with his sliding in and shoving players.
Wilshere is the better player. But as long as Cleverley is a good player for United I don't see the problem. It's no loss to United if Wilshere is picked for England ahead of Tom.
Exactly. There's no need to constantly compare the two really. It's as pointless as Messi v Ronaldo, it's quite clear who is the better player, but it doesn't mean Cleverley isn't good enough to play for us, he obviously is.
I am actually really looking forward to seeing Wilshere back in England colours. He is exactly what the team needs.
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