I don't think anyone would disagree that both Cleverley and Kagawa were at fault in the build up of that goal
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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I don't think anyone would disagree that both Cleverley and Kagawa were at fault in the build up of that goal
Sorry, not the goal, but the Steven Gerrard cleared off the line (or close enough to it). I tend to treat a mistake which leads to a clear scoring chance (that is unconverted) as the same as a mistake which leads to a goal, if the ball is given away in similarly dangerous positions / plenty of attackers forward for the counter. That's because on one day you're lucky and it doesn't end up being punished, but it's a mistake that will be punished eventually if it's not a one off mistake.
I thought it was baffling Carrick was left on the bench, Gerrard was made to play a deeper role and Cleverley was made to play a more attacking role. That's 3 players not utilised in positions they play best for in club shirt, then they shunted Welbeck out wide as well.
Yup. Said that a few times in the last month or so. I always thought he'd develop into a #10 from what I'd seen at Wigan, United friendlies and Eng U-21s but I've found it interesting to note that for GB and United he's actually looked miles better operating in a deeper position.
I don't think anyone would disagree that both Cleverley and Kagawa were at fault in the build up of that goal
i remember many criticizing Kagawa for his part, and not mentioning Cleverley at all after the match. Given a few days and several comments (Of which I remember) from others, possibly many came round.
But people certainly were purely blaming Kagawa for much longer than a few hours.
Yeh we've already discussed that. It was a poor piece of play from Cleverley. Especially as Johnson had overcommited on the right so we were massively vulnerable.
But it was the only time in the game he gave the ball away like that. It's a bit ridiculous that you seem to be judging the performance of a young player on 1 incident rather than looking at the whole of his game.
Also, that wouldn't have happened if he didn't keep asking for the ball. Maybe he should have done what Lampard and Ox-Cha did and shy away all together? Can't give it away if you don't have it afterall.
You make it sound as though everyone wanted Kagawa hung drawn and quartered. They didn't. Just saying he was at fault in the build up. Which he was.
The ball from Cleverley wasn't great but Kagawa was half asleep, waiting for the ball to reach him instead of meeting the ball. Certainly more at fault than Cleverley.
Judging.
Where did I judge him?
I said 'Don't forget he was also culpable for the goal' or words to that effect [Yes, it wasn't the goal it led to, as you corrected me, but on another day, that would've been] and even said on the previous page, that I'm not going to judge him based on the game as I've not seen it.
However, I can judge his [long term] finishing, and finishing in general (again not his performance, but an aspect which you can clearly glean from watching the main points) and all I reminded armchair critic was, that he was robbed in possession which should've led to a goal - Again not a judgment.
To be honest though I really don't know why Hodgson and co. built up Cleverley so quickly, they should know better with the media.
It wasn't the only time in the game at all, he lost the ball far more than once.
Brady > Cleverley
Where did I say it was the only time he gave the ball away?
I said it was the only way he gave it away like that. He gave it away with sloppy passes on quite a few occasions. Certainly more than you'd expect.
The whole shape of the England team was terrible last night, Jagielka and Lescott weren't the best at bringing the ball out and Lampard and Gerrard didn't control the tempo. Milner might as well not bother playing, Oxlade-Chamberlain seemed lost. Defoe doesn't bring anything in terms of link-up play and Ukraine were setup to defend deep and hit on the counter. I don't think Ukraine are getting enough credit and Hodgson isn't getting enough criticism for an aimless setup. Cleverley made errors last night befitting that of a player who last played in that position in the Championship for Watford.
It was Lescott's crap pass that led to the goal.
Yeh judging was the wrong word to use. I think it's just because of your general negative vibe with posts in here and the RVP thread.
No, we've resolved that.
He was talking about the Southampton game/England game where Ukraine attacked but didn't score.
Delete where applicable....
Yes. Are all players identical in their development? They're not even remotely alike. Fletcher wasn't positionally inept for one.
Neither is Cleverley. He's inexperienced yes but not inept.
Jesus.
Fletcher was awful for his first few years in the first team. Cleverley is miles ahead of that level. Do you remember how much people mocked him?
Besides, he was more defensive by nature so it was always what he did on the ball that he had to work on, like Cleverley has to work on the defensive side of his game.
He really isn't. At 23 Fletcher was already showing his big game pedigree. I'd wait until Cleverley has started more than 10 league games for Utd before declaring him miles ahead.
Is that not the point I was making. They're different players. You can't look at one to project how another will develop. They are not connected.
Matter of opinion really. Maybe he will improve enough with experience. Maybe he won't. What Fletcher achieved is irrelevant.
He will definitely improve, he's an intelligent footballer, you can see it in his movement. If Fletcher is irrelevant then you didn't need to compare them.
I'm sure he'll improve but not sure it will be to the level some here think. I've never such hype for a player so quickly, based on so little game time.
I didn't. Ekeke made the comparison. I pointed out it was silly.
The notion that Fletcher was not looked at as positionally inept at age 22 is laughable in the extreme and the worst revisionism possible. Fletcher was treated like Satan's son by man a United fan. Especially on here
To be fair some of those who hype him up are basing it on his loan spells and reserve team games too, Eric Harrison and Sir Alex also seem to agree. Pogba and Morrison had more hype for me and they hardly played for the First Team, our weakness in midfield means perhaps the fans go a bit overboard when players come through in that area of the field. However you can see, despite the limited sample size for some, that Cleverley is a very talented player. His movement, willingness to be on the ball and understanding of tempo is very good. He doesn't force passes very often either, he gets caught a bit too high up the pitch but as he gains confidence and experience I am sure he will drop deeper and be happier to conduct the tempo of the play. He has a good engine on him too.
I missed that, must have been on the other page, only caught the quote on this page. My apologies.
There's always been idiots around. I don't recall the complaints about Fletcher relating to positional play though. Doesn't mean they were right.
I like that he can keep the game simple and looks to pass quickly but I don't think he gets on the ball anywhere near enough.
I think you're right about why people are tending to go overboard about him.
Barring injuries he will blossom into a really good midfielder, you can hold me to it.
He certainly should have dropped deeper and demanded the ball more last night against Ukraine, but for United I think he gets on the ball enough. I think his vision and composure will improve with time, he seems to have the capacity for it.
I think some of us are excited just because a United academy player, from a very young age as well, has captured a place in the United and England teams. I don't recall anyone saying they thought he'd rise this far this fast.
England v Ukraine: Tom Cleverley learns that Wayne Rooney's boots are tough boots to fill
As columnists tend to use a lot of words to say something very simple I've quoted the key point: Cleverley works better with the game in front of him than behind him and that's why he should play in centre midfield and does play in centre midfield for Sir Alex.
Cleverley may be 23 but he has had nowhere near the same level of experience as someone like Wilshere in the centre of the park so comparing the two is unfair on Tom. The most he's ever played in centre midfield has been for Ole in the reserves.
Cleverley has however showed evidence of his ability to pick up points from studying the best in that area and apply it. He will need a sustained run to really embed that in himself but there are more than enough signs that once he has a bedrock of experience behind him he'll kick on. He just needs time...
...and a hell of a lot of shooting practice to boot.
As columnists tend to use a lot of words to say something very simple I've quoted the key point: Cleverley works better with the game in front of him than behind him and that's why he should play in centre midfield and does play in centre midfield for Sir Alex.
Cleverley may be 23 but he has had nowhere near the same level of experience as someone like Wilshere in the centre of the park so comparing the two is unfair on Tom. The most he's ever played in centre midfield has been for Ole in the reserves.
Cleverley has however showed evidence of his ability to pick up points from studying the best in that area and apply it. He will need a sustained run to really embed that in himself but there are more than enough signs that once he has a bedrock of experience behind him he'll kick on. He just needs time...
...and a hell of a lot of shooting practice to boot.
if he had shooting boots on. He'd have been getting praised ..oh well...
Remember his goals against the MLS All Stars, that was classy. All he needs is one goal and he'll be fine. He has a tendency to fall away too quickly on his shots though.
Exactly, one simple tap inm or a few inches to the left with that one that hit the post, and the headlines would go from "Cleverley not ready yet, a lot to learn" etc to "Cleverley stars again as England find answer to no10 role"
That is true. Although I still don't think Cleverley plays very well off the front. I said in the aftermath of the Moldova game that it was probably his 3rd best performance of the season so far behind Hannover in pre-season and Fulham at home. I just don't think Cleverley does well with the game behind him and certainly the way Sir Alex uses him would indicate in his mind Cleverley isn't a "10".
The problem is that perceptions are so often coloured by goals. Lampard scored a couple of times against Moldova and all of a sudden we're told Lampard and Gerrard works by the press. There is, to be fair, often a connection between the scoreline and performances but its not always the case.
Its like when Scholes was played wide left in Euro 2004 and got on the scoresheet against Croatia and it was proclaimed 'the solution' about how to get him, Lampard and Gerrard had been found. Just because Scholes could play and score off the left it didn't mean he should. Yes, had Clev scored he'd have been lionised by it would've been wrong to do so. He's not the same player in front of the play. He's just not.
Exactly, one simple tap inm or a few inches to the left with that one that hit the post, and the headlines would go from "Cleverley not ready yet, a lot to learn" etc to "Cleverley stars again as England find answer to no10 role"
Hey, even Jesus hit the post.
Too soon?
Also, let's not forget hs got 11 in 33 at Watford. OK, it's a lower level, but it shows that when he's in the groove he can and does find the back of the net.
As you say, he just needs to nock in one or two at Premier League / International level and he'll be fine in that regard.
The only part of that post which is relevant to what I'm saying is the bolded. I don't disagree with any of the rest and never indicated I did. He played poorly, that's my point, all the rest of your post is doing is offering reasons why he did so, and I agree with them. I'd be the first to say we need to rein in our expectations of him due to his lack of experience, not to mention the fact he was played out of position and playing in a team which in it's entirety underperformed.
But that's not what I was talking about, which I thought was clear. People have undergone some wierd revisionism since last night in the match thread where he was shit, to now where people are saying he was 'very good', which he wasn't in the slightest. The whole team was poor and Cleverley was no better.
The reasons you highlighted are all true, and it isn't a big deal that he wasn't at his best at all. The whole team was shit and he was no worse than the others, so who gives a feck. But saying he was very good is way off from reality.
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