I wonder if he'll buy the new PES and give himself some magic shooting boots so he starts scoring goals.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter Bebe
- Start date
- Status
No one has said he was very good, I said he was England's best but I have also said England were shit. Deduct from that what you will. The rest of that post was just to point how it's unfair the press is getting on Tom's back when the problems were much wider spread.
Err, yes they did.
Like whom? If he had scored then the attitudes in the Press would have been much different, I don't anyone feels he had a great game last night.
One person.
No, are plenty lf people saying he did well. Lampard was apparently fecking dire, Gerrard, Milner, Ox as well etc, but Cleverley was apparently much better. In reality he wasn't, they all underperformed.
But I cba carrying this on, it's getting tedious. Sounds like you agree with me anyway.
Lampard was apparently fecking dire, Gerrard, Milner, Ox as well etc, but Cleverley was apparently much better. In reality he wasn't, they all underperformed.
But I cba carrying this on, it's getting tedious. Sounds like you agree with me anyway.
Yeah I just realised we were arguing about nothing, in reality I don't think we care
.Well I especially thought he was very good compared to the rest of the team, and I stick by my comment that he was the best English player during the first half. I wasn't exactly saying he'd been world-class or anything, I was just pointing out that despite his missed chances, he did pretty well.
Any games he is getting for United or England at the moment are good news for him, regardless of where he is played.
I watched him fairly closely last night and I thought the midfield two just struggled to get the ball to him on any of the occasions when he managed to find space in his actual starting position. He ended up drifting just to get into the game.
United bias aside, Carrick is excellent at just moving the ball forwards, and would have perhaps coaxed a more involved performance out of him.
As for England in the current situation, until Wilshere is back Cleverly is a pretty unique player in the squad. I'd be building the team around him right now.
I watched him fairly closely last night and I thought the midfield two just struggled to get the ball to him on any of the occasions when he managed to find space in his actual starting position. He ended up drifting just to get into the game.
United bias aside, Carrick is excellent at just moving the ball forwards, and would have perhaps coaxed a more involved performance out of him.
As for England in the current situation, until Wilshere is back Cleverly is a pretty unique player in the squad. I'd be building the team around him right now.
This is quite odd. In the Hannover game, our midfield was porous with him and Kagawa playing together. In the Fulham game, the midfield was similarly exposed with him playing alongside Anderson - albeit we didn't concede as many goals. In fact, I would say that, in all the games Cleverly has been involved in a two man midfield, the midfield has been extremely weak defensively, but he has contributed phenomenally going forward.
Everton, Fulham, Southampton (and Hannover)... and last season too when he Anderson were playing together, the midfield was extremely weak defensively. All the evidence is to the contrary that he can play in a deeper role because he seems to lack the desire or inclination to take up defensive positions.
Going forward, Cleverly is always good value, but I'm not sure I see him playing in a midfield pairing, as yet.
I would argue it only becomes an issue when we stop attacking. For example, how many times did we hear Dembele's name before De Gea and Vidic bumped into each other? We completely dominated the match up until that point and it was only when the anxiety that we might leave ourselves open if we continue to push on that Fulham came into the game. Up until that point everyone watching including commentators with links to other clubs were predicting United to go on to score 4 or 5. Likewise against Hanover. As soon as United turned it up a notch they simply couldn't get on the ball.
If Cleverley was not capable there's no way we could dominate the ball for long periods of time to the extent we have been able to with him in the side. If the midfield was as porous as you're suggesting then we would never have gotten back into the game so fast after going 1-0 down so early against Fulham. The fact that teams, for the most part, have found with Cleverley in the side they cannot just shut up shop and break down our attacks by bullying us in midfield would seem to indicate that he's not the liability your comment suggests he is. Actually I would suggest that when Cleverley's in the mood and is moving the ball quickly between himself and his midfield partner the slow, clunking, midfielders of most premier league sides spend more time chasing shadows than being a threat to our defence.
Well... yes! Dembele was getting in a lot of good positions actually. That being said though, one player can only do so much, our team has better players than Fulham, so us controlling possession should not exactly come as a surprise, nor does it mean our midfield played a blinder either. As I said, we score goals, but we are also extremely prone to conceding them; so, again, commentators saying we could score 4 or 5 is neither here nor there. My point was that Cleverly does not have the kind of defensive awareness required to play as the kind of midfielder needed to use the 4321 formation effectively.
This is not to say Cleverly can't defend, he can. He just prefers to pressure the ball high up the pitch, rather than the kind of mopping up we need from the midfield pairing. Most teams in the premier league don't 'bully' us in midfield at all. This is just a myth. As you say, we keep the ball better than most teams in the league... but, we are vulnerable to counter-attacks. Hannover did this. Everton did this. Fulham tried, but didn't have the quality to pull though. And Southampton did this. The question now becomes why are we vulnerable to counter-attacks?
Two reasons really. Injuries in defence this season, and a midfield that over-commits itself when in possession. You say this only becomes an issue if we stop attacking, but it's not possible to control the ball for an entire 90 minutes, let alone attack for 90 minutes. The other team will definitely get time on the ball, and it's up to our players to deal with the ensuing counter attacks. If the midfield over-commits, it leaves spaces for opponents to take up in front of the defence, and if you re-watch a lot of the goals we concede, you will notice how easily opposing midfielders seem to find themselves in good positions in our defensive third and Cleverly (and to be fair, Anderson at times) is chasing the play. It happens too frequently.
I think this comes down to a difference in perspective. I believe the best form of attack is defence and my assumption is Fergie also feels this we simply haven't perfected the art.
You could argue that it started with the Champions League final at Wembley in 2011 but its certainly been the case that Fergie has been trying to move more towards us being a side that presses from the front. When it works it looks incredible when it doesn't we look vulnerable.
Barcelona and Real Madrid are obviously better than us at it. In the Classico games when either was in the ascendancy they virtually sat on top of each other with very high defensive back lines. It takes confidence and great passing to pull it off.
I would argue that the reasons that at times we look vulnerable trying to copy this approach isn't entirely down to the actions of Ando and Cleverley alone.
What are you even talking about?
If you actually listened to all the managers Cleverley has played under they've all talked about how impressive he is at reading the game and positional work.
Cleverley is just a young central midfielder. If you cant see that you have real problems.
I think you mean the best form of defence is attacking.
But yes, I agree with that view. Pressing high up the pitch - great. Leaving spaces for opposing players - not so great. We don't play like Barca, although our style vaguely resembles Madrid's, although this is more the setup than anything else. They play a 4321 formation with two midfielders who are disciplined in defence but also contribute attacking-wise: Khedira and Alonso. Most teams playing this formation do the same: City, Bayern, Dortmund... etc.
We even did it once. When Scholes and Carrick were at their peak anyway.
Absolutely agree Sults mate. It's a bad idea for him because his strength is specifically NOT standing out, rather keeping things ticking over and working the other team. I can see what noods and Brwned are saying, but I think he had a poor game although he still did a lot of the basics right. I also thought Lampard was a lot better than Gerrard and am really mystified by the Gerrard praise.
Gerrard's night consisted of either run back and show for it, get ball 10 yards inside own half, look up, hoof to the big men up top (Cleverly or Defoe....), or passing it back to the keeper. Lampard showed for it just as much as Gerrard did, but the difference was that when he got the ball he looked up and tried to play a short forward pass. I would wager about 70% of the posession that Defoe and Cleverly received ball-to-feet was from Lampard passes.
Apart from that I though Chamberlain and Johnson were England's worst 2 players by far, and somehow Johnson got himself in with a shout of MotM
EDIT: Having reflected a little, Lampard was by no means excellent and we still managed to spend about 50% of our time in posession with a huge diamond around the centre circle empty of a single England player, but relative to Gerrard I thought he was a great deal better. Also takes a half decent pen
Yeh Butt is right in that no-one can really see where he is headed until he plays a full season in United's engine room. His development over this season is absolutely crucial, now is his chance and he needs to take it if he wants to be a permanent fixture long term.
That said it's daft to suggest he is "phenomenal." It just continues the hyperbolic praise for a player who really cannot possibly live up to this description. It's actually pretty tiresome on the whole. Just let him play football and we will see where he is at come May.
I'm English and us to well but Jesus, blaiming Cleverley for not being ready when he won a penalty in the earlier game and hut the post v Ukraine whilst Gerrard lets a goal in and gets sent off... Right!
Of course he's not ready, they all need games but Lampard, Barry, Terry, Gerrard keep getting them. Play now and they are ready for twonyears time that bit more.
Of course he's not ready, they all need games but Lampard, Barry, Terry, Gerrard keep getting them. Play now and they are ready for twonyears time that bit more.
The thing I like about Cleverley is that he improves season by season as he accumulates experience, unlike some players who should get better but don't.
Ooo burn, Anderson.
Tom cruise: Wigan boss thrilled to have helped classy Cleverley reach the top
Some great quotes from Martinez on our Tom in this article:
Some great quotes from Martinez on our Tom in this article:
But, but he's overrated on the Caf.
So that's SAF, Capello and now Martinez who rate Tom highly. But yeah we're biased to rate him highly.
So that's SAF, Capello and now Martinez who rate Tom highly. But yeah we're biased to rate him highly.
I'm yet to hear much over the top praise for the player he can become. The only young payer I've heard such crazy predictions is Welbeck and the people who predict he will be as good as Henry.
Literally a page or two ago someone said he could become nearly as good as Paul Scholes.
Ah yesh, cause promising young English players are never over hyped, are they?
Just as an example, by the way, here are posts from two pages of this thread from this time last year, after four starts (out of a total of five for the entire season).
Only god knows eh...
Hes making fantastic strides, even the likes of Zizou had to do this before becoming the player we all remember so fondly.
If he keeps it up the sky is the limit. He's got a fantastic footballing brain. Brilliant work ethic and all he needs now is his first goal, and dare i say he could catch fire like our ginger ninja used to.
I think some people forget these players are young!!! I wouldn't get over critical with the comparisons because you never know. In 6 years time player X might be the new youngster and people might be comparing him to Welbeck and getting laughed at..
It was just a response to point out that he has been over hyped and had silly comparisons made about him ever since he broke into the first team last year.
But apparently because his own manager, Fabio "Gareth Bale is better than Messi" Capello, and the manager of Wigan have said lovely things about him, he's not being overrated at all.
it's worth a try I bet
Fair enough. I guess I haven't been paying enough attention. Although I have to say the ones regarding his style of play or who he reminds them of don't deserve to be there. Saying he's like Xavi or reminds someone of Iniesta or Scholes isn't the same as saying he's as talented or them or going to become as good as them.
But people are saying he can be as good (or close to) Scholes.
Every player gets overhyped on here, especially if they're English, because they get totally overhyped by the media too as soon as they show even a glimpse of promise.
Not to blow my own trumpet, but whilst those posts were floating around last year, I said people are going "overboard" about him in the thread and everyone slandered me for it, and hey presto, one game later he gets himself injured and doesn't start another match the entire season.
Every player is "his own" in a way, but as irritating as it might be, comparisons will always be drawn between an up-and-coming youngster with big potential and an already established star.
In the end you'll never hear anyone say X player played exactly like player Y even if they were compared to one another at one point of their carreers.
Cleverley will be Cleverley, not Scholes, Xavi or Iniesta, and in about 10 years or so we'll be getting a new youngster that "plays just like Cleverley".
In the end you'll never hear anyone say X player played exactly like player Y even if they were compared to one another at one point of their carreers.
Cleverley will be Cleverley, not Scholes, Xavi or Iniesta, and in about 10 years or so we'll be getting a new youngster that "plays just like Cleverley".
Yes, but there was no overrating happening in RDCR07, Red Pavan and gooDevil's posts. And that's half the posts you've quoted. Not actually disagreeing with you.
Also, him not starting another match the entire season doesn't actually prove you right because he was injured for most of that time and by the time hw as back we had a good balance to our team and couldn't afford him coming back rusty. This season is a much better indicator.
It wasn't a case of being right, merely that after four games people were saying this stuff as opposed to waiting before doing so.
Anyway, it's not just him, pretty much all our young English players are overhyped and given silly expectations as soon as they venture into our first team and have a few decent games. In my opinion the only one of them who has proven he can meet the expectations and be one of the best in his position is Smalling, so far.
Or we'll be getting a new youngster that "hopefully won't turn out like Cleverley".
I agree. He played well in those four matches and therefore rated accordingly. However he got injured after that and somehow his stock dropped after that. He has done well since he has come back, saying he'll be as good as Scholes is obviously idiotic.
However nowadays you can't seem to praise Cleverley before some Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime get their panties in a Twist and claim he's been overrated blah blah.
FWIW every manager Tom has played under has said nothing but praise for Cleverley but obviously the people here now better.
What manager wouldn't praise their own player?
There's nothing wrong with "praising" a player or saying they've had good performances, but clearly some people in this thread have gone overboard in the past, as have the English media (as usual), just like we and them do about every single talented British player out there. Your point was stupid though, claiming that because SAF (his own manager), Capello (has a terrible track record complimenting players) and Martinez (a manager he played for) have praised him, that those of us who keep our heads on the ground are "Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime".
There's nothing wrong with "praising" a player or saying they've had good performances, but clearly some people in this thread have gone overboard in the past, as have the English media (as usual), just like we and them do about every single talented British player out there. Your point was stupid though, claiming that because SAF (his own manager), Capello (has a terrible track record complimenting players) and Martinez (a manager he played for) have praised him, that those of us who keep our heads on the ground are "Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime".
That's not the first time Martinez has praised Cleverley. Also have you considered the possibility that they maybe praising Cleverley because he's a good player rather than because he is their own player or played for them in the past?
Or is that out of the window.
Or is that out of the window.
It's obviously a mixture of both, but do you also not think they'd be less inclined to praise him if he wasn't their own player?
Anyway, according to you I underrate our entire team apart from Nani, seemingly because I haven't gone with this odd consensus that a 23 year old Tom Cleverley who has started less than 10 games for us is the second coming.
Anyway, according to you I underrate our entire team apart from Nani, seemingly because I haven't gone with this odd consensus that a 23 year old Tom Cleverley who has started less than 10 games for us is the second coming.
- Status