Brwned and noodlehair have explained what I was trying to say on the previous page much better than I ever could.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter Bebe
- Start date
- Status
Bingo. Had another solid game and did what people have been begging an english midfield player to do for years - one touch passing and moving all over the place - and now he had a shit game cause he missed a couple of good chances. It's judging on goal output alone that got England in the mess it's been in for a decade.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw what I thought I saw. I mean, he wasn't brilliant, but his movement was bright and he was the one causing Ukraine problems when England were in possession. No one else was, aside from the subs.
All of the problems were occuring behind him. The defenders never had options on the ball unless Gerrard was showing for it. When they were bringing it up the pitch to open up options themselves, their distribution was shocking. Lampard wasn't doing his job. Milner kept running inside the fullback when Ukraine were in possession (was he told to do this in order to keep tabs on something, because if not, what the feck?). Several times Ukraine seemed to take Johnson out of the equation completely by just running up the pitch slightly faster than him. Same with Jagielka.
As far as I can see, Cleverley missed one easy chance and because of this he had a "shocker"? It was a shocking miss to be fair, but his performance overall was pretty much typical Cleverley...and I actually think that role suits him if the rest of the team is functioning properly.
All of the problems were occuring behind him. The defenders never had options on the ball unless Gerrard was showing for it. When they were bringing it up the pitch to open up options themselves, their distribution was shocking. Lampard wasn't doing his job. Milner kept running inside the fullback when Ukraine were in possession (was he told to do this in order to keep tabs on something, because if not, what the feck?). Several times Ukraine seemed to take Johnson out of the equation completely by just running up the pitch slightly faster than him. Same with Jagielka.
As far as I can see, Cleverley missed one easy chance and because of this he had a "shocker"? It was a shocking miss to be fair, but his performance overall was pretty much typical Cleverley...and I actually think that role suits him if the rest of the team is functioning properly.
One thing about Cleverley that impresses me is the fact that he gets these goal scoring opportunities fairly often. I think he's been learning from Scholesy, he seems good at timing his runs and getting involved in the attack at the right place at the right times. Sure his finishing could use some work, but it's certainly encouraging that he's getting these chances in the first place.
Based on what exactly? The fact that he's had several very good performances playing in a midfield 2 and maybe 1 bad hour against Southampton.
Clev's misses are a separate issue to where he should play. Any top level player will be expected to do better with the first couple of chances he had but that's separate to the argument about his quality as a midfielder.
He is able to take up good attacking positions because those are the places he tries to pass the ball. Watch any game of Cleverely closely when he's in centre midfield and you will see him hit those areas often.
Besides the misses what we saw tonight was a normal Cleverely performance. Took the ball, shielded it, moved it, looked for space. All things IMO more suited to playing centre midfield than off the front. Tom Cleverley is a midfielder why 1st Pearce and now Hodgson insist on trying to make him something else confuses me. The manager who works with him most, Sir Alex, sees him as a centre midfielder this is surely an indication of something, no?
I'm not going to judge him as I haven't seen the full match (and will not be watching it).
But what's with the finishing ability of the 2 players who've made the step up from our academy? Welbeck's finishing was nothing short of horrible last season (I counted well over 10-15 opportunities consecutively, where he failed to put the ball in with only the keeper to beat, and that was a consistent problem), and Cleverley's another lad who seemingly can't get it in from good opportunities.
Now, I'm not expecting them to be a patch on RvP or anything, but he literally would've put in 70%+ of the 20-25 consecutive chances they've fecked up.
But what's with the finishing ability of the 2 players who've made the step up from our academy? Welbeck's finishing was nothing short of horrible last season (I counted well over 10-15 opportunities consecutively, where he failed to put the ball in with only the keeper to beat, and that was a consistent problem), and Cleverley's another lad who seemingly can't get it in from good opportunities.
Now, I'm not expecting them to be a patch on RvP or anything, but he literally would've put in 70%+ of the 20-25 consecutive chances they've fecked up.
Yeah, RVP has always been an amazing finisher, scoring from 70% of chances, and there's no chance of our lads improving.
Christ.
No i didn't say that.
I'm saying that in the consecutive chances they had, RvP would've converted around 18/25, but they hadn't converted any of those consecutive ones (So you can't say 'but Rooney would've converted 5/10 that RvP MISSED as it's consecutive).
Simply said, even at their age (and level), they should be putting away more of their chances. It's a shocking amount of chances they've missed, and what I really hate is when people think it's okay that a midfielder/striker are failing to finish chances that most midfielders / strikers would bury time and time again.
I frequently see the mid table team midfielders burying these chances FAR better than our Cleverley, and same with welbeck (midfielders with better finishing). That's not acceptable IMO. These players play for the best club in the league.
RvP especially, and Rooney are amazing finishers. But these lads are faring worse in that department compared to midfielders aged 24-25 too.
As Rooney and Ronaldo proved, finishing will improve as you grow more mature. I've seen them squander many chances when they were young but now both of them are amongst the best finishers in the world.
I think its crazy the stick that Cleverly is getting. He's played what, 13 odd games for the United first team isn't it? He's been promoted so fast to the England team and the media as well as Hodgson has overhyped him like mad. He's young and only just started for goodness sake.
I thought he showed immense presence of mind in his position, was always after the ball, always looking for ways to link to the front line, was typically a little erratic with the chances he had (like so many younsters before him in an England shirt). He will learn so much from these games, learn from people like Gerrard and Lampard and develope into a very important member of the England and United team. His enthusiasm and determination is pure united. I'm excited about his prospects.
I thought he showed immense presence of mind in his position, was always after the ball, always looking for ways to link to the front line, was typically a little erratic with the chances he had (like so many younsters before him in an England shirt). He will learn so much from these games, learn from people like Gerrard and Lampard and develope into a very important member of the England and United team. His enthusiasm and determination is pure united. I'm excited about his prospects.
If your national coach says your like Fabregas, either you play like him, or drown.
At least he got into scoring position and managed to get off a shot, unlike some England players last night.
What on earth does that mean? You think Cleverley is going out there doing his Fabregas impression because of a comment Hodgson made? And if he doesn't, he's out?
No, i thought it was obvious that either you play like him i.e. Really fecking good, or you're a failure.
Of course he's feckin not trying to play the same 'style' he's Tom Cleverley, not Cesc Fabregas.
Basically, I was saying, if someone compares you to a great player, you're either going to make the hype, or more likely, flounder and sink because it's frankly ridiculous to suggest he's anywhere near that level.
You're comparing Welbeck and Cleverley to RVP and random 25 year old midfielders as regards finishing, and you don't see a flaw in that?
To be honest I was encouraged by what I saw from Cleverley, he needs to put the finishing touches to his game but that I think will come through playing. If Davis hadn't crocked him last season, he'd already be there, right now he is still 12 months shy of football and it shows through in his finishing because he is snatching at chances.
Welbeck is a similar case although because he is a forward it is even more frustrating because that is his job. Both players are getting better and better, it's not like a Walcott situation. Give them some more time and they will be fine.
Welbeck is a similar case although because he is a forward it is even more frustrating because that is his job. Both players are getting better and better, it's not like a Walcott situation. Give them some more time and they will be fine.
You're comparing Welbeck and Cleverley to RVP and random 25 year old midfielders as regards finishing, and you don't see a flaw in that?
It's lovely how people focus on the comparisons, when it's clear I'm saying their finishing is quite poor compared to any standards (non defenders / defensive midfielders). Ought I include goalkeepers, managers and the like, so that you won't focus on those players as well...? I'm making my point, yet you ignore that mainly and focus on an example. His finishing is poor, and I was merely making an observation that the poorer finishers in our team, compared to the expectations of their position, are 2 graduates - Perhaps the club ought to focus more on it, because I'm already sighing as soon as they take a shot. (No, I am not literally sighing as they take a shot).
When was that?
So if someone says you could be like a fantastic player, and you don't play fantastic football, people won't think you're fantastic? Naturally, I'm sure everyone's aware of that.
But really that's not what happened, Hodgson was saying Cleverley plays the same role as Cleverley, he wasn't saying that Cleverley is or is going to become a player of his quality.
Flounder and sink sounds like Hodgson's type of football, so if Cleverley doesn't become this fantastic international star, he may well be an England fixture anyway. Look at Milner.
Well I'd have fecked them both off ages ago if we had any decent, fit midfielders in reserve other than Carrick. I only saw 45 minutes last night so it's hard to comment on this particular match, but Gerrards penchant for the long ball is so fecking annoying I'd move him out before Lampard. Or at least move him forward. The amount of times Cleverley was in space last night only for the ball to be pinged pointlessly into Defoe was infuriating as ever.
I'm one of those who thought Cleverley was very good yesterday, especially in the first half where he was by far the best English player. His misses are going to make the headlines: the first one was shocking, no two ways about it, the second one wasn't as terrible as it will be made out, the ball was slightly behind him with a small rebound just before the kick, very had to get that right, and the third chance, where he smashed the ball against the post, showed a very good first touch and good speed of execution. Shame it didn't go in.
But altogether, he worked his socks off; he was constantly dropping deep to offer solutions to the defenders, trying to move the ball swiftly, trying to get the game flowing, but there were hardly any decent options around him, very little movement, and not enough technical quality to actually play like you could see he wanted to. He's not a real 10, and his movement showed that (he was often much deeper than he 'should' have been), but still managed to get himself into decent positions.
It was a bit of a mistake, in my opinion, to take him off on the 60 minute mark from a tactical point of view (I'm glad he came off for half an hour as a Utd fan), Lampard was being completely useless in the system and probably wouldn't have been missed had he been subbed.
Anyway, the real question is can he perform for a whole season, be consistently good, and start scoring a few? The last bit doesn't really worry me, finishing comes with experience and age (for those who aren't naturally gifted with top class finishing).
But altogether, he worked his socks off; he was constantly dropping deep to offer solutions to the defenders, trying to move the ball swiftly, trying to get the game flowing, but there were hardly any decent options around him, very little movement, and not enough technical quality to actually play like you could see he wanted to. He's not a real 10, and his movement showed that (he was often much deeper than he 'should' have been), but still managed to get himself into decent positions.
It was a bit of a mistake, in my opinion, to take him off on the 60 minute mark from a tactical point of view (I'm glad he came off for half an hour as a Utd fan), Lampard was being completely useless in the system and probably wouldn't have been missed had he been subbed.
Anyway, the real question is can he perform for a whole season, be consistently good, and start scoring a few? The last bit doesn't really worry me, finishing comes with experience and age (for those who aren't naturally gifted with top class finishing).
Like I said last night, it was a mixed bag.
He was very lively, got into some great positions and worked the ball well but he was also sloppier than he usually is and obviously missed some great chances.
You could say it's harsh to judge someone on something like that but at the end of the day that's football. Football is about winning. You don't win if you don't score.
It was unbelieveable obvious Woy would take him off though. That was so frustrating. Espcially with the likes of Lampard still being allowed to stroll around the pitch being completely anonymous.
He was very lively, got into some great positions and worked the ball well but he was also sloppier than he usually is and obviously missed some great chances.
You could say it's harsh to judge someone on something like that but at the end of the day that's football. Football is about winning. You don't win if you don't score.
It was unbelieveable obvious Woy would take him off though. That was so frustrating. Espcially with the likes of Lampard still being allowed to stroll around the pitch being completely anonymous.
If you want me to go through match by match, I'm not going to - I'd rather you refreshed your own memory; I certainly was vaguely counting; hence saying 10-15 (consecutive) for him. But that's on the low side - Fact is, he's missing PLENTY and if you and other lads proud to see a local lad, failing to acknowledge this chronic problem in a striker. Another 2 chances went a begging today in the English match. The one on the post from 8 yards, and another that won the penalty; if the lads hands hadn't blocked the ball, no-one was ever going to finish the kick he used to try evade it (It was far too heavy for himself to get it, for example). Cleverley too has missed heaps.
If you wanna start counting now, do so, but if he does score anytime soon, it'll be going against the grain in terms of converting chances - I want to be proved wrong but last season at least, he should've got 20+ goals easily.
There's a reason why Rooney scored 34 goals last season playing behind him. He finished the multitude of chances given to the strikers. Discount the penalties even - Welbeck played further up front, and was given more chances than Rooney, yet he converted at least 20-23 non Penalty goals, and Welbeck around 9. Cleverley too was guilty of missing many - The finishing on display for whole matches was at times what I'd expect from Paddy, hence I reckon RvP will get at least 30 goals in all comps for us, and same for Rooney if he's playing a lot of games (not injured/on bench).
Both will get massively great goals / minute ratios, anyways
Cleverley's performance last night was that of a typical new kid on the block trying too hard to impress, and doing so scuffed a chance. Once established, composure will come into his play and goals follow.
One of the positives of his performance last night was his intelligence to be in the right places, and be in a position to score.
One of the positives of his performance last night was his intelligence to be in the right places, and be in a position to score.
Aye. He's been very unlucky in front of goal all Summer. Strikes me as someone perhaps overthinking it.
Jesus, he wasn't very good at all. The whole team were poor and Cleverley was no better. Ignoring the misses he lost the ball and was bullied by Tymoschuk, in the first half it directly led to Ukraine having a chance.
I don't think clev was bad yesterday and certainly deserved to stay on ahead of Milner and lamps. He's been pretty unlucky with a lot if his goal attempts for us and England but then eventually do you stop saying its being unlucky or main like Suarez he's got the right movement etc but just not that clinical finish. Hard to say, he needs to get a goal and then we can see from there if it gives him te confidence to get more.
I think though atm he's a bit stuck positionally. He's sort of in between a midfielder and an attacking mid. Doesnt have the discipline to excel in the middle atm nor seemingly the finishing to be a number 10/ am. He needs
more experience but I think it will be tough going from a deeper role which he'll play with us to an attacking role with England. Unfortunately for him as well I can see Rooney coming in, in place of him in upfront and a gerrard clev partnership in the middle would probably be more disastrous than lamps and gerrard, songs may find himself out of the team unless he really puts in some good displays for us.
I think though atm he's a bit stuck positionally. He's sort of in between a midfielder and an attacking mid. Doesnt have the discipline to excel in the middle atm nor seemingly the finishing to be a number 10/ am. He needs
more experience but I think it will be tough going from a deeper role which he'll play with us to an attacking role with England. Unfortunately for him as well I can see Rooney coming in, in place of him in upfront and a gerrard clev partnership in the middle would probably be more disastrous than lamps and gerrard, songs may find himself out of the team unless he really puts in some good displays for us.
Bullied? Was he feck. I know what instance you're talking about though, where Tymoschuk nipped in from behind and robbed the ball. That was poor from Cleverley. It was the only time in the game it happened though. In fact, I think that was the only time Tymoschuk took the ball from him.
Cleverley didn't have a great game but was England's best player, he missed a sitter which only arose because someone else missed a sitter. He showed no fear, he kept showing for the ball and tried to introduce some rhythm to the England play. The likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Milner were peripheral, Lampard wasn't too bad but he failed to control the game as you'd expect a senior player to. Gerrard isn't tactically adept enough for the deeper role, Milner is shit and Oxlade-Chamberlain is too raw. It's typically English to pick on Cleverley but anyone who's followed his career would know he does have goals in him and it's purely a confidence issue right now.
He played well. Yes he should have scored but he represents what England were trying to do before England got sloppy. It's easy to critisize but we're still talking about an inexperienced player who missed most of last season.
Personally, i'd rather he missed those chances for England than United. I'm sure the goals will come eventually, he just seems to be going through a phase where nothings going in. The fact is, he could easily be on 5/6 England goals right now..but he's not.
It would be silly to blame him considering he's one of the new generation coming through and looks likely to be a key player going into qualification...
Personally, i'd rather he missed those chances for England than United. I'm sure the goals will come eventually, he just seems to be going through a phase where nothings going in. The fact is, he could easily be on 5/6 England goals right now..but he's not.
It would be silly to blame him considering he's one of the new generation coming through and looks likely to be a key player going into qualification...
I see Cleverley's future as a central midfield. I agree that he's stuck in between in a way because he's clearly attack minded but doesn't have the end product/goal threat to rely on as a proper no. 10. I think he needs to work on the defensive side of his game and try and emulate someone like Modric., someone who keeps things ticking over by linking up play and helps out defensively as well.
He also gave the ball away which directly led to a fast break and goal, if you forgot.
His movement is bang on, really good. Obviously he doesn't bring as much ability on the ball as Iniesta but Iniesta has never scored more than 9 goals in a season for Barcelona, Cleverley will thrive in the right system, the English shape was all over the place. I think Cleverley is better deeper where he can kind of control the tempo, something which Gerrard and Lampard were horrendous at last night. Once the maturity comes with his playing experience I think Cleverley will become a classy midfielder, still a way to go yet.
I didn't forget because I didn't see it. I went to have a shit.
That's a harsh one! He received the ball in a difficult position, and was wrestled off it by a good defensive move by the Ukrainian player. However that should never have led to a goal, the defence was all over the place, we had no shape and the guy was given all license to square up his shot. Very harsh of you to attribute it in any way to Cleverley, in my opinion.
EDIT: I'm getting things mixed up: did that actually lead to the goal? I thought it was Lescott's crap pass that hit a player who was on the ground who then passed it around, that led to the goal.
EDIT: I'm getting things mixed up: did that actually lead to the goal? I thought it was Lescott's crap pass that hit a player who was on the ground who then passed it around, that led to the goal.
Who? Cleverley? No he didn't. It was Lescott that gave the ball away.
Kagawa was castigated here, for less. The pass being given to him by Cleverley, and Kagawa had literally 0 time to get it, before it was robbed, yet he got the blame.
People here can't have it both ways; both players are to blame - the passer if the player is put under severe immediate pressure and the robbed player for getting robbed, however in this case Cleverley had more time than he gave to Shinji against Soton.
Yeah I edited my post cos that's how I remember the goal, Lescott tried a stupid pass that hit a guy who was on the ground.
But I do recall an instance when Cleverley received a ball halfway in their side of the pitch, was wrestled off it, and that led to a counter attack which was mostly possible cos our defence was all over the place and Johnson was nowhere to be found.
But I do recall an instance when Cleverley received a ball halfway in their side of the pitch, was wrestled off it, and that led to a counter attack which was mostly possible cos our defence was all over the place and Johnson was nowhere to be found.
fecking hell, you're on about the Southampton game. We're all talking about last night.
I also happen to think he is a midfielder, and not a makeshift attacker - the role England made him play.
- Status