Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

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When the game is flowing and there's space to run into, Wilshere is fantastic at driving with the ball. However when the game gets tight, he stops taking players on. That's when taking people on is most valuable if you ask me.

Iniesta at least will drive on with the ball regardless of what's in front of him, and that's what makes him so valuable. Not to mention the fact Iniesta averages a lot more goals than Wilshere regardless (3x as many, that's the difference between a RVP and a Kevin Doyle).

Edit: And Modric finished right at the top end of chances created, it's not his fault his strikers were terrible.
 
Obviously Iniesta is a better player, it was just an example. The point was that a midfielder, especially a 19/20 year old, shouldn't be judged on their goals/assists. Iniesta certainly doesn't register a lot of goals at all, never has.
 
Wilshere as a talent has been over-rated on the Caf. He had a great match against Barcelona but somehow that was used as a clear evidence that he'll be world class in future.
 
ICIP said:
I'm not judging him solely on that, but it definitely comes into the discussion.
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What are Barry's and Rodwell's assist/goal stats?

KM said:
Wilshere as a talent has been over-rated on the Caf. He had a great match against Barcelona but somehow that was used as a clear evidence that he'll be world class in future.
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That, or possibly the fact that he was excellent over an entire season where he played 39 games, was voted Arsenal's PotY and PL-YPotY and had 5 caps for England. He was also cited as a potential superstar before he ever even played for Arsenal, as I recall. It certainly wasn't because of one game.
 
KM said:
Wilshere as a talent has been over-rated on the Caf. He had a great match against Barcelona but somehow that was used as a clear evidence that he'll be world class in future.
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Nah, I'm a believer alright. The potential to be a great player is there. But theres potential to be yet another young player who pissed it all away as well of course.
 
ICIP said:
Rodwell's slightly better (every 9 games), Barry's significantly better (every 6 games).

But both are far superior defensively.
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Well you'd expect Barry to be, he's 10 years older after all. Rodwell? Not really. Similar stats too.

Somehow I reckon if Rodwell hadn't signed for your club that you wouldn't be expressing these opinions.

Anyway, your list was a joke.
 
Cina said:
That, or possibly the fact that he was excellent over an entire season where he played 39 games, was voted Arsenal's PotY and PL-YPotY and had 5 caps for England. He was also cited as a potential superstar before he ever even played for Arsenal, as I recall. It certainly wasn't because of one game.
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Jermaine Jenas was great in one season for Newcastle United as well, is he a world class midfielder aswell?

Anyway from what I've seen of him, no doubt he's got the potential to be a very good midfielder but I don't think he has the potential to be world class and is certainly over-hyped.

It's difficult to tell from young players as Ramsey once looked a very good talent now now he doesn't do enough to justify that. Let's hope the lad comes back from his injury nightmare though.
 
KM said:
Jermaine Jenas was great in one season for Newcastle United as well, is he a world class midfielder aswell?

Anyway from what I've seen of him, no doubt he's got the potential to be a very good midfielder but I don't think he has the potential to be world class and is certainly over-hyped.

It's difficult to tell from young players as Ramsey once looked a very good talent now now he doesn't do enough to justify that. Let's hope the lad comes back from his injury nightmare though.
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Hang on now, nobody said he was world class, but it's clear the potential is there to be a top player (I hate the term world class), how else are we supposed to judge that other than on the games he's played? You say people overrate Wilshire, but did you see what everyone said about Cleverley on here (three years older) after five games last season? He's ridiculously overrated sometimes.

We can never just flat out say a player will become great, obviously, because injuries or career choices can end up preventing that, what we can do is assess how talented they are and how potentially good they can be, and personally, from what I've seen, it's pretty damn clear that Wilshire is a more talented player than Cleverley is, and therefore is the more likely of the two to become a great player, especially as Cleverley is a few years older and actually has played only a third of the games Wilshire has for his club.
 
Cina said:
Hang on now, nobody said he was world class, but it's clear the potential is there to be a top player (I hate the term world class), how else are we supposed to judge that other than on the games he's played? You say people overrate Wilshire, but did you see what everyone said about Cleverley on here (three years older) after five games last season? He's ridiculously overrated sometimes.

We can never just flat out say a player will become great, obviously, because injuries or career choices can end up preventing that, what we can do is assess how talented they are and how potentially good they can be, and personally, from what I've seen, it's pretty damn clear that Wilshire is a more talented player than Cleverley is, and therefore is the more likely of the two to become a great player, especially as Cleverley is a few years older and actually has played only a third of the games Wilshire has for his club.
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All that "Cleverley is overrated" stuff is getting on my tits now, people've been using it since the last season despite of him getting injured for majority of last season and him doing well whenever he was given the chance.

Regarding Wilshere, let's see what he has the potential to do so. For me I'm not convinced about him and don't think he'll be a top, top player.
 
He is overrated though, just like pretty much every young player at our club who makes a few impressive appearances.
 
Cina said:
He is overrated though, just like pretty much every young player at our club who makes a few impressive appearances.
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Well you've a habit of underrating United players(except of Nani ofcourse), so let's leave it at that on the if Cleverley is overrated or not
 
Andrew~ said:
Yeah, I like Rodwell a lot. Finding young players, especially in England, who have the natural inclination and tactical awareness and discipline to play as a defensive midfielder is very rare. I'd say to get a good idea of what I like about him, is to imagine if Carrick added physicality to his game. He's not quite as offensively minded, but he can contribute with goals and assists too.

Hopefully the midfield at the next World cup will be all three with Cleverly as the attacking mid. So good! :drool:
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Fair enough, I don't think he has the talent Wilshere has, better athlete no doubt but don't think he's got the ability/intelligence, could still be a very good player.

Wilshere is just one of those players who just has something to his game that makes him stand out as a real talent. He's got the ability, work rate and some fight in him. I dunno how much his injuries will have affected him but I really think the talent is there for him to become the heart of the England team in the way Scholes should have. Genuinely one of those players that I wish was ours. Clev could become a great player but at 23 he's still only really starting out. Wilshere when he's back and if he picks up where he left off could well be a star by the time he's 23.
 
KM said:
Wilshere as a talent has been over-rated on the Caf. He had a great match against Barcelona but somehow that was used as a clear evidence that he'll be world class in future.
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Naah, the talent is quite clearly there. He was very good in that match but thats not the only thing, he had a very good season at Arsenal. Its just a shame he missed the entire last season.

Anyways, its just the way with some people, they go over the top when they see a young talented player. It happened with Wilshere just like it happens with Cleverley and Welbeck on here. One cannot say Wilshere is overrated on this board without saying the same about the other 2 really.
 
Going a bit off topic, but the worry with Wilshere is off-field problems getting in the way of him fulfilling his potential. He's got rid of his twitter, which is one step towards getting away from all of the rubbish that surrounds young English players. Talent-wise, he has it all.
 
charleysurf said:
That's the way it is. In England anyway. But it would be foolish to deny that scoring lots of goals, no matter how scruffy, is a useful talent.
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:lol: Only on here could goalscoring be looked down upon. Is everyone familiar with the scoring system in football?
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
I must have imagined the 11 in 33 that he got at Watford then.
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Yeah, but he played a far more advanced role, which he could do, as he was arguably above that level. He got pushed out wide for Wigan quite a lot, rather that being played centrally, hence the lack of goals. Watch where he plays for United, he rarely ventures into the box. Maybe he isn't fit enough, maybe he doesn't trust himself to venture so far forward, or maybe Fergie's told him not, who knows? What we do know though is that he can score goals, but by God, not if it's from outside the area.

ICIP said:
What do people think Wilshere excels at exactly?
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His composure's one. He'll always take the ball and keep play ticking over. When you've got the best pressing team in the world on your case and you can keep your head completely, as a teenager? There's clearly something there. Plus, as has been mentioned, the individual awards. Didn't he win their player of the season in a team with Fabregas, Nasri, RVP and Vermaelen? He was clearly doing something right.
 
ICIP said:
What do people think Wilshere excels at exactly?
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Good brain and attitude for start, having put in some really good performances against Chelsea, Barcelona etc showing he wasn't overawed by the situation at 19-20 years old. Good movement on and off the ball to create angles. Plays with his head up a la Modric, Silva to move away from 2-3 pressing players at a time. He's like a little Spaniard with a bit of Scott Parkers lionhearted, braveheart, sex face will to win.
 
KanieKaned said:
You don't know that no more than any of us, things may go pear shaped on him at some point and his career could nose dive but then again, with a shit load of dedication to becoming the best he can be he could turn into a superb little midfielder and possibly not far off the ninja himself.

Do us a favour and read your crystal ball there and give us the euro millions winning numbers for next Friday while your at it.
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Heh, just saw this response now. Definitely not overrated on here at all.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Good brain and attitude for start, having put in some really good performances against Chelsea, Barcelona etc showing he wasn't overawed by the situation at 19-20 years old. Good movement on and off the ball to create angles. Plays with his head up a la Modric, Silva to move away from 2-3 pressing players at a time. He's like a little Spaniard with a bit of Scott Parkers lionhearted, braveheart, sex face will to win.
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I agree with this gentleman.
 
Looks like he is starting behind Defoe today a la Scholes prior to 2006.
 
I thought Gerrard would be supporting Defoe.

I've only seen Cleverley a few times for England.
 
Solius said:
Not a natural goalscorer our Tom is he?
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I dunno. He's had a bit of bad luck in front of goal recently. Might just be over thinking as a result.


Hopefully....
 
Not looking forward to reading the papers tomorrow.
 
Young Tom is not having the best of nights.

If we lose this game the media will rip him a new asshole.
 
He's having a horror first half.
 
He's not a goal scorer. Not yet at least. It's unfair to play him so far forward and expect goals.
 
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