Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

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akash02 said:
Cleverley started plenty of games next to Carrick in a 2 man CM including some of the big games (cit and arsenal of the top of my head). So in addition to talking shit you have also resorted to making up things.

He's good enough as a squad player.
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I'm talking shit?

You said we won the league the season before last ffs! :wenger:

Those games you mentioned, we never play 442 against them. It maybe that way on paper, but its always 433 when the game starts. You'd need to be braindead to play Cleverley in a 2 man CM against top-class opposition!

Is Cleverley good enough as a squad player in City's team or a top-class European team challenging for Champions League glory?

Your answer is a no i'd say - it should be anyway. Because thats the level of players we need to get close to winning again - domestically & on the European front!
 
Red Hand Devil said:
I've heard enough from opposition mid-fielders sayin they dont fear OT anymore. The most important thing for each & every player is to win your own personal battle. Opposition CM players havent feared playin against Cleverely - thats pretty evident if you've watched our games at OT this season.

Rossi & Forlan moved on because they couldnt cope with the league or the pressure playin for United!

Define Cleverley's technique by the way? This should be interesting :p
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Cleverley has very good body shape when receiving the ball. Despite the fact he plays a lot of balls sideways his body shape when receiving is to receive with a positive touch, meaning on the receive he is setting up to go forward virtually every time. He has a nice touch when receiving on the half turn. Despite the myths in here he has a good long and short ball game. Off the ball he is superb. He knows exactly when to hold his position and keep a defender out of a passing channel and he knows exactly when to move and drag a defender with him. Its easy to see when he is doing either of the two if you watch his head movements relative to his body position. He is continually asking for the ball which is another one of those things that is amusing when you see people saying he hides. People are probably being confused with him holding a position to keep a defender from shutting down anothers passing or dribbling space. Again its really easy to spot the difference between the two actions if you watch his head movement and body language. Its quite clear to see. He is a very good pass and move player.

The point I have been trying unsuccessfully to get across is that Cleverley isnt the world class midfielder we want and need but he absolutely isnt anywhere near as bad as he is made out to be. What is happening in here is people are looking and waiting for any mistake he makes however they are either ignoring or simply dont see or understand the good things he is doing. Against Norwich for example he created a lot of space for Kagawa to move into with his off the ball movement and also was trying to cover Kagawa's wide spaces when we lost possession. Im not criticising Kagawa here, he is the sort of player who needs a certain amount of freedom to operate and Cleverley was helping give him that freedom. Very easy to see this and very clear if people actually look for it rather than just hunt for his mistakes.

I would love to see some of those in here who call him a coward or claim he hides in games say those things face to face with Fergie. Fergies reaction to that would be hilarious to watch. Basically in my opinion those who think he is a coward or hides have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
 
Red Hand Devil said:
I'm talking shit?

You said we won the league the season before last ffs! :wenger:

Those games you mentioned, we never play 442 against them. It maybe that way on paper, but its always 433 when the game starts. You'd need to be braindead to play Cleverley in a 2 man CM against top-class opposition!

Is Cleverley good enough as a squad player in City's team or a top-class European team challenging for Champions League glory?

Your answer is a no i'd say - it should be anyway. Because thats the level of players we need to get close to winning again - domestically & on the European front!
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I obviously counted this season when i said that.

So when I point out that he played in a 2 man midfield you say it wasn't a 2 man midfield after all. I am done with your drunken ramblings and I really couldn't give a shit whether he is or isn't good enough for City. He's good enough as a squad player for us, that's all that matters.
 
No-one's sayin they hate Cleverley whatsoever. Many are just sayin he's not United standard - even as a squad player (in my opinion). We need as close to an equal quality player to replace a member of the preferred 1st 11... Like for like as best we can. Thats becoming the standard with all these sugar-daddy clubs at the moment & its sickening.

The academy is where every club should be looking to, but thats becoming increasing harder due to the depth of squads our opposition have!
 
Red Hand Devil said:
We all love our home-growns, but if they're useless & not United class at 25+ years old - whats the point keeping them man?!

Fellaini has so much more to his game than Cleverly. Fellaini isnt great thats for sure, but he's not a shrinkin violet & gives the opposition something to think about. Opposition players laugh when they see Cleverly's name on the teamsheet. They laugh too when they see Fellaini's, but they know they're in for a tougher match than havin to play against Cleverly.

Look at how many players that have left the club that were deemed long-termers in the team many years before. Thats the way all teams operate - well the big clubs more importantly. You cut your losses if you want success - not accolades about your academy coming through the ranks into the first team.

Gibson was a better player than Cleverly & he had a lethal shot on him, but he wasnt United class - same as Cleverly, Richardson, Rossi, O'Shea, Brown, Phil Neville, Forlan & many more!
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Yep, and that is when they will receive an elbow from him. Don't know what else he gives them to think about. Maybe at Everton where they could hoof the ball to him and he could then get some goals. But no top club is going to play him as a 10.

We have to disagree here, fair enough. But for me Cleverley is technically better, has more potential, can keep possesion, can pass the ball and is not always a red card to happen. He is also a couple of years younger, oh and btw didn't cost us anything and is earning half as much in wages as Fellaini. Ppl can say all they want that the fee is not Fellaini's fault, but I don't care. Fact is that we paid that fee and he is useless. After all it was also not Moyes' fault that he was out of his depth. Moyes worked hard for sure and was just not good enough for us, and that's all that matters for me. Not Moyes' fault that he was out of his depth, but still he has to take the blame anyway and deal with it. Same for me with Fellaini.

I am hardly saying Cleverley is great, and being better than Fellaini doesn't make him great either, but I will take it until we get some quality midfielders and a new manager who might or might not be willing to work with Cleverley.
 
akash02 said:
I obviously counted this season when i said that.

So when I point out that he played in a 2 man midfield you say it wasn't a 2 man midfield after all. I am done with your drunken ramblings and I really couldn't give a shit whether he is or isn't good enough for City. He's good enough as a squad player for us, that's all that matters.
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Wtf are you on about? I'm not drunk!

Whatever dude. Its all about opinions on here, but you have to resort mud-slinging etc.. No need for it!

If you cant handle a debate without being petulant - dont get involved...
 
A move to Everton would be a good career move, in my opinion. Osman is ageing, he is a good player in his own right, he'll suit the way Martinez likes to play, and most importantly, he'll get a new lease of life, some confidence, and improve as a player with the added game time. I do like Tom, but both he and United need to improve, and I don't think he'll lose out if he does move.
 
Kag said:
A move to Everton would be a good career move, in my opinion. Osman is ageing, he is a good player in his own right, he'll suit the way Martinez likes to play, and most importantly, he'll get a new lease of life, some confidence, and improve as a player with the added game time. I do like Tom, but both he and United need to improve, and I don't think he'll lose out if he does move.
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Yeah, Everton would be perfect for him under Martinez. We do need someone thats top class, probably 2 players. I like Cleverley and would rather he be a big fish in a smaller pond than the small fish in our big pond.
 
Kag said:
A move to Everton would be a good career move, in my opinion. Osman is ageing, he is a good player in his own right, he'll suit the way Martinez likes to play, and most importantly, he'll get a new lease of life, some confidence, and improve as a player with the added game time. I do like Tom, but both he and United need to improve, and I don't think he'll lose out if he does move.
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Agreed, I want him to have a career with us but at the moment, for both hi and the club, it might be best to move on.
 
He is a slow thinker, not progressive enough in his passing and just looks lacking in confidence. He was not always like this, he used to be better I think but he had regressed now.

Can he go through a similar metamorphosis as Fletcher did? Doubt it.
 
Red Hand Devil said:
Thats a pretty shit selection of CM's for a club of our stature. Depressing even...

Just endorses my point that we need atleast 4 new CM's - the sooner the better!
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Carrick and Fletcher are on their last legs. Cleverly is a squad player...but tbf to him...under a better manager he may show the confidence and ability he showed when he first burst on to the scene. Fellani....I will not say is useless. He has had some useful matches. But is he what we need? Van Gaal will give him a full season to see what he can get out him.....

EDIT: I think we need a top DM and a top creative type player. Carvalho and Kroos?

lets not forget we have a couple of good prospects from our youth sides too.
 
Red Dreams said:
Carrick and Fletcher are on their last legs. Cleverly is a squad player...but tbf to him...under a better manager he may show the confidence and ability he showed when he first burst on to the scene. Fellani....I will not say is useless. He has had some useful matches. But is he what we need? Van Gaal will give him a full season to see what he can get out him.....

EDIT: I think we need a top DM and a top creative type player. Carvalho and Kroos?

lets not forget we have a couple of good prospects from our youth sides too.
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I'm not so sure about your point about Carrick to be honest man. I know what you're sayin of course, but he's still our best CM by a country mile. Albeit, he needs to get his mojo back & Moyes going could just be that ignition. Thought he played decent enough yest & i seen him on occasions harassing the opposition - something i havent seen all season. With the right support in CM - Carrick can be excellent again. He's 32/33 so he doesnt have the stamina to run the show in CM in every game & he plays every game too, which must take its toll..

I hold my breath on Cleverley, but i'm not a stubborn prick who just sticks to his guns even though i've been proved wrong. If the new manager can get Cleverley back to the form he showed against City in the 2nd half in the Community Shield - then i'd be delighted. That was potential fulfilled that we all hoped for, but that was 3 years ago now & he's sadly regressed since that.

You're a man after me own heart with your wishlist. Carvalho & Kroos would be absolutely fantastic man. I'm a greedy fecker in terms of player wishlists though, so i'd love Pogba & Gundogan also.. That would be our CM set for many years to come :drool: Dreamland i know :D

We've some great prospects in the youth ranks alright. I like the look of Pereira & he should not be goin on loan in my opinion. They way Adnans come through under Moyes is the way to go. Wilson & Varela are also great prospects too & same again - feck farming them out. That hasnt worked well for us in the past. They'll learn more stayin at United in my opinion - they just need to be blooded & i hope Giggsy bloods them sometime in remaining games. I dont think he will though, because he's loyal to his team-mates & they're all playin for their futures now..
 
No one can really blame him for the performance yesterday. Yes it wasn't up to the mark but thats only because he hasn't played much in the last three months. No confidence and no match fitness equals bad touches and misplaces passes. With that being said, I don't think he can ever be more than a squad player for us because he doesn't have the drive or the desire to just take over a game like Scholesy did. He is more of a passenger.
 
Red Dreams said:
Pearson...I have heard a lot about him.

Hope you are right about Carrick. I like him...he has had a poor season overall...but that could be because of Moyes tactics more than anything.
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Ah yeah, forgot about him. He's a great wee player man. Great engine & is all over the pitch - he just floats around everywhere. Tidy passer & has good pace. Always wants the ball & rarely gives it away more importantly. Looks like a lad full of confidence & isnt be fazed whatsover. 18/19 years old but he's got a good physique for a small lad at that age.

Thanks for the reminder. Stupid of me to forget that lad. CM is an area where we've seen it all before in the youths & nothing came about, so i always hold reservation about championing the next Scholesy - but he has similar qualities. Not the passing ability just yet, but composure, touch, control & decision-makin are very similar to what Scholesy had as a teen & we must not forget that Scholesy was a Striker originally, it was only when Fergie realised we had a CM maestro on our hands that his career changed dramatically. Pearsons been playin that role already, so there's much to be excited about in all honesty - without gettin too carried away of course!

You should check him out. I'm sure there's youtubes of him. His first names Ben!

He's some mop of hair on him too - ala that cnut Harry Stiles - which is the only downside..
 
Red Hand Devil said:
Ah yeah, forgot about him. He's a great wee player man. Great engine & is all over the pitch - he just floats around everywhere. Tidy passer & has good pace. Always wants the ball & rarely gives it away more importantly. Looks like a lad full of confidence & isnt be fazed whatsover. 18/19 years old but he's got a good physique for a small lad at that age.

Thanks for the reminder. Stupid of me to forget that lad. CM is an area where we've seen it all before in the youths & nothing came about, so i always hold reservation about championing the next Scholesy - but he has similar qualities. Not the passing ability just yet, but composure, touch, control & decision-makin are very similar to what Scholesy had as a teen & we must not forget that Scholesy was a Striker originally, it was only when Fergie realised we had a CM maestro on our hands that his career changed dramatically. Pearsons been playin that role already, so there's much to be excited about in all honesty - without gettin too carried away of course!

You should check him out. I'm sure there's youtubes of him. His first names Ben!

He's some mop of hair on him too - ala that cnut Harry Stiles - which is the only downside..
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The problem I have with Ben Pearsons is that he does pretty much everything that Cleverley gets slagged off for doing. Pearsons passes sideways a lot more than Cleverley does for example but people appear to be upping Pearsons.
 
Ben Pearson has been playing in quite a restricted role this season. He is certainly no Scholes but has a good all-around game. Good tenacity and has shown good tactical ability. He still has a way to go and I have high hopes for him but no point comparing him to Cleverley yet.
 
Red Hand Devil said:
:lol: Nice one :lol:
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Well there isn't. One just became a regular in the reserves half way through the season where as the other one around 150 first team appearances in the PL and Championship. Pearson could make the step up effortlessly and he could not. There is no point comparing first team players to players who have never played a minute of senior football. There is some way to go yet for Pearson and who knows how he will develop and turn out.
 
limerickcitykid said:
Well there isn't. One just became a regular in the reserves half way through the season where as the other one around 150 first team appearances in the PL and Championship. Pearson could make the step up effortlessly and he could not. There is no point comparing first team players to players who have never played a minute of senior football. There is some way to go yet for Pearson and who knows how he will develop and turn out.
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Jesus man - lighten the feck up for Christ sake... Have a coke & a smile :)
 
limerickcitykid said:
Well there isn't. One just became a regular in the reserves half way through the season where as the other one around 150 first team appearances in the PL and Championship. Pearson could make the step up effortlessly and he could not. There is no point comparing first team players to players who have never played a minute of senior football. There is some way to go yet for Pearson and who knows how he will develop and turn out.
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Well said.
 
I said at the beginning of the season that I don't think he'd make it to Brazil, but seeing it happen still just highlights the disappointment he's been. Not long ago he was a regular in the first XI for England. Now he's on the verge of not being an international anymore.
 
He wasn't handled very well at all this season, I believe. He had a period in which he did look somewhat bright, then he was overused and completely burnt out by the turn of the year, which lead to him being dropped from the face of the earth then on. On top of that, there's myriads of completely unjustifiable and absurd levels of criticism and hatred and the only man to come out and defend him was Martinez.
If we do get van Gaal, I think he'd look somewhat better. He's always been a player whose strengths are ball retention and keeping the tempo to a decent standard with quick passes and strong movement, in a three man midfield. That's what van Gaal's philosophy is pretty much built upon, whereas in a two man midfield, his ineptitudes are highlighted, not his strengths - his lack of defensive positioning, his lack of any real physical presence in his game and not having the best long range passing and shooting techniques.

He's an odd one, is Tom.
 
Disappointed for him, however England's midfield is horrible and will be dominated anyway by the opposition. Therefore I am glad Cleverley at least won't be the scapegoat for their upcoming shocking midfield performance in the world cup.
 
Double edge that decision for me. Surely must be a disappointment for him ( although it's right he didn't deserve to go ) but on the other hand, he won't be a scapegoat for England's inevitable failure there so he'll atleast save himself some time and nerves.

@united_99 hivemind eh? :lol:
 
He wouldn't be the real scapegoat anyway - that's Rooney's role come July and August. Pretty standard procedure post-2004.
 
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