Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

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I don't get the squad player stuff really. A squad player will still have to play 20-25 games in a season, would you have faith in Cleverley for that many games in a season?
:wenger:

While he wasn't world class in the 12/13 season, he still did a good enough job and was part of a title winning side, playing 30 plus games along the way. So to answer your question, if Cleverley can find his form from 12/13 season, then yes I honestly think he can be a good squad player.
He doesn't have to be 'world class' to be quality. While his performances are fine and people are saying he isn't 'world class' it doesn't mean he is a shite footballer and should disappear.

That whole midfield gets a 'we must re-evaluate' due to the sharp decline of Carrick, the Moyes seemingly only preferring combinations involving a shite Carrick. If we remove Michael from that midfield and try and strike up some actual functioning combinations you'll probably de-construct Tom Cleverley's game and see that there is a player with a useful amount of versatility and ability.

A system with some mobility in that midfield and he will become an important ingredient. Lets not put all our eggs in one basket and say 'he'll become world class' because he doesn't need to do that to get recognition.
 
He was looking genuinely class in 2011/12 until that Kevin Davies tackle that put him out for ages. The whole internet was on fire for the brilliant football we had been playing and we had scored really quite a lot of goals (including the 8-2 v Arsenal :D), then came THAT game v City at Old Trafford :nervous: and Fergie retreated into his shell, and the team started playing the zombie football we've been playing ever since, and Tom hasn't looked the same.


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Yes, that's Cleverly who's the fulcrum of that entire move and who provides the assist :)
 
He was looking genuinely class in 2011/12 until that Kevin Davies tackle that put him out for ages. The whole internet was on fire for the brilliant football we had been playing and we had scored really quite a lot of goals (including the 8-2 v Arsenal :D), then came THAT game v City at Old Trafford :nervous: and Fergie retreated into his shell, and the team started playing the zombie football we've been playing ever since, and Tom hasn't looked the same.


25soeo3.jpg.gif



Yes, that's Cleverly who's the fulcrum of that entire move and who provides the assist :)


Class? First game vs west Brom everyone was moaning about our midfield. We played a Spurs team, who had a midfield of Kranjcar and Livermore. Arsenal were poor on the day, even Young looked great in that game.

So please don't rewrite history. He has never looked class. Looked decent at times and hiding a lot of the times too.
 
Class? First game vs west Brom everyone was moaning about our midfield. We played a Spurs team, who had a midfield of Kranjcar and Livermore. Arsenal were poor on the day, even Young looked great in that game.

So please don't rewrite history. He has never looked class. Looked decent at times and hiding a lot of the times too.

OK, here's the post game ratings for that game:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ratings-vs-west-brom.337518/


A few minor whinges about Anderson being defensively lazy, but other than that barely a single complaint about the midfield. We played some scintillating attacking football the first few months and everyone was delighted about it, chief amongst the reasons for that was how good Cleverly looked. There's only one person 'rewriting history' here bro :)
 
OK, here's the post game ratings for that game:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ratings-vs-west-brom.337518/


A few minor whinges about Anderson being defensively lazy, but other than that barely a single complaint about the midfield. We played some scintillating attacking football the first few months and everyone was delighted about it, chief amongst the reasons for that was how good Cleverly looked. There's only one person 'rewriting history' here bro :)


So he got a bunch of 6 and 7 ratings vs West Brom you think he was class. Maybe our standards differ.
 
A few minor whinges about Anderson being defensively lazy, but other than that barely a single complaint about the midfield. We played some scintillating attacking football the first few months and everyone was delighted about it, chief amongst the reasons for that was how good Cleverly looked. There's only one person 'rewriting history' here bro :)
We went 24 and 5 before Carrick returned to the team (from memory) and after that we went 3-7 to be 27 and 12 by the end of October. The mobility was taken out of that unit and it showed. Oh and of course Welbeck got injured as well.. :devil:

edit: Hmm.... I think that may actually have been the 1-6 against City... yes on the 23rd. I left my original statement there because Cleverley got injured and Carrick hadn't returned yet.
 
So he got a bunch of 6 and 7 ratings vs West Brom you think he was class. Maybe our standards differ.

Well no, I said he looked class over a reasonable period. You said there was a specific game where our midfield was shit and everyone was crying about it, so I went and dug out the ratings thread which disproved your claim. I'm not going to go and dig out the ratings threads for every single game in that run, but you can bet Clev got consistent 7s and 8s. Everyone was delighted how we started the season, then it all changed after that 6-1 game...
 
Well no, I said he looked class over a reasonable period. You said there was a specific game where our midfield was shit and everyone was crying about it, so I went and dug out the ratings thread which disproved your claim. I'm not going to go and dig out the ratings threads for every single game in that run, but you can bet Clev got consistent 7s and 8s. Everyone was delighted how we started the season, then it all changed after that 6-1 game...
Arguably it changed against Stoke. We beat Chelsea 3-1 with Carrick returning and from memory we played quite well in that game despite the re-shuffle. Anderson started with Fletcher and that period was by far some of Andersons best form at the club. No second guesses as to why when playing a positive ball runner with a pass and move player that we see an improvement in the function of midfield. Stoke pinched a point against us and then we beat Norwich and Liverpool nicked (I think they nicked anyway) a point against us.. THEN City.

I think the shot to the gut against Stoke sent us reeling in which we threw a few punches back but the knockout blow was delivered right to the jaw by City in that 1-6.
 
Well no, I said he looked class over a reasonable period. You said there was a specific game where our midfield was shit and everyone was crying about it, so I went and dug out the ratings thread which disproved your claim. I'm not going to go and dig out the ratings threads for every single game in that run, but you can bet Clev got consistent 7s and 8s. Everyone was delighted how we started the season, then it all changed after that 6-1 game...

Really?

The warning sides were there vs Basle and Chelsea that our midfield offered no protection to our defence and those teams had far too many chances. We played a few poor teams, which papered over the cracks.

Disapproved my claim? No you didn't. You said he was class. He wasn't. Like I said he'd be decent at times and then tend to hide. He's 25 not a youngster. He doesn't have one trait that stands out. People keep referring to Henderson and Ramsey. But they were higher rated than Cleverley.

So please tell me what's his best trait? Don't tell me he's decent and keeps things ticking.
 
Arguably it changed against Stoke. We beat Chelsea 3-1 with Carrick returning and from memory we played quite well in that game despite the re-shuffle. Anderson started with Fletcher and that period was by far some of Andersons best form at the club. No second guesses as to why when playing a positive ball runner with a pass and move player that we see an improvement in the function of midfield. Stoke pinched a point against us and then we beat Norwich and Liverpool nicked (I think they nicked anyway) a point against us.. THEN City.

I think the shot to the gut against Stoke sent us reeling in which we threw a few punches back but the knockout blow was delivered right to the jaw by City in that 1-6.

Chelsea had 20 shots that game. Including a 2vs1 and Torres missing that open goal. They were unlucky to lose.
 
Really?

The warning sides were there vs Basle and Chelsea that our midfield offered no protection to our defence and those teams had far too many chances. We played a few poor teams, which papered over the cracks.

Disapproved my claim? No you didn't. You said he was class. He wasn't. Like I said he'd be decent at times and then tend to hide. He's 25 not a youngster. He doesn't have one trait that stands out. People keep referring to Henderson and Ramsey. But they were higher rated than Cleverley.

So please tell me what's his best trait? Don't tell me he's decent and keeps things ticking.
He runs about a bit and keeps it ticking mate, makes the simple pass. Runs about. Keeps running about. He is literally no better than Steve Sidwell. Actually he is worse than Steve Sidwell.
 
The warning sides were there vs Basle and Chelsea that our midfield offered no protection to our defence and those teams had far too many chances. We played a few poor teams, which papered over the cracks.
Tom Cleverley was injured in the Bolton game before the Benfica, Chelsea and Basel games. Fletcher started with Anderson in the league and a combination of a returning Carrick/Fletcher/Anderson in the Champions League.

For someone harping on about re-writing history you're doing a great job of it yourself here.
Chelsea had 20 shots that game. Including a 2vs1 and Torres missing that open goal. They were unlucky to lose.
That doesn't mean we didn't play well.
 
He has really regressed. He just needs to put this season behind him and get back to his former self which while wasn't outstanding, was good enough to be a squad player.

This is a player that we had no qualms about against Real Madrid in the Champs League, now we don't trust him in any games at all. If we get a few good midfielders in who he can work alongside then he should return to form.
 
Tom Cleverley was injured in the Bolton game before the Benfica, Chelsea and Basel games. Fletcher started with Anderson in the league and a combination of a returning Carrick/Fletcher/Anderson in the Champions League.

For someone harping on about re-writing history you're doing a great job of it yourself here.

You need to learn to read, he said everyone was delighted with how we started the season. We beat a few poor teams which papered over the cracks, when we played half decent teams we let them have 20 shots on goal hence our early exit from Europe and we were talking about our midfield before the City game. Which he said was decent.

It wasn't with or without Cleverley. So can you answer my question above? What's his best trait?
 
He runs about a bit and keeps it ticking mate, makes the simple pass. Runs about. Keeps running about. He is literally no better than Steve Sidwell. Actually he is worse than Steve Sidwell.

Atleast Gibson had a shot. If we signed Cleverley from another club, I'm sure a lot of people would have a different attitude if he didn't come through the ranks. It would be similar to Fellaini.
 
Disapproved my claim? No you didn't. You said he was class. He wasn't. Like I said he'd be decent at times and then tend to hide. He's 25 not a youngster. He doesn't have one trait that stands out. People keep referring to Henderson and Ramsey. But they were higher rated than Cleverley.

Well yes. I said he was 'looking class' until he got injured. That was all of 5 games. In those 5 games (including the Charity Shield where we were 2-0 down at half time and getting spanked, then brought on Cleverly at half time who was clear motm to help us win 3-2 by the way), we won 8-2, 5-0, 3-0, 2-1 and 3-2 against teams including Arsenal, City and Spurs. Not exactly chump teams. I didn't say he was already a class player, I said he was lookign class. There was considerable hype because the team was young and playing scintillating football those first few games, and Cleverly was a vital part of that. Now the word class might have been slight hyperbole, and certainly seems to have gotten you riled, but the implication was that if he had had a long run in the team, he looked like a player who could be very good for us. He was certainly showing potential. He was a very important part of a team that had swept away all challengers in those first few games.

You then claimed that against West Brom he already looked shit and everyone was crying about our midfield, so I went and dug out the West brom ratings thread which had about one complaint in the whole thread, and that was a small whinge about Anderson tracking back, so yes, I would say that the evidence disproved your claim that:

First game vs west Brom everyone was moaning about our midfield.

It's the fecking ratings thread from that game, with virtually no complaints about the midfield ffs! And certainly no complaints about Clev.

There's really no point discussing it if you'Re going to make up things that didn't happen.


Really?

The warning sides were there vs Basle and Chelsea that our midfield offered no protection to our defence and those teams had far too many chances. We played a few poor teams, which papered over the cracks.

Yes they were, but Cleverly was already injured by that stage. We were playing Carrick and Fletcher together a lot but playing the same way, even though those 2 don't have a quarter of the mobility that Clev and Anderson did. And we could have scored another 2 or 3 in that game every bit as much as Chelsea could have. It could easily have ended 6-3, but I guess only Chelsea's missed chances count and ours don't?

So please tell me what's his best trait? Don't tell me he's decent and keeps things ticking.

His best trait is how he brings other players with more flair into play. Your team won't work if you have 11 Arjen Robbens, you need someone to do the dirty work and the approach work too. In fact here, this is what Clev does best:

25soeo3.jpg.gif


I feel like I'm repeating myself here somehow :D
 
You need to learn to read, he said everyone was delighted with how we started the season. We beat a few poor teams which papered over the cracks, when we played half decent teams we let them have 20 shots on goal hence our early exit from Europe and we were talking about our midfield before the City game. Which he said was decent.

It wasn't with or without Cleverley. So can you answer my question above? What's his best trait?
You mean I need to decipher your lazy points as if it's a broad blanket description that covers every base in the first place instead of constructing an argument and correcting you?.. Righto then.

Cleverley's best trait is his awareness in the pass and move. Will always move forward and find space. When played with a static player his game is utterly pointless. He's not a ball runner, he's not a close and hose defensive midfielder and he's not a deep lying ball playing playmaker. He'll take you forward with good pass and move play and has shown in the past that he can finish at an acceptable level for someone playing in the advanced third.

If you look at all the other players around at the time I think it stands out that he formed a good partnership with Anderson in that period. Like I said, good pass and move players compliment good ball carriers. When you take Anderson, Giggs, Cleverley and Park Ji-Sung out of that system you're left with Michael Carrick and Fletcher. At the time Fletcher was a great box to box option and had a great engine for close and hose. Michael Carrick was the same 'won't close, will just stand off and let people ghost in' Carrick in defense. All of these combinations besides Anderson and maybe Giggs just didn't offer a competent defensive solution so I don't think you can hang the 'open' play when we're scoring goals on our midfield at the time.
 
He runs about a bit and keeps it ticking mate, makes the simple pass. Runs about. Keeps running about. He is literally no better than Steve Sidwell. Actually he is worse than Steve Sidwell.

He's Jack Colback without ginger hair. But Jack Colback has more goal threat.
 
He's Jack Colback without ginger hair. But Jack Colback has more goal threat.
Eh, I'd rather have Colback. Colback seems feisty, and not quite the non-entity Cleverley is. He'd rather meld into the pitch than receive a ball half the time. He literally hides behind opposition players.
 
Well yes. I said he was 'looking class' until he got injured. That was all of 5 games. In those 5 games (including the Charity Shield where we were 2-0 down at half time and getting spanked, then brought on Cleverly at half time who was clear motm to help us win 3-2 by the way), we won 8-2, 5-0, 3-0, 2-1 and 3-2 against teams including Arsenal, City and Spurs. Not exactly chump teams. I didn't say he was already a class player, I said he was lookign class. There was considerable hype because the team was young and playing scintillating football those first few games, and Cleverly was a vital part of that. Now the word class might have been slight hyperbole, and certainly seems to have gotten you riled, but the implication was that if he had had a long run in the team, he looked like a player who could be very good for us. He was certainly showing potential. He was a very important part of a team that had swept away all challengers in those first few games.

You then claimed that against West Brom he already looked shit and everyone was crying about our midfield, so I went and dug out the West brom ratings thread which had about one complaint in the whole thread, and that was a small whinge about Anderson tracking back, so yes, I would say that the evidence disproved your claim that:



It's the fecking ratings thread from that game, with virtually no complaints about the midfield ffs! And certainly no complaints about Clev.

There's really no point discussing it if you'Re going to make up things that didn't happen.




Yes they were, but Cleverly was already injured by that stage. We were playing Carrick and Fletcher together a lot but playing the same way, even though those 2 don't have a quarter of the mobility that Clev and Anderson did. And we could have scored another 2 or 3 in that game every bit as much as Chelsea could have. It could easily have ended 6-3, but I guess only Chelsea's missed chances count and ours don't?



His best trait is how he brings other players with more flair into play. Your team won't work if you have 11 Arjen Robbens, you need someone to do the dirty work and the approach work too. In fact here, this is what Clev does best:

25soeo3.jpg.gif


I feel like I'm repeating myself here somehow :D


Jesus christ, ratings thread. Did you actually read the matchday thread? You weren't even a member. So were you happy with our midfield in 2011? I certainly wasn't. We lost to Barcelona in the final and signed Young, recalled Cleverley. That will scare them. One of Fergies biggest mistakes.

Oh look keep posting that community shield goal. Dirty work? Did you watch him against Norwich. He was like a lost puppy and I can quote 5 people who said the same exact thing in that thread. Cleverley isn't much different to Carrick. He backs away and can't do any of the defensive work. He certainly isn't Fletcher at his peak. Fletcher had a lot more mobility than Cleverley. He was a better passer too. Cleverley can't even complete a game at 25 without looking gassed. I would love to see a stat of how many games he has completed.

That start of 2011/2012 a lot of people got carried away. Like I said, we weren't amazing vs West Brom. For 60 minutes we were poor against Spurs, who had Kranjcar and Livermore in midfield. And were missing Modric and Bale. That Arsenal game even Young looked great in that game. Do you want him to stay? He scored three in three back in 2011 at the start. Lets have a petition to get him to stay too.

Whenever we came up against a decent team, we got exposed badly and that is why we went out of Europe.
 
It's clear you have an agenda here, so i'll gratefully say thanks, but no thanks.

Agenda because I have a different opinion to you. Really?

You need to learn how forums work. Not everybody is going to type I agree. It would be kind of boring.
 
Agenda because I have a different opinion to you. Really?
Why is this always the same answer to 'you clearly have an agenda here', differing opinions doesn't create an agenda. Talking complete bollocks and changing things to suit your arguments is an agenda. It's not on me, especially when it's this obvious. I think you need to learn that if you're going to talk codshit then being called out on it is part and parcel. If you aren't going to realize it then you're going to continue in the same agenda driven fashion in an attempt to talk your way out of it and you're going to look like a tit. Accept it.
I feel like I'm repeating myself here somehow :D
:drool:
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Jesus christ, ratings thread. Did you actually read the matchday thread? You weren't even a member. So were you happy with our midfield in 2011? I certainly wasn't. We lost to Barcelona in the final and signed Young, recalled Cleverley. That will scare them. One of Fergies biggest mistakes.

Oh look keep posting that community shield goal. Dirty work? Did you watch him against Norwich. He was like a lost puppy and I can quote 5 people who said the same exact thing in that thread. Cleverley isn't much different to Carrick. He backs away and can't do any of the defensive work. He certainly isn't Fletcher at his peak. Fletcher had a lot more mobility than Cleverley. He was a better passer too. Cleverley can't even complete a game at 25 without looking gassed. I would love to see a stat of how many games he has completed.

That start of 2011/2012 a lot of people got carried away. Like I said, we weren't amazing vs West Brom. For 60 minutes we were poor against Spurs, who had Kranjcar and Livermore in midfield. And were missing Modric and Bale. That Arsenal game even Young looked great in that game. Do you want him to stay? He scored three in three back in 2011 at the start. Lets have a petition to get him to stay too.

Whenever we came up against a decent team, we got exposed badly and that is why we went out of Europe.

Well as I said, I said Cleverly 'looked' class because he only lasted 5 games before he was crocked. It's not really a big enough sample size to say for sure, but he showed plenty in those games that he hasn't showed since we moved towards the zombie football (TM noodlehair) style after the City game. He needs to be in a team that plays that way to be effective. If he's in a static team he'll continue to look shit. I genuinely think if we sell him to Everton under Martinez he'll look better than McCarthy, and everyone on here will be bitching and moaning about why we let go such a talented player.

And I would keep Young. He was a huge part of that football too, possibly our best player in those earl games, and was also brought low by injuries. I think he's become a massive scapegoat for our zombie style of recent years and I think there's a pretty good footballer still hidden in there and waiting to come out. No, I wouldn't cry if we sold him, but I would be perfectly happy to keep him around too.
 
Why is this always the same answer to 'you clearly have an agenda here', differing opinions doesn't create an agenda. Talking complete bollocks and changing things to suit your arguments is an agenda. It's not on me, especially when it's this obvious. I think you need to learn that if you're going to talk codshit then being called out on it is part and parcel. If you aren't going to realize it then you're going to continue in the same agenda driven fashion in an attempt to talk your way out of it and you're going to look like a tit. Accept it.

:drool:


What did I change?

Go find the matchday thread vs West Brom and go read the comments about our midfield. Or for 60 minutes how we looked clueless against Spurs. I haven't rewrote anything. Fact is our midfield was never good enough in 2011 and it showed. It's never been good enough since 2009 actually.

Nobody seriously thought Cleverley and Anderson would be our long term midfield. If you rate Cleverley and Anderson so highly, why you living off 2011? It's 2014 now.
 
What did I change?

Go find the matchday thread vs West Brom and go read the comments about our midfield. Or for 60 minutes how we looked clueless against Spurs. I haven't rewrote anything. Fact is our midfield was never good enough in 2011 and it showed. It's never been good enough since 2009 actually.

Nobody seriously thought Cleverley and Anderson would be our long term midfield. If you rate Cleverley and Anderson so highly, why you living off 2011? It's 2014 now.

Matchday threads are literally worth less than my toilet paper. Anyone who forms any opinions from a matchday thread other than 'internet fans are gimps' is nuts.
 
What did I change?

Go find the matchday thread vs West Brom and go read the comments about our midfield. Or for 60 minutes how we looked clueless against Spurs. I haven't rewrote anything. Fact is our midfield was never good enough in 2011 and it showed. It's never been good enough since 2009 actually.

Nobody seriously thought Cleverley and Anderson would be our long term midfield. If you rate Cleverley and Anderson so highly, why you living off 2011? It's 2014 now.
I, too, enjoy living in the past. Obertan is the next Ronaldo.
 
Well as I said, I said Cleverly 'looked' class because he only lasted 5 games before he was crocked. It's not really a big enough sample size to say for sure, but he showed plenty in those games that he hasn't showed since we moved towards the zombie football (TM noodlehair) style after the City game. He needs to be in a team that plays that way to be effective. If he's in a static team he'll continue to look shit. I genuinely think if we sell him to Everton under Martinez he'll look better than McCarthy, and everyone on here will be bitching and moaning about why we let go such a talented player.

And I would keep Young. He was a huge part of that football too, possibly our best player in those earl games, and was also brought low by injuries. I think he's become a massive scapegoat for our zombie style of recent years and I think there's a pretty good footballer still hidden in there and waiting to come out. No, I wouldn't cry if we sold him, but I would be perfectly happy to keep him around too.


So you want to keep Young and Cleverley? :lol:

And Cleverley will look better than McCarthy? :lol:

So why was McCarthy the better player at Wigan?
 
We need to give everyone a fair shot Bojan, no need to be hasty. 3 years is simply not enough to judge a player. Recall Anderson. Bring Macheda back. Hell, why not get Luke Chadwick and Kleberson back too. Everybody, no matter how mediocre, is welcome at Manchester United.
 
fecking hell, it's come to something when you have to defend your club's players against their own fans :wenger:
 
Riveting stuff.

:lol:. That made me laugh.
Now you're saying Cleverley's a good finisher - Tom - 3 goals in 54 PL matches - Cleverley? :lol: He cannot finish to save his life. If scoring a decent goal every 25 games makes a player a good finisher then Darron Gibson is Pippo Inzaghi.
 
fecking hell, it's come to something when you have to defend your club's players against their own fans :wenger:

I question SAF's god-like status in thinking the likes of Cleverley and Ashley Young were ever going to be United-quality players. I don't think it's particularly harsh to say that Cleverley really isn't that good. Of course, LVG may disagree...I don't think so though.
 
We need to give everyone a fair shot Bojan, no need to be hasty. 3 years is simply not enough to judge a player. Recall Anderson. Bring Macheda back. Hell, why not get Luke Chadwick and Kleberson back too. Everybody, no matter how mediocre, is welcome at Manchester United.

I don't mind Cleverley as a squad player, who plays 10 or 15 games next season. We can't get rid of all the mediocre at the same time.

What I do mind is people saying he was class. Him and Anderson were amazing vs Kranjcar and Livermore in 2011. It's 2014 now, where they been the last three years? Cleverley is the type of player though who only plays well when the team are playing well. We don't have too many players in centre midfield, when the team is playing poorly to take control of the game. Like Keane and Scholes did.
 
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