Kagawa plays a simple 5 yard pass - jizz everywhere
Cleverley does the same - OMG what a coward!!!!
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter Bebe
- Start date
- Status
Kagawa plays a simple 5 yard pass - jizz everywhere
Cleverley does the same - OMG what a coward!!!!
Nevertheless a series of managers including Sir Alex have kept Cleverley as part of the squad
It wasn't that ling ago that Hodgson had him as a regular in the England squad
This season has seen a collective loss of form and confidence and I think Cleverley needs to stay
When I mention team selection I think it does mean something - that Giggs and the backroom staff see Tom as part of the squad in the future
Ah, pardon me then, I misunderstood you. Agree with the bolded.
He takes unfair flack because we lack a marauding, creative midfielder and he is not that. It's a complete fallacy that every midfielder needs to be like that though. e.g Busquets
Cleverley not as bad as people make out. Everything on here is always extremes. Really good or really bad. His a confidence player like most here, and he's obviously not got a lot of that at the moment. England fan polls about not taking him to World Cup can't have helped, and it's well documented some utd fans views of his abilities.
The problem for Tom is there is going to be even more pressure on his position next year, there will be new signings and players coming back from loans. Also we are gonna see players like Mata and Kagawa start to show their real potential, and any system is going to have to accommodate them IMO.
Not sure where that leaves Tom.
The problem for Tom is there is going to be even more pressure on his position next year, there will be new signings and players coming back from loans. Also we are gonna see players like Mata and Kagawa start to show their real potential, and any system is going to have to accommodate them IMO.
Not sure where that leaves Tom.
It says that our mid-field is an absolute joke compared to other teams with ambitions. It was either Cleverly, Fletch or Fellaini alongside Carrick - that is embarrassing!
Cleverly is not United quality. Any other top club wouldnt have him - so why should we play him just because he came through the ranks?!
That whole Twatter campaign against him playin for England was very wrong, but the whole Country - apart from United fans, are sickened he's anywhere near the England team because he offers nothing for their Country... No-one rates him, in fact - neutrals dont even think he's Prem class - nevermind United class!
His best game for United was a 2nd-half sub appearance against City at the Community Shield when we were 2nil down. He was brilliant & got everyone's hopes up that his potential was gonna be fulfilled. That was in 2011 ffs!
I think he shows flashes - I remember the league game this season away to Sunderland when he had a very good game - his best spell for me was a couple of seasons ago when he and Anderson had a good start to the season
Our midfield is undeniably weak though and personally I dont think Carrick should be a guaranteed starter next season if we sign the right players
Carrick and Fletcher will stay
Powell will come back - loan again perhaps?
Anderson should go
Giggs will be unavailable
Fellaini - I would sell if we could - hoping he has a good world cup
Cleverley, Fletcher and Carrick would be good backup to the first team for me
How many midfielders do you see us signing? Two max and mainly for that reason I think Tom will be retained
Yes, it's one reason but not the only one! If they come through the ranks and are as good/useful as other players who are supposed to play in the same position more or less (like Fellaini) then I would take the homegrown player everytime. And in my opinion Cleverley is technically much better than Fellaini. But if I don't rate them at all, then they can go immediately as far as I am concerned. I didn't rate Gibson at all, for example.
The way I see it, if we sell Cleverley to keep Fellaini, it would be ridiculous, actually the board should be sacked for such kind of decisions.
If however we sell Cleverley (and have already got rid off Fellaini) in order to make way for much better players like Koke or Gundogan, then I wouldn't be against it.
You seriously cant compare Cleverly to Kagawa? Chalk & cheese mate!
Kagawa is probably our most technically gifted player at the club & both-footed also... Cleverly doesnt even have a right foot!
Kagawa always thinks one or two moves ahead when he receives the ball - same as Mata.. Cleverly gets a touch & gets rid of it asap - usually small side-ways / backwards passes & never runs into space demanding the ball back.
Ji Sung Park used to get slated on here & quite rightly when he had a poor game, but a Park-type of poor game seems to a motm performance from Cleverly by some of the folk on here.
Folk like him because "he's got potential.. he's one of us.. he came through the ranks... he's a nice lad..". All of those things are true apart from the potential part. He's 25 years old in August & has been given enough time to show he deserves to be at United & has failed miserably in my opinion!
If Moyes was deemed to play negative football at United, what does it say when he dropped Cleverly for the last while? Even with Moyes' negative format - Cleverly was overly negative & deemed not good enough for Moyes... That says it all & i'm flabbergasted that folk on here are still thinkin our ambitions can be fulfilled havin him in the team...
Teams dont fear us when they see names like Cleverly's on the teamsheet!
I don't get this as he's not way better than Fellaini he is way worse imo. There are far better players out there than Cleverley playing in the bottom half of the prem league. Imagine how much of an upgrade a Fabergas or Modric would be.
That's just not true.
He did well yesterday. That's in my opinion.
Him starting yesterday highlighted some of my Giggsy concerns. All 'United Way ' - straight away back to 442, two homegrown players 'as is tradition' and the old boys of Rio and Vidic back in the team.
I could name a few English midfielders ww would never dream of signing who are nowhere near the national team who are better than Cleverley.
The likes of Jack Cork, Mark Noble and even the likes of Jordan Mutch are not inferior players. Clev doesn't belong here, he is a passenger. I'd rather see Powell given a chance to see if he can offer any more.
I could name a few English midfielders ww would never dream of signing who are nowhere near the national team who are better than Cleverley.
The likes of Jack Cork, Mark Noble and even the likes of Jordan Mutch are not inferior players. Clev doesn't belong here, he is a passenger. I'd rather see Powell given a chance to see if he can offer any more.
I didn't think he was that bad considering how long he has been sidelined. He and Carrick looked better when freed from Moyes's restrictions on midfielders.
Sorry for the delay in replying back to you man. I got caught up in something away from the cyberworld!
I rant about Tom because he had so much potential, but has gotten worse instead of better & thats frustrating. If we want to get back on track we cant have any average players that put in the odd decent period of a game - we've got away with it in the past because we had Rio, Vida, Evra & VDS shuttin the other team out & we scraped through 1 nil etc..
"Good teams that have an off-day can always find a way to win the game.." is a phrase thats been used to express us on so many occasions.
We dont have the personnel (in many areas) to play shite - but nick games against good teams. We gotta be realistic about that, because the Prem has vastly improved in the past 2 seasons - especially this season, and we need to spend a shitload of that money thats been streaming into the club. At the end of the final financial quarter of this year, the club predicts we'll have brought in £420m net in revenue. Thats unbelievable!
Carrick plays almost every game & he's 32/33 years of age. Thats not good, but he's our best & most important CM, so we've no option but to play him. Thats the problem i have with all our top players - who can replace them to give them a rest & put in an equally good shift? We dont have like for like replacements or even close to that desire.
Top teams all have their best 11, but they also have great replacements & options; either for tactical / performance reasons.. We dont have that in CM, in defence or on the wings - if you consider how shite Valencia can be at times, Young being shite all the time & Nani not fulfilling his potential, with him havin a foot on the pool for most of every season - 1 or 2 really good games & then shite for 3 or 4 in a row afterwards. Zaha should be given a chance & also a boot in the bollox if he's fecking around acting the prick - as been reported?!
As regards to your list man:
Carrick and Fletcher will stay - I agree.
Powell will come back - loan again perhaps? - If he goes on loan again he might wanna leave altogether. But whats his ideal position anyway - in the hole or an attacking CM? I'm unsure of that to be honest. We need players in CM, not in the hole. Thankfully we're stacked there, but he's a decent player. He's not startin all the time for Wigan though, which is a worry.
Anderson should go - Totally, but not sure whether The Viollas will want to take him on a permanent basis. He hasnt set their world alight since his loan term began in mid-January.
Giggs will be unavailable - Yeah, he'll probably still want to be available to play, but i feel it'll be a rarity he gets a game due to his coaching duties & new additions.
Fellaini - I would sell if we could - hoping he has a good world cup - I would keep him to be honest. He's different to anything we have (or most teams for that matter) & although he hasnt been great - far from it of course, he gives the opposition something to think about & has shown glimpses of being a decent player for us. Physical players scare the shite out of oppoistion - look at the job he's done on us on many occasions. He's an option is we need to win ugly.
Cleverley, Fletcher and Carrick would be good backup to the first team for me - You can only have a squad of 25 players, with endless U-21's been thrusted into matchday at any time, so we have to weigh up who's goin & who's coming in. Cleverly is surplus to requirements for me, but i'd definitely retain Carrick & Fletch. Carrick will still have a major part to play in our comeback & with the right players around him in CM during certain games. He could get his form back - but he's 32/33 years old afterall & too much responsibility has been placed on his shoulders for far too long. He's been needing help for a long time. Fletch is still recovering from illness & deserves time to get himself right. The summer months should be a great opportunity for him to train hard, rest, eat well & prepare himself for next season. He has all our support for his struggles & his never say die attitude to come back & play for us again.
"How many midfielders do you see us signing?" you ask..
If you've read some of my posts regarding players we need to bring in (especially CM's) & players we will bring in & you'd probably be thinkin i was in dreamland, so here goes my CM desirables anyway.
We need 2 top-class all-rounders - box to box. An enforcer to protect the back 4, but can also play. And a creative CM in the mould of Modric / Scholesy. That will give us options which we dont have & havent had for a number of seasons.
We should be makin up for lost time with not dealin with our CM problem, and especially given that we've blown 2 transfer windows to bring any CM's in. That would set us up for years on end & it would be a signal of intent - which Ed & Co were shiting on about last summer & more recently in February.
So how many of those will we actually bring in? Thats a good question (one thats hard to answer tbh), but my desirables are what we need in my opinion & it seems that many top-players are available at this point, so if we pass up - another team will pick them up & we fall even further behind.
I dont know what the mantra of the club is at the moment, as regards to pressing ahead with our targets without a new manager etc. The players we've been linked with under Moyes has been exciting for us fans. He's been all over the shop & so has the scouts etc, assessing world-class talent. The transfer forum has never been so exciting after a transfer window has closed.
Moyes didnt think many of our players were capable of us challenging for top honours. Fergie seems to agree with that (goin from reports & his supposed rage at Moyes sacking - nevermind what he said to the Jockey Ruby Walsh about there needing to be a clear out of his players) & so did the board as they've gone on record many times stating the will to spunk a shitload on new players.
The problem i have now is, are we gonna wait til mid-July when Van Gaal's out of contract to get players in & start a whole new transfer assessment period again? He hasnt even seen our players in training yet to know what he has available to him ffs. All the hard graft we've done assessing some of the best players in Europe & meetin agents etc, will have gone to waste, as many of those players will have already been snapped up..
I kept heard from people that Huddlestone deserves an England call than Cleverley. I think against Hull City would be a good match up between him and Clev. I will also say Southampton have some decent midfield. So it's also will be a good match for Clev to show some hope for next season. Sunderland and Norwich are not the best match to convince people.
Kagawa - 78% complete with only 19% of his passes forward.
Cleverley - 94.5% completion with 41% of his passes forward.
I'm not trying to say Cleverley was better than Kagawa but just look at that. People see what they want. I remember earlier this season in a match people just flocked in and said Cleverley is a coward and hid from the ball. This despite the fact he made the most passes for us in that match by far.
Someone mentioned opposition fans opinions on him. I was on and Everton forum and I'd say 60-70% didn't rate him. I went into the James McCarthy thread and about at least 70% of them didn't rate him when he was signed. So opposition fans can not rate him all they want, if they are fecking clueless then it means nothing.
Good post and bit in bold is particularly true.
Let's hope we sign a good CM this summer or some of the lunatics in this thread will start to question whether his true level is as a non league player.
We all love our home-growns, but if they're useless & not United class at 25+ years old - whats the point keeping them man?!
Fellaini has so much more to his game than Cleverly. Fellaini isnt great thats for sure, but he's not a shrinkin violet & gives the opposition something to think about. Opposition players laugh when they see Cleverly's name on the teamsheet. They laugh too when they see Fellaini's, but they know they're in for a tougher match than havin to play against Cleverly.
Look at how many players that have left the club that were deemed long-termers in the team many years before. Thats the way all teams operate - well the big clubs more importantly. You cut your losses if you want success - not accolades about your academy coming through the ranks into the first team.
Gibson was a better player than Cleverly & he had a lethal shot on him, but he wasnt United class - same as Cleverly, Richardson, Rossi, O'Shea, Brown, Phil Neville, Forlan & many more!
Do you have some inside track on what the opposition players think or have you pulled this out of your backside?
Cleverley is better than Gibson, has better technique for a start. Of the names you've mentioned both Rossi and Forlan were good enough for us but both left for different reasons. Richardson aside, the rest have played 200+ games for the club. Cleverley is good enough as a squad player.
Depends on your understanding of "technically gifted" i suppose.. Maybe yours differs from mine.. "Ball sticks to his foot.. and his touch is second to none.." is a great yard-stick in my technically gifted book
I've heard enough from opposition mid-fielders sayin they dont fear OT anymore. The most important thing for each & every player is to win your own personal battle. Opposition CM players havent feared playin against Cleverely - thats pretty evident if you've watched our games at OT this season.
Rossi & Forlan moved on because they couldnt cope with the league or the pressure playin for United!
Define Cleverley's technique by the way? This should be interesting
Kagawa tried to make things happen, Cleverley just moved the ball to the next man
Kagawa's instructions were VERY obviously to find direct passes to whomever was in space. The problem is that his passing range is pretty ordinary. Anything over 10 yards and his technique falls apart.
I've heard enough from opposition mid-fielders sayin they dont fear OT anymore. The most important thing for each & every player is to win your own personal battle. Opposition CM players havent feared playin against Cleverely - thats pretty evident if you've watched our games at OT this season.
Rossi & Forlan moved on because they couldnt cope with the league or the pressure playin for United!
Define Cleverley's technique by the way? This should be interesting
So you pulled it of your arse then. Figures.
What about the season before last then? You know the season where we won the league
Cleverley was his usual self last night so nothing spectacular going forward or while defending. I think the bottom line for Clev is that is simply not good enough to start for Manchester United. Regardless of his form/contribution I just dont think he is good enough and for me that is the main point. He cannot be compared to midfielders from our past nor to our current rivals in England and Europe.
Judging by the amount of teams that came and had a go and either got a point or scared us enough to scramble a victory I'd say not many teams feared playing us at OT that year either.
Teams have been coming to Old Trafford and showing some balls for a long time now. Not since the days of Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney up front did anyone shit themselves at the thought of playing us.
Those stats dont tell any story where Cleverley is concerned. Bayern had 78% of possession against Real the other night & did feck all with it & lost.
How many passes did Kagawa have in the last third against 11 men & how many passes did Cleverley have in front of our back four where all the Norwich players were stacked in their own half?
Kagawa probably had on average 3 players around him in a pressure situation, whereas Cleverley had pretty much no one competing against him most of the time.
Cleverley plays football like playin hot-potato - get rid of it asap!
Cleverley 14 out of 16 in final third and Kagawa 15 out of 23.
I think Brown was United class.
Season before last - City won the league!
Scholesy was playing last season for starters. Giggsy aswell. Cleverley played 22 times in the league & was carried by those around him in a 3 man CM. If he plays in a 2 man mid-field he gets exposed as an average player thats better suited to a much lower level or league. He'd do alright in Scotland!
Do you really think he's United class dude?
Not trying bein smart either - unlike you of course!
I personally thought he did alright yesterday. However, every time he would make a mistake I knew people would be waiting to slaughter him, that's the most unfortunate part of it.
It is the nature of the mistake that is most infuriating. He's too slow to make a decision. He dithers with the ball and that is infuriating to watch from a Manchester United Centre Midfielder. We've been accustomed to players of the calibre of Scholes, Keane and even Carrick to some extent for decades. Also, Cleverley seems to make the same kind of mistake, whenever he makes them, match after match. It's lack of confidence and indecision.
I'm probably doing him a disservice by comparing him to Vida & Rio / Bruce & Pally, but thats the levels we have to aspire to man.. Wes wasnt up there with that quartet unfortunately, but he was ruined by injuries too though..
Great servant to the club was Wes
Where you gettin these stats from?
Post a link so i can see them please..
You're the second lad thats posted stats without any link - just so we cant look at all the other stats!
Cleverley started plenty of games next to Carrick in a 2 man CM including some of the big games (cit and arsenal of the top of my head). So in addition to talking shit you have also resorted to making up things.
He's good enough as a squad player.
In a nutshell...
The, "he's a flower bud, ready to blossom.." ship, has sailed quite some time ago & i cant believe folk still want us to remain average (at best) in CM.. Its truly baffling after all our complaining over the years about CM..
fourfourtwo
Kagawa was playing a a winger, albeit an inverted one. I can remember him trying the final ball on numerous ocassions yesterday. A lot of passing stats also count crosses too. You will generally find that wide men have significantly lower pass completion rates than midfielders simply because they try the hardest passes.
Not that I think that Kagawa is anything more than a useful squad player. Cleverley, on the other hand, I don't think that he is good enough for this club.
I personally don't feel he's anywhere near good enough for us. I'm actually a tad bit surprised that some on here still rate him.
If the stories about Everton offering between £8m - £10m are true; I would be in favour of cashing in.
It's a pity how he seems to have actually regressed, after looking like such a talent a-few years back. I don't think we would live to regret it if he moves on, like some are suggesting.
If the stories about Everton offering between £8m - £10m are true; I would be in favour of cashing in.
It's a pity how he seems to have actually regressed, after looking like such a talent a-few years back. I don't think we would live to regret it if he moves on, like some are suggesting.
- Status