He thought he has made it "Clevz in Bangkok"
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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This seems to be a recurring theme in recent times. Our system is being blamed for Cleverly to Kagawa to Mata.
Cleverly is creative, but I dont think he is good enough to play a AM in a 4-2-3-1. He is not one you build a team on. And he has done nothing to deserve a system change.
I'm not sure I'm on the same theme. It's similar, but it's not the same. My point is that we need to change the system to allow our players more comfort in the building up/defensive phases of play. This isn't suited to one player, and having a system being built around them. Under no circumstances should we just look at the system. Player performances have to be factored in.
Cleverley isn't good enough for us to do that, you're right. The point, however, is that a system change will benefit all of our players. Take a look at Shelvey at Swansea or Henderson at Liverpool. Having a short passing option in the middle will be a great start. Rather than a cross the ball and leave the middle open for exploitation system, we could try something different. The Crystal Palace game, though we were up against a poor side, showed us a - not great but better what we have seen for most of the season - model we should be aiming for.
Cleverley is not creative. He's a very average pass and move footballer. He finds a fairly simple pass, makes a run and looks to get it back. This is when he does well.
The thing is he makes a pass and runs into a area where he cannot get the return. More like pass and move away footballer.
So, which system do you think will be good for Cleverly? With Kagawa/Mata/Rooney, an proper No.10 is beyond his reach, not that I'm sure he can perform in it. He is seen as a liability in a 2 man midfield. A 4-3-3 perhaps? I still think he needs to adapt his game to play in a 4-4-2 variation.
Yes he'd do better in a 433. However there is no question of him adapting to play in a 442. He simply doesn't have the mentality or skills to do so.
He's still a decent squad player to have I think. For a couple of years, until someone from the youth teams makes a step up I guess.
I love this, which midfield player wouldn't do better in a 3 man midfield, than a 2? All you mean to say is if he cannot play in a 2 man mid, he can't really take 50% of the midfield workload, and needs an extra body to delegate.
Cleverley still has the potential to be a good player IMO, there are untold examples of players looking average/uncertain at 22 in the centre of the park who have matured rather nicely and have had good careers. No-one is playing well for us right now, so it's harsh to judge him overly at the moment, however when he played he hasn't been good enough unfortunately.
However, I think if we remembered the injuries the boy has sustained so far already, we can understand why he is perhaps a bit behind where he should be and why we should look to give him more time, ask the teams fan's he went on loan to, it was Watford and one other, possibly Leicester? (Don't quote me), either way they both rated him very highly for his mobility and ball retention, but of which I'd say he is currently lacking, so it's clear we are seeing an out of form, under confidence player.
That's exactly it. I think he's going to better in a 4-3-3 because he's less exposed, but IMO a variation of a 4-4-2 is what I've wanted since the start of the season. If we see a variation of a 4-4-2, as opposed to this archaic style we're playing, then we'll improve - it's guaranteed. The system is acting as a barrier for a lot of players. We're not even utilising Rooney - arguably our best player - properly, but I've basically been saying the same the start of the season so I'll stop now.
I don't even think it is simply a 3 man or a 2 man midfield but just our general style of play. Carrick has sat really deep this season almost just in front of the defence and hardly moves. Rooney has played quite high up and Valencia doesn't leave the touchline so the middle of field is just wide open. Even players better than Cleverley would struggle with the wide open space and no movement. When Rooney has dropped deeper or when Jones has played alongside Cleverley he has been a bit better.
I think thats a fair point and something that is really affecting the whole team, the space when we have the ball, or rather the actual ability for the two cms to pass to each other or too one of the central attackers is far too limited atm. Whilst I agree that when Rooney has for example been more disciplined to stay deeper it has helped the likes of Clev, Clev himself is continuously guilty imo of vacating his position to drift, usually slightly wide or taking up positions where he's not really in a position for say Carrick to actually give him the ball.
When Clev actually holds his position like we usually see in big games that he plays he does a decent job defensively and it helps us to move the ball through central areas quicker. Then the issue becomes getting the other deeper central player, usually Rooney in a position where they can give him the ball and he can start attacks. At the moment though Rooney is either too high or too deep, he's rarely in a position it feels where he's on for a realistic pass that can start an attack and if he unfortunately over most the season his pass has been out wide which has usually led to nothing.
The Olym game was a prime example imo of the problem in central areas. Clev was largely in places too difficult to find a pass and Rooney when we got the ball was far too high. It means that we can't use Carricks passes through the middle which were big parts of the last two seasons not get Rooney the ball in great areas which in turn impacts RVP. More importantly though it just means that we can't get the ball forward as the gaps between Carrick, Clev and Rooney are too great. One might come short but if the other is right up the pitch its much more diffficult to get it forward when none of them is really gonna drive up the pitch with the ball.
I think if we could get Clev to be more disciplined next to Carrick and Rooney to be more patient when we're on the ball it would be a big step in stopping us being as ope off the ball as well as quicker to get the ball forward when we win it back. Then the next step would be trying to vary the play. If Young/Valencia play then the movement is so limited, Mata/Januzaj offer better movement but that will take time to click especially as its not really Rooney's game to play that role in that way. I think Clev would look better for it as currently whether its a tactical decision or just his approach it just leads to him have very little impact in most games.
The problem with Cleverley is a simple one: great central midfielders need to be born leaders, but Cleverley has shown no desire to be or become a leader for United or even any kind of awareness that he must be a leader (not the leader, a leader) for United. You can be a leader in the mold of Scholes, of Keane, of Robson or even of Carrick, but you have to be a leader in some way, whether emotionally or by sheer brilliance. Cleverley has neither.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26442914
The petition is pretty abhorrent, but nothing that Hodgson says there actually makes sense.
The petition is pretty abhorrent, but nothing that Hodgson says there actually makes sense.
What doesn't make sense?
The line about people blaming Cleverley for United's season.
It's pretty obvious that people just don't think he's any good, which is closer to the truth.
Oh. Well yes people don't think he is good enough but he is often singled out when everyone plays poorly. It happens at every team. There is always the one or two players that will get picked on and abused when things go wrong.
Normally, by the end of these compilations, I'm convinced said player is key to us (given they only show the good bits/games), but that was distinctly underwhelming. It consisted mostly of passes that I'd expect any player to make, together with a couple of touches of genuine class, and an equal number of discouraging moments.
It seems to me he's good when the tempo is high, allowing his sharpness to close players down and get to the ball first, and take advantage of the spaces that open up naturally. When teams get men behind the ball however, he's not got the cutting edge for a killer pass/run/shot (at least not consistently enough).
That said, we should keep him as a squad player, and he's not half as bad as some are making out with this petition business. But I just don't see him making the necessary steps up to be the calibre of player we need, at this stage.
Let's be honest he is average. 5 years ago he wouldn't be anywhere near our first team let alone our starting 11. Just shows how far we have fallen. He wouldn't get into any of the other top 6 teams. Needs to be sold
Hodgson called him a "sensitive young man". Stuff like this is only going to make him play worse.
a petition to end the petition https://t.co/igmF5ARatA
Petition?? Wtf is wrong with people? What a ridiculous thing to do. He may not be suitable for making the squad but how fecking petty is that?
Idiots
Idiots
Then he is in the wrong buisness
The worst part about this petition shite is that if he has an awful tournament now on the back of it people will still slate him. Failing to realize making a petition to end someone's England career would pretty much destroy their confidence. I don't rate him as a player but the petition thing is just pathetic.
I feel really sorry for him. I mean I don't think he is good enough for us and his level would probably be Hull/Sunderland. My question is why did he make it this far with Fergie in charge? I mean SAF wasn't shy of getting rid of youth players should they not make it to a certain level. What did he see in Tom that we don't? I personally don't see the talent in him and to me he is just an average PL footballer at best. Its strange that he made it this far tbh
He'll be off in the summer, I still think he could do a good job for us in a 3 man midfield but the knock in confidence and the fact that we are asking too much for a player of his quality means it has gotten to Kieran Richardson levels of backlash right now. He will go to a club lower down in the league and do a relatively good job.
I doubt he will. Homegrown rule and all that.
Not sure what i'm supposed to be looking at here...
He looks very average here. I'll admit i've seen him play better than that but if this is him playing well then no wonder he's been taking criticism lately for his poor form.
There's always going to be one fool who's stupid enough to create a petition like this, probably a scouser, and there will always be a few thousands idiots who'll sign it. What really pisses me off are the journalists who report this bullshit. It's not news, it's just some bitter wanker with nothing better to do in between beating himself off all day.
I'll tell you then. Cleverley, like I've always said, and many have identified, has never been the player to split open defences. What he has always been good at, however, is keeping possession and keeping the ball ticking over.
I showed that clip, although I could have probably got a better one, because as you can see (well you probably can't) it shows Cleverley's willingness to get on the ball and receive it anywhere against a very good Man City team last season.
This season, where he's admitted his confidence is very low, it's like he's afraid to receive the ball, and that's not the Cleverley of last year. This is basically what that video was all about.
Signed. I urge all of us to sign this please. Not because he's a United player, but because I honestly wouldn't wish anyone to be banned from the World Cup.
So he's not outstanding at anything in particular except receiving the ball? That should be the minimum you expect from a footballer, never mind one who plays for Manchester United.
You clearly don't get what I'm trying to say. If that's all you can see in the clip then I have nothing else to add to this discussion.I have a feeling that the people who started it and most of those who have signed are just anti-united more than anti-Cleverley. Like you said -Idiots!
To be fair I think Cleverly did show a lot of potential at the beginning, before he joined the first team and showed great promise when he broke in. Injuries at the beginning didn't help, but I think the feeling is, is that he hasn't progressed as much as people thought he might.
"What he has always been good at, however, is keeping possession and keeping the ball ticking over."
Despite the fact he gave the ball away and shot over by quite a distance. Just making 5 yard passes and being an outlet, which is essentially what you said just not as posh, is not up to the standard of what you expect of a United midfield player. I don't blame Cleverley, he shouldn't be a starter for us. Not his fault he's not up to it.
I agree with this...also his recently tabloid article probably didn't help!
That might be fine in the odd big/tough game where he has to come in to help, and in fairness in a lot of big games when he's held his position and done such a role he's been useful, however in most games and ideally in the big games that is not enough. Midfielders at the top level should do those things as a basic point and something say Carrick has always done. But what he has as well as great reading of the game and a great range on either foot. Clev needs something more to his game. I still think he can be a useful squad player but he's got to show what he's done in the bigger games far more often in the smaller games at the very minimum because atm in most games he's not getting involved enough.
On a side note I think the petition is both harsh and stupid. Clev shouldn't be in the squad and probably should have missed a few others but this is just stupid.
Agree. The terrible lack of quality in midfield for United and England saw Cleverley promoted way beyond his capabilities. It's a bit unfair on him that he's getting criticised for failing to meet those standards, he was simply never good enough to do it.
If that petition bothers him then he is in the wrong industry. Footballers recieve all kinds of abuse some of it racial and xenophobic. If anything it should push him to prove his detractors wrong. Anyway it's not like Hodgson was going to consider the petition when selecting the world cup squad.
Cleverley is average in any system. I doubt there would be a significant improvement in his performances if switched to a midfield 3. Many La liga midfielders keep things ticking but that is not all they do. They have other attributes apart form making 5 yard passes. What we need from him is to contribute more either defensively like Busquets does or in attack like Xavi.
Cleverley is average in any system. I doubt there would be a significant improvement in his performances if switched to a midfield 3. Many La liga midfielders keep things ticking but that is not all they do. They have other attributes apart form making 5 yard passes. What we need from him is to contribute more either defensively like Busquets does or in attack like Xavi.
Last season Cleverley and Carrick was in the midfield that beat Chelsea, City, Liverpool and Arsenal. Now that's not to say he was a massive difference. Maybe we would have won those without him, however, he must have been doing something right last season for SAF to pick him in most of the 'big games'.
Now you talk about "just making 5 yard passes and being an outlet". It may sound easy, but this is what we've seriously been lacking this season. Our approach/build up play is completely non-existent. Those little 5 yard passes can be difference to us starting an attack. Receiving off the back four and playing a nice little pass round the corner or playing a one-two with a player. For example, if you look at the video I posted, at 1.05 Cleverley drops short to receive the ball off Evans, who then plays a one-two with Young, then passes it to Carrick who I can imagine started an attack but it didn't show it.
If you look at Barca, Bayern, etc - teams that keep the ball very well, that's the type of football they play. Pass, move, pass, move. Little 5 yard passes.
Don't get me wrong, your probably trying to make out that I think Cleverz is a world class player; i'm not. I just saying the things Cleverley did well last season went massively unnoticed, in my opinion. This season he's not doing it, due to a lack of confidence, it's showing in our play. To add to this, we play too far apart from each other as a team.
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