I signed the petition. I sign every petition that's for a good cause.
Just kidding.
Just kidding.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter Bebe
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Why try and stop Cleverley playing for England? at least let me get some joy out of the lads performances..
Wow that is low. Said it earlier...he's done himself few favours but there's no need for this witch hunt...he didn't select himself. Blame the manager.
We should keep him. He's United through and through, young, decent enough and we have piles more shit to get rid of.
He wouldn't kick a ball at any of the top 5 or 6 clubs in Europe though.
He wouldn't kick a ball at any of the top 5 or 6 clubs in Europe though.
That doesn't matter.
It does when he's practically first choice to partner Carrick though. If he's staying here he should be a squad player at best, not one of our main players.
He was hyped on the basis of a mythologised three and a half games in August and September 2011 (early season being a notoriously unreliable guide as well) - that is where the comparison to one or two game wonders comes in. It is now February 2014 and in less than six months he will be 25. Sure, he's put in some ok performances in the intervening two and a half years but nothing more than that. Nothing game changing. Nothing to make you sit up and think we have a real talent on our hands. After here, he will most likely end up playing for a team in the lower half of the PL. Is that is his fault? Of course not, he is doing his best, but the fact he came through the academy does not mean we have to suspend critical judgement. He is not United starting XI quality, and, if we look back as a point of reference to the day when players like Fletcher or Park were back up, he is not really even squad quality.
It doesn't matter for me because his worth to us differs from his worth to other clubs. Cleverley being a first team player has more to do with our lack of options than him being a quality fit in our system IMO. He doesn't suit a two-man midfield, it's clear. He's lightweight and struggles defensively (though he has improved on this aspect this season), and he's not going to play great passes to the wings because that isn't his style. Look at the way Jones handled Giroud against Arsenal by moving across him and getting the ball. Cleverley attempted the same thing and got murdered. In our present system, he isn't going to find the options he needs in the middle. There is no interplay, he's a pass-and-move type of player. Two of his "best" performances - against Manchester City and Shakhtar Donetsk - happened because we played well down the middle, there was variation.
Where is the variation in our play for most of the games this season? Our system is so risky. Since it's wing-oriented, with Rooney not dropping as frequently as he should (down to Moyes mostly) it means that the central midfielders have to do a lot of work. And when we lose the ball, there is a massive gap in the middle, and with us usually being overrun in midfield, it's hard to cover all that space. In the picture above (cut from the Cardiff game), it shows how we've been playing under Moyes. Rooney has been deployed as a second striker, rather than a number 10, so he doesn't drop back that much compared to last season. Look at Cleverley's options. Manchester United are losing the midfield battle - he only has Fellani, Evra, or the centre-backs as options. I've also uploaded Cleverley's special signature move (pass and move) as an example above. Credit to whoever uploaded interplay against Fulham in 11/12.
I defend every player equally and have no favourites. I just think Cleverley is an easy scapegoat this season, when the problem is a bit deeper than "Oh he doesn't have a great passing range", or whatever. Two of his best attributes are his pressing and his crossing, so it's a bit surprising to see him not being played on the right. I'm not fully excusing him of his poor performances, as he's still not showing the sort of ambition and innovation we all seen in his first season and first half of last season, but he's certainly not a mediocre player for those saying he is.
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Signed the petition.
And that's because Moyes wasted £27.5 on a player who isn't an upgrade on the ones we already had, whilst overlooking better players.
I don't rate him at all
But
Anyone who thinks the petition is funny or signed it or even thinks it's a good idea is an utter tool!!
There is no need for it! He's a human being who plays football for God's sake!!
And anyways, he's played better for England then he has for us
But
Anyone who thinks the petition is funny or signed it or even thinks it's a good idea is an utter tool!!
There is no need for it! He's a human being who plays football for God's sake!!
And anyways, he's played better for England then he has for us
I bet @SteveJ started that petition. He's a proper mean cnut these days.
Funnily he has been hyped for games that you don't seem to rate at all judging from your previous posts. Those were the games we "shipped endless goals"
Well, I suppose it's meant for Woy, as you said, Cleverley won't be picking himself for the WC.
Woy won't forget his old pal Fergie
Fergie is all out of favors! Moyes is calling the shots now. Woy may resent Moyes for getting the time Liverpool didn't give to him!
Agreed. He has it in for him.
MM is right, his good performances primarily come from a three man midfield because he isn't physical enough to do it in a 2 man midfield; it's like putting Kagawa alongside Carrick (albeit that would be an improvement). I find he breaks up our attack so much that he can be detrimental, him and a Valencia combination is just heartbreaking.
I really do wonder if TC would actually be any good for a lower tier team. He's done when the team is playing well around him but, how often, if ever, has he been the one shining light in an overall poor team performance?
As a CM he just doesn't come to the fore when needed. Per his own admission, he keeps things ticking along - that only helps when there is something to keep ticking over. Being a passenger at a lower tier club just won't cut it, he'll need to be able to add something when everyone else around him is mediocre. I mean he doesn't look good in this team, that isn't performing any better than a lower tier club, how can he be expected to do well if he moves? Just because he once played for Manchester United and came through their academy?
Only way he can is if changes his approach to games, he can't be the passenger, he can't be the one that keeps things ticking over, at some point he needs to be either a player that is good defensively or one that can help with getting forward. This whole in between the two makes him completely useless.
As a CM he just doesn't come to the fore when needed. Per his own admission, he keeps things ticking along - that only helps when there is something to keep ticking over. Being a passenger at a lower tier club just won't cut it, he'll need to be able to add something when everyone else around him is mediocre. I mean he doesn't look good in this team, that isn't performing any better than a lower tier club, how can he be expected to do well if he moves? Just because he once played for Manchester United and came through their academy?
Only way he can is if changes his approach to games, he can't be the passenger, he can't be the one that keeps things ticking over, at some point he needs to be either a player that is good defensively or one that can help with getting forward. This whole in between the two makes him completely useless.
It isn't even that he only does well when the team is playing well around him. How is a player whose main strength is to pass and move with players in close proximity, meant to play well in this team that is becoming increasingly more stagnant, lacks any reasonable kind of off the ball movement and has players so far apart and spread out across the width of the pitch? It's impossible conditions for most of our players and it's no coincidence lots of them are looking poor, and a shadow of their former selves. We aren't playing to anyone's strengths. Cleverley's best games this season have come when Rooney has dropped deep into a midfield three. Something he seems not to have done since Carrick regained fitness. Rooney provides an extra outlet so Cleverley can pass and move more effectively. He helps us play at a higher tempo and whilst everyone can accept he isn't the most penetrative, he isn't completely useless like people are making out.
He's simply another victim of the way we are playing, he's not the reason we are playing the way we are.
He's simply another victim of the way we are playing, he's not the reason we are playing the way we are.
Yeah but he gets a comfy seat and a box at OT...At Anfield, they make him set with all the ex players and managers...We have our priorities right
Even in a pass/move type team, one needs to get the ball forward and one needs to provide options/angles. Something Tom has done only on rare occasions. When people describe him as a passenger, it's not because he only passes sideways but, it's because he doesn't do enough to get on the ball in games and when he does, he doesn't make things happen.
Also, the pass and move football has nothing do with his defensive capabilities. Watch how many times after the ball is lost in midfield he actually runs back, usually if he is not walking it's a jog at best. Having energy and all is great but, being weak in the tackle, letting guys get past him easily are not because of our style of play.
As for the team playing well - to me that includes when the team that has a lot of movement and people being active. We've seen how well TC can do in those types of games but, that's the problem - we are going to have games where that's not the case and being a CM player it's on him to at least not just let the game go by him.
Pass and move against Stoke.
I said at the beginning of the season that he will face a real struggle to make the plane to Brazil. As it stands, I think he will go, but that is because he's fortunate that time ran out. If there was more time for another player he'd have no chance. I'd bet on him not making the Euros squad in 2016.
He's rubbish. Get rid.
I just think it's sickening that someone would actually make a petition to try and keep any player out of the world cup. Granted he hasn't had the best of seasons, he's already stated that, I just think to single out a player like that is disgusting, in my opinion.
This is why I get a bit pissed off with the amount of abuse our fans give him. We've already got every other fan giving him stick. Like I said before, he's not having a great season, but giving him abuse won't make it any better. We, as fans, in my opinion, should support our players through the good and bad times. Tom was part of a title winning season last season and played his part in us achieving that.
This is the Tom Cleverley I want to see.
This is why I get a bit pissed off with the amount of abuse our fans give him. We've already got every other fan giving him stick. Like I said before, he's not having a great season, but giving him abuse won't make it any better. We, as fans, in my opinion, should support our players through the good and bad times. Tom was part of a title winning season last season and played his part in us achieving that.
This is the Tom Cleverley I want to see.
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That looks like a much more confident Cleverley than one we currently see. He never looked afraid of doing anything, and as a team, it resembled the relatively greater freedom that Sir Alex gave to his players than what Moyes gives to his players.
Regardless, Cleverley hasn't done well, this season, and he has to make sure that he can impress Moyes. In the coming seasons, I think that it'll be very likely that Moyes won't give Tom much football as he'll look to get new players in. Tom, himself, has to make sure that he impresses Moyes. His own performances, this season, haven't been that great, and Moyes will act upon Tom's performances, this season.
The number of times Tom has hid under his own shell won't help him at all.
He gets subbed out a lot for a centre midfielder. You can argue that the team is not playing well or is not being set up for his style of football, but a proper quality centre midfielder should be taking charge of games.
I like him, but there are too many passive passengers in the team. It's gotten to a point where I wouldn't be surprised if Moyes opts to sell him.
I like him, but there are too many passive passengers in the team. It's gotten to a point where I wouldn't be surprised if Moyes opts to sell him.
Why on earth would we sell him though? That makes no sense. Giggs and Anderson will be gone in the summer, Fletcher has limited time and certainly not able to be relied on and Carrick is into his later years at the club
+ we're needing him for the Europa League away games against Dinamo Moscow, HJK Helsinki and Astra Giurgiu
That's a lie. We all know we're missing the europa league spot.
8th place for us????
One of Arsenal, Manchester City or Everton will win the FA-Cup = 7th place is enough for Europa League
So i hope 8th place for us :feckOffEuropaLeague:
What point, that he can occasionally make a good run and produce nothing? I already knew that!
Point being that this has been missing in Cleverley's game for quite some time now, and that our system is also to blame. I'm not saying he's a great player or anything as absurd as that. But the problem is deeper than his poor performances this season.
Agreed. I've always a fan of his ability,and that he works well in 3 man midfield, but never has been top class. His ability and potential have been stunted by this notion to play him in a midifield two though.
8th place for us????
One of Arsenal, Manchester City or Everton will win the FA-Cup = 7th place is enough for Europa League
So i hope 8th place for us :feckOffEuropaLeague:
It depends on if the final is contested between 2 of those teams.
If it isnt it goes to the runners up.
Yeah yeah yeah right.....too much Capital One Cup today
What else would we do? He isn't close to being good enough to justify changing the formation. I'm not sure I buy it anyway, when he first broke through at United he played in a midfield two and looked pretty promising. The issue with Cleverley is that he has not kicked on with that potential or developed in a meaningful way. If anything he has actually regressed from the performances of late 2011.
Virtually all midfielders look better in a midfield three anyway, the same was said about Anderson for example, so I'm not sure why you're saying it like it is a positive. No shit he looks better there. He still isn't good enough.
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