Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

[OJKernow]

I'm not going to say that Cleverley has been brilliant this season, or that he is the super star midfielder that we desperately need, but I do agree with @Stack in that he has been unfairly made a scapegoat in the way that Fletcher once was.

I also make a point of watching him more closely than other players during games and I think he is actually a very tidy and intelligent player, he's shot for confidence like the rest of the team and is obviously playing cautiously and not taking any 'risks' to avoid making a mistake that costs us more points.

My main worry (for him) is that if we go for a 4231 formation that certainly suits the attacking players that we have (and is a system I would like us to adopt) then I'm not sure where Cleverley fits in, he would probably be quite effective in the 'number 10' role but would obviously be behind Rooney, Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa to name a few. The problem is that I can't seem him suiting a more reserved holding roll either, in the way that Carrick and Fletcher may be used.

I'd like us to stick by him, he can't be on mega wages and we wouldn't make much money selling him so lets continue to use him as a squad player, you never know he may step out of his shell and up his game to warrant a more regular place at some point. He's shown glimpses so there is definitely 'something' there to unlock.

 

[relx]

The Cleverley bashing reminds me of Fletcher's 9-10 years ago...

 

[Beachryan]

I just think it comes down to what he's being asked to do. More or less his entire professional career he's been attack-minded. He actually started further up the pitch, did well there for Watford and Wigan, and when he came back our dominance of matches meant he was mainly in the opponent's half.

Now that we've become utterly terrible, it means he has to defend, even moreso as part of a midfield 2. And he's not very good at defending. People think it's easy to 'screen the back 4' and 'get in good positions' defensively, but it's really not. It's the reason that players like Michael Carrick are so valued by their fellow pros. Cleverely has never really had to test his defensive skills at the highest level, and they're not up to scratch. So we're exposed every time he's part of a midfield 2, because he isn't a great tackler, doesn't have great positioning and doesn't have the recovery speed (of foot or mind) to make up for it.

It's not really his fault though - as others have discussed, he seemed destined to be an 'inside-winger' or similar - playing up the pitch and creating, not trying to stop wave after wave of opposition attacks.

 

[Bojan11]

The Cleverley bashing reminds me of Fletcher's 9-10 years ago...

Fletcher was played on the right midfield. A position which he was far too slow for and his crossing at the time was very poor. Plus he was keeping out Ronaldo, who fans preferred to start.

I don't see the Fletcher comparisons. Cleverley has been given enough chances to make the position his.

 

[Stack]

Fletcher was played on the right midfield. A position which he was far too slow for and his crossing at the time was very poor. Plus he was keeping out Ronaldo, who fans preferred to start.

I don't see the Fletcher comparisons. Cleverley has been given enough chances to make the position his.

The Fletcher bashing was based around him losing possession. It had nothing to do with what you mention.

 

[George Owen]

Fletcher was played on the right midfield. A position which he was far too slow for and his crossing at the time was very poor. Plus he was keeping out Ronaldo, who fans preferred to start.

I don't see the Fletcher comparisons. Cleverley has been given enough chances to make the position his.

how is that possible when we dont even have a defined first eleven...

Put cleverley to play with the same 10 players for a while and you will see what he can bring to the team.

the same goes to all our players, including Fellaini and Kagawa.

 

[Bojan11]

how is that possible when we dont even have a defined first eleven...

Put cleverley to play with the same 10 players for a while and you will see what he can bring to the team.

the same goes to all our players, including Fellaini and Kagawa.

So 15 starts this season is not enough? He has been given enough chances to step up with Fellaini and Carrick injured. He has not shown anything defending or attacking wise.

So he should only play well when we got our full starting 11. He's not playing with strangers. He's been in the team for 3 years now and is 24.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So 15 starts this season is not enough? He has been given enough chances to step up with Fellaini and Carrick injured. He has not shown anything defending or attacking wise.

So he should only play well when we got our full starting 11. He's not playing with strangers. He's been in the team for 3 years now and is 24.

No but it would help if he wasn't expected to "step up" alongside a more senior midfield partner who was carrying an injury or out of form (or both).

Playing in central midfield as a young footballer is tricky enough, doing it on your own...

 

[2 man midfield]

I think we'd be daft to get rid, especially at a time when we're likely to see a few exits. He's good enough to keep some sort of place here.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

Why is he still thought of as 'young'. He's past 24 now. As far as footballers go that isn't young anymore.

 

[Blue always red]

Fletcher was played on the right midfield. A position which he was far too slow for and his crossing at the time was very poor. Plus he was keeping out Ronaldo, who fans preferred to start.

I don't see the Fletcher comparisons. Cleverley has been given enough chances to make the position his.

Fletch was deployed on the right of midfield, Cleverley is tasked with giving the ball to Carrick. Both stuck in positions that 'benefit' the team more than if they played their normal game. The comparisons between Cleverley and Fletcher are justified in my opinion.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

24 is young. Especially for a CM.

Peope always think about prodigies like Wilshere or Fabregas as thoug that's the norm. Carrick or Lampard would be more the norm (and they're both exceptional players)

 

[Stack]

Fletch was deployed on the right of midfield, Cleverley is tasked with giving the ball to Carrick. Both stuck in positions that 'benefit' the team more than if they played their normal game. The comparisons between Cleverley and Fletcher are justified in my opinion.

The Fletcher comparison from me isnt about the playing styles etc. Its about the criticism often being based on a mistake made early in a game and then that being used as the judgement of an entire game. The comparison is that Cleverley is currently getting the same sort of treatment Fletcher did where the bashing starts to be based on people hopping on a band wagon and it all becoming abusive rather than analytical.

 

[Blue always red]

The Fletcher comparison from me isnt about the playing styles etc. Its about the criticism often being based on a mistake made early in a game and then that being used as the judgement of an entire game. The comparison is that Cleverley is currently getting the same sort of treatment Fletcher did where the bashing starts to be based on people hopping on a band wagon and it all becoming abusive rather than analytical.

I agree, and I think my post was abit unclear. I meant that the comparisons between the treatment they received is justified, not their playing style.

 

[Ash_G]

Thats more down to him growing as footballer than his natural make up. He can play creative balls he just needs the confidence to do it. Like Carrick did.

Carrick even when he wasn't as popular still played penetrative passes, not as many as he could but he still contributed and he was also covering for scholes. Clev might not have the confidence to play those passes and may or may not have it in his locker but unlike carrick he doesn't have the defensive aspect to his game.

 

[togg]

Cleverly burst onto the scene in a way...got into the England side really quickly and that raised expectations so much in my mind, beyond his natural development. Just shows how poor the England team is really. It's happened very fast for him and he just needs to catch up a bit with everything. I feel he's one of those players that will suddenly "click"...just find that football light and become a dam great player for us. Just a feeling...but it makes me want united to make sure to keep him and let him develope completely.

 

[nimic]

24 is young. Especially for a CM.

Peope always think about prodigies like Wilshere or Fabregas as thoug that's the norm. Carrick or Lampard would be more the norm (and they're both exceptional players)

Yes, but then Carrick was 25 when we signed him, and Lampard was 23 when he signed for West Ham. I couldn't say for sure about Lampard, but Carrick had definitely shown a lot more than Cleverley has so far.

 

[LR7]

The way he's become a scapegoat lately is pathetic. He's far from the only player who has had a less than memorable season so far but that doesn't mean he's shit and we should sell him.

The way I see it is that we need to prioritise passing through the middle rather than largely down the flanks, and it's no wonder so many of our central players pass maps look so poor when they're spreading the ball wide so often. In addition the way we play so spread out and with such little off the ball movement makes his pass and move style of play extremely difficult.

I'm hoping we play a bit more compact (mata/januzaj/Kagawa as inside forwards, not pinned out wide) and get a short passing game going and I bet Cleverley will look a million times better.

Stack is right. He's played several good passes this season but they go unnoticed because people only want to storm in here as soon as he does something wrong so that they can blame him for the entire teams malaise.

 

[Cantona'sCollar]

To think that many fans thought he would be the answer to Scholes and that Pogba was over rated just shows how wrong fans and even managers can be with judgement....I'm pretty sure even Fergie thought Cleverley would take over the Scholes role.......

Sorry to go off-topic, but reading that does remind me how we (along with Fergie, to be fair) spoke often of how Cleverley was going to be our new Scholes. It is things like this that make me truly appreciate Scholes - even at 37 and unable to run, he was just hundreds of levels above Cleverley's top level (no criticism to Tom as this applies to almost every midfielder bar Zidane, & I think Cleverley will turn out to be a good player), literally in a different galaxy. I know i'm being captain obvious here and it doesn't need saying, but Scholes was just so good. Unbelievable player. If I could clone anyone, it would be him.

 

[Sir A1ex]

I couldn't say for sure about Lampard, but Carrick had definitely shown a lot more than Cleverley has so far.

Hard to say that for sure, given their contrasting situations. I'm fairly confident that if Cleverley had come through at a club like West Ham, he'd have moved to a club like Spurs, and by his mid-20s would be the sort of player we'd be eyeing up. It's not like Carrick was world class when we signed him, and even afterwards the jury was still out for 2 or 3 seasons.

 

[LR7]

Sorry to go off-topic, but reading that does remind me how we (along with Fergie, to be fair) spoke often of how Cleverley was going to be our new Scholes. It is things like this that make me truly appreciate Scholes - even at 37 and unable to run, he was just hundreds of levels above Cleverley's top level (no criticism to Tom as this applies to almost every midfielder bar Zidane, & I think Cleverley will turn out to be a good player), literally in a different galaxy. I know i'm being captain obvious here and it doesn't need saying, but Scholes was just so good. Unbelievable player. If I could clone anyone, it would be him.

Fergie did that with Powell last season. I think it's just to motivate the players tbf.

 

[nimic]

Hard to say that for sure, given their contrasting situations. I'm fairly confident that if Cleverley had come through at a club like West Ham, he'd have moved to a club like Spurs, and by his mid-20s would be the sort of player we'd be eyeing up. It's not like Carrick was world class when we signed him, and even afterwards the jury was still out for 2 or 3 seasons.

He might not have been world class, but he was definitely a lot better than Cleverley is now. He got a lot of initial flak for basically not being Keane, which made people overly critical of him, but he was instrumental in a season that saw us regain the title after three years without, and that with us playing some of the best football we had in the few years before or since. Cleverley just doesn't have that impact. Perhaps it's unfair to expect him to have (he is, after all, still younger).

 

[Cantona'sCollar]

Fergie did that with Powell last season. I think it's just to motivate the players tbf.

Of course - I don't think anyone actually expected he would become half the player. It's normally just from the manager to give them some confidence. There was a time, though, around summer 2011, when we were talking about him being a Scholes lite, talking about how 'un-English' he is in the way he passed and moved, etc etc. I miss Scholes!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yes, but then Carrick was 25 when we signed him, and Lampard was 23 when he signed for West Ham. I couldn't say for sure about Lampard, but Carrick had definitely shown a lot more than Cleverley has so far.

Definitely shown a lot more? Really? How do you figure that?

Carrick's first really impressive season at Spurs was when he was older than cleverley is now. The season before that they finished 9th and he was only just establishing himself as a first team regular.

Prior to that he'd impressed a division below and struggled to get games for Spurs in the top tier. Arguably behind where Cleverley was at the same age.

The fact that Lampard had only been at West Ham for a year (never mind Chelsea) when he was 24 also kind of prove my point.

Worth stressing that they both turned out as top class players. It would be brilliant news for United if Clev turned out as good.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

By the way, i know I'm being pedantic (as usual!) but a year or two either way is no big deal. Players develop at different rates. Even if Cleverley doesn't develop at the same rate as Carrick or Lampard he could still be a very good player.

Granted, Henderson and Ramsey are a year younger but they both went from zero to hero in a single season. Sometimes it just takes a single season where everything falls into place. That might yet happen to Cleverley. His managers have all rated him very highly for a reason.

 

[nimic]

Definitely shown a lot more? Really? How do you figure that?

Carrick's first really impressive season at Spurs was when he was older than cleverley is now.

Yes, and in that season he was 24. Cleverley is 24 now, and has had a lot of opportunities to prove himself so far this season. He hasn't just not improved, though, he seems to have regressed.

Again, I was never out to compare Cleverley and Carrick, they're different players and under difference circumstances. But that also means you can't really go "look at Carrick, he turned out good".

 

[Pogue Mahone]

[/b]Yes, and in that season he was 24. Cleverley is 24 now, and has had a lot of opportunities to prove himself so far this season. He hasn't just not improved, though, he seems to have regressed.[/b]

Again, I was never out to compare Cleverley and Carrick, they're different players and under difference circumstances. But that also means you can't really go "look at Carrick, he turned out good".

Carrick was playing for a team having a great season (for them) Cleverley the complete opposite. Not really comparable. And Carrick was the older of the two (not that 6 months here or there really matters)

 

[LR7]

Of course - I don't think anyone actually expected he would become half the player. It's normally just from the manager to give them some confidence. There was a time, though, around summer 2011, when we were talking about him being a Scholes lite, talking about how 'un-English' he is in the way he passed and moved, etc etc. I miss Scholes!

He's still a good passer and mover imo the problem is more to do with the way that the way we are playing atm than individuals, everyone just seems like another vehicle to get the ball wide. Carrick hasn't covered himself in any glory this season and I don't for a second believe he's become shit overnight either, it's just hard for CMs to look decent when we are playing the way we are.

I'm not trying to be overly critical of Moyes but I bet Cleverley wouldn't look nearly as poor as he has this season in Everton's high possession/high movement system.

 

[nimic]

Carrick was playing for a team having a great season (for them) Cleverley the complete opposite. Not really comparable. And Carrick was the older of the two (not that 6 months here or there really matters)

Not that it matters, as you said, but Carrick's birthday is two weeks before Cleverley's

 

[jem]

Yup. He also said this:



When he was at Watford, Malky Mackay said;

“

The problem is that the promising player from several seasons looks nothing like the Cleverley we see now. The same goes for Valencia. We can debate all day why this is the case, but the fact of the matter is that both players have consistently been putting in sub-par performances for a team that has designs on winning the premiership. It's just not good enough (and Cleverley would hardly be the first player to fail to capitalize on an promising start.)

 

[jem]

Absolutely pointless. How about we rate him on the basis of how he actually performs than grindig out some quotes from a manager that he played for.
Remember how much praise Fergie had for Anderson? I bet you can find those kind of quotes about many many players that didnt make it in the end.
Judging him on this and last season he has been hugely dissapointing and looks like United is at least one stage too big for him.

Or how about the words SAF had for Buttner upon signing him? Even the great ones get it wrong from time to time, let alone the Mackays of the world.

 

[Cheesy]

Even though players develop at different rates and some have flourished later in their careers, for every struggling player who goes on to become a top midfielder at a top club, you'll get midfielders like Anderson who are continuously expected to improve but never really do. Perhaps Cleverley will develop into a really good player, but he's not really shown enough to suggest he will be so far, so it's not unreasonable for people to assume he won't succeed as anymore than a squad player.

 

[jem]

By the way, i know I'm being pedantic (as usual!) but a year or two either way is no big deal. Players develop at different rates. Even if Cleverley doesn't develop at the same rate as Carrick or Lampard he could still be a very good player.

Granted, Henderson and Ramsey are a year younger but they both went from zero to hero in a single season. Sometimes it just takes a single season where everything falls into place. That might yet happen to Cleverley. His managers have all rated him very highly for a reason.

And that is why it would be worth keeping him as a squad option. But there's no way he should be starting for us these days. What I'd love to see is for him to follow the example of the guy who should be starting ahead of him these days: Darren Fletcher.

 

[MDFC Manager]

He simply lacks the presence to do well in a 2 man midfield like ours. In that role, imo he's not even a good enough squad player for us. Well at the moment he is, but that's due to lack of better options.

 

[Cantona'sCollar]

He's still a good passer and mover imo the problem is more to do with the way that the way we are playing atm than individuals, everyone just seems like another vehicle to get the ball wide. Carrick hasn't covered himself in any glory this season and I don't for a second believe he's become shit overnight either, it's just hard for CMs to look decent when we are playing the way we are.

I'm not trying to be overly critical of Moyes but I bet Cleverley wouldn't look nearly as poor as he has this season in Everton's high possession/high movement system.

Ah of course - he is a very good short passer and, when playing well (when), makes the midfield tick. I do rate him. Unfortunately for him, Carrick seems a little jaded this season and no one else is up to the task (bar Fletch, at a stretch), while Cleverley himself isn't actually ready to be a first choice player for United (through no fault of his own, as not everyone is a Lampard) and he still has some developing to do. Whether, however, he actually develops accordingly, is another question. Can we afford such a passenger?

If we reinforce in the summer, perhaps it will spell the end of his chances here, unless he's happy to warm the bench and be called upon when needed on occasion (which is no problem at all). Who knows how he will turn out. He's clearly a talented player who is intelligent and has a good attitude, but he has a lot to prove. Agreed with all your points, though, especially the last one about Everton. I'm sure if we always played a midfield three, he'd look a lot better. It's a matter of style.

I was just going on a tangent about Scholes, though. You really don't appreciate what you have until it's gone!

 

[Nighteyes]

Ah of course - he is a very good short passer and, when playing well (when), makes the midfield tick. I do rate him. Unfortunately for him, Carrick seems a little jaded this season and no one else is up to the task (bar Fletch, at a stretch), while Cleverley himself isn't actually ready to be a first choice player for United (through no fault of his own, as not everyone is a Lampard) and he still has some developing to do. Whether, however, he actually develops accordingly, is another question. Can we afford such a passenger?

If we reinforce in the summer, perhaps it will spell the end of his chances here, unless he's happy to warm the bench and be called upon when needed on occasion (which is no problem at all). Who knows how he will turn out. He's clearly a talented player who is intelligent and has a good attitude, but he has a lot to prove. Agreed with all your points, though, especially the last one about Everton. I'm sure if we always played a midfield three, he'd look a lot better. It's a matter of style.

I was just going on a tangent about Scholes, though. You really don't appreciate what you have until it's gone!

I hope not.

I genuinely think he would look a lot better in a different system. People wank to Henderson these days but imo Cleverley would look just as good in that Liverpool side.

 

[LR7]

I hope not.

I genuinely think he would look a lot better in a different system. People wank to Henderson these days but imo Cleverley would look just as good in that Liverpool side.

Yeah, unfortunately nothing we've seen so far points to utilising any other system. Rodgers was changing the way Liverpool play from last season. They were ropey with it but you could see what he was trying to do. There's no indication of that here.

 

[Varun]

I hope not.

I genuinely think he would look a lot better in a different system. People wank to Henderson these days but imo Cleverley would look just as good in that Liverpool side.

Same here. Our system simply put, doesnt get the best out of the players we have. Unless that changes, we could spend 35mil on Kroos and play him next to Carrick, and even he would look nothing like the Kroos we know. Unless we're going out and buying 3 CMs this summer, Clev should stay

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I said it before and I'll say it again. He is having a crisis of self belief. Moyes and his staff should target improving on it like SAF and co did when Evans had the same issue.

 

[KM]

I think that Cleverley's having a crisis of self belief. Evans had the same but Fergie and co improved that, Moyes and his staff should target the same.