Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

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Ash_G said:
I don't think he would do that we'll because whilst he might retain possession he rarely does anything with it.

If you look at any top team who look for a more possession based approach I can't think of any teams that have a player where all he does is play it safe, there's always another role he plays, ie busquets is the holding player.

Clev doesn't defend well and he lacks the ability/willingness to execute creative passes. I think he'd look more comfortable in a more narrow possession based team but I think the inherent shortfalls in his game would still mean that he'd be someone who fits in when you're playing well and isn't going to change anything if you're not.
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Thats more down to him growing as footballer than his natural make up. He can play creative balls he just needs the confidence to do it. Like Carrick did.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Hmmm... It seems that arguably the Premier League's manager of the season so far sees something in Cleverley that the rest of you don't.

Maybe he's just finding it hard to play as part of a team that's having a season from hell? Just like almost everyone else in our squad?
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I know those quotes but let's put them into some perspective. Cleverley was at that time a 21-22 year old midfielder who could develop into a world class player. It's not that we haven't seen this Cleverley at Manchester United, it's just been over 2 years. Since that Davies tackle, was there a time when you thought finally we could have a great CM again? After that he was "neat and tidy" at his best, which means a safe passer who ultimately contributes very little to the game.

Cleverley is now 24 and got benched in favour of a returning Fletcher for our most important game this season so far, the 2nd game against Sunderland and our only chance for a trophy this seaosn. No injuries or anything, he simply hasn't improved the way we hoped for. I'm not against keeping him, but we shouldn't need to count on him as a valuable squad player as we did this season.
 
He'll never be a first choice for us (or shouldn't be) but he is a very good squad player to have. Saying he's not even a premier league footballer is just plain daft.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Bit of a daft comment, if it's in any way related to the quotes I posted above, which clearly indicated that his managers at "their level" had clear expectations he would go on to better things.
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Fair enough if they said that. Unfortunately their expectations have yet to be realized, at least not at United. Squad player at best.
 
Anderson18 said:
I know those quotes but let's put them into some perspective. Cleverley was at that time a 21-22 year old midfielder who could develop into a world class player. It's not that we haven't seen this Cleverley at Manchester United, it's just been over 2 years. Since that Davies tackle, was there a time when you thought finally we could have a great CM again? After that he was "neat and tidy" at his best, which means a safe passer who ultimately contributes very little to the game.

Cleverley is now 24 and got benched in favour of a returning Fletcher for our most important game this season so far, the 2nd game against Sunderland and our only chance for a trophy this seaosn. No injuries or anything, he simply hasn't improved the way we hoped for. I'm not against keeping him, but we shouldn't need to count on him as a valuable squad player as we did this season.
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Ah come on, potentially world class? No way, never even remotely close to it, not even in that whole ... month that he played well when he broke into the squad. Here's the problem with an academy player, they have a good start, they get hyped up to no end, they ultimately show they're not actually at that level, and then it goes to the absolute opposite end of the spectrum. I said during that spell that I didn't think he was anything special, just a good midfielder, potentially a very solid and reliable one, and got absolutely blasted on here for it (by such esteemed posters as Pogue and Brwned), simply for saying I didn't think he'd become an amazing player, what a negative bastard I am! Here we are nearly three years later and here is he showing that he is in fact, nothing special. He has no outstanding traits, no balls, nothing to ever suggest he'll be a world-class midfielder in a particular area, just good.

is it so hard to reach a middle ground with players like him and Welbeck? To come to the conclusion that they're players who are good enough to merit a squad place at Utd but are clearly not of the standard to be these majestic figures they were at a point labelled to be?
 
Anderson18 said:
I know those quotes but let's put them into some perspective. Cleverley was at that time a 21-22 year old midfielder who could develop into a world class player. It's not that we haven't seen this Cleverley at Manchester United, it's just been over 2 years. Since that Davies tackle, was there a time when you thought finally we could have a great CM again? After that he was "neat and tidy" at his best, which means a safe passer who ultimately contributes very little to the game.

Cleverley is now 24 and got benched in favour of a returning Fletcher for our most important game this season so far, the 2nd game against Sunderland and our only chance for a trophy this seaosn. No injuries or anything, he simply hasn't improved the way we hoped for. I'm not against keeping him, but we shouldn't need to count on him as a valuable squad player as we did this season.
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Exactly. Up until this season his problem at United has been badly time injuries. When he looked like really kicking on, he tended to pick up a bad injury. The potential was always clear to see.

This season he's one of about half a dozen players who are miles off the pace, playing for a struggling team. He's become a scapegoat for a systemic malaise. Plus, the qualities he brings to the team will be the hardest to showcase when nobody else around him is on their game. If/when we get back to playing some decent football again and if he can have a bit of luck with injuries then there's every chance he'll show why he's been so highly rated by so many managers.
 
Raoul said:
Fair enough if they said that. Unfortunately their expectations have yet to be realized, at least not at United. Squad player at best.
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Not consistently, no. You'd have to be blind not to see what he is capable of when he's at his best though. Like a lot of young players, he's struggled to perform at a consistent level though. This has been exacerbated by injuries, a problem he only seems to have overcome now the team is in free-fall. Which is just more bad luck.

Don't know how anyone can make definitive statements about him being "a squad player at best" when it's been obvious that his best is very good indeed. The problem has been keeping him at his best.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Not consistently, no. You'd have to be blind not to see what he is capable of when he's at his best though. Like a lot of young players, he's struggled to perform at a consistent level though. This has been exacerbated by injuries, a problem he only seems to have overcome now the team is in free-fall. Which is just more bad luck.

Don't know how anyone can make definitive statements about him being x, y, z "at best" when it's been obvious that his best is very good indeed. The problem has been keeping him at his best.
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This can be said of any number of players. The broader issue when evaluating someone like Cleverley is whether he is good enough to be a part of a side that is consistently competing for CLs and league titles. Look at the quality the likes of Barca, Bayern, City, Chelsea, and Madrid have. Cleverley is not likely to meet such a high standard, and as much as it would be great to see a youth player excel in the first team, I don't think Cleverely is that player.
 
Cina said:
Ah come on, potentially world class? No way, never even remotely close to it, not even in that whole ... month that he played well when he broke into the squad. Here's the problem with an academy player, they have a good start, they get hyped up to no end, they ultimately show they're not actually at that level, and then it goes to the absolute opposite end of the spectrum. I said during that spell that I didn't think he was anything special, just a good midfielder, potentially a very solid and reliable one, and got absolutely blasted on here for it (by such esteemed posters as Pogue and Brwned), simply for saying I didn't think he'd become an amazing player, what a negative bastard I am! Here we are nearly three years later and here is he showing that he is in fact, nothing special. He has no outstanding traits, no balls, nothing to ever suggest he'll be a world-class midfielder in a particular area, just good.

is it so hard to reach a middle ground with players like him and Welbeck? To come to the conclusion that they're players who are good enough to merit a squad place at Utd but are clearly not of the standard to be these majestic figures they were at a point labelled to be?
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A 22 year old CM that changed our whole game against City and looked like Scholes heir in his first games? CM is such a hard position to play in and given his age and performances the thought of him becoming world class wasn't that far fetched. Him and Anderson made us play our best football since probably 2006-07 and he was a major part of it. But I have to agree with you now. Neither Welbeck or Cleverley looks to be anything remotely we'd hope we get out of them. Cleverley was compared to Wilshere and Welbeck compared to Sturridge and the both of them developed into very good players, while Welbeck and Cleverley look to have stagniated at best, maybe even regressed, Such a shame but's the sad truth right now.

@Pogue Mahone Right now he shows no signs of being anything special. I observed him over the last few matches and compared it to his break out games and the difference was like night and day. In his first games he played with much more energy and got into great positions to help his teammates. Also he was far more effective as he played short passes in the opponent half that really made us play faster. Now the last games he mostly gets the ball on the half line, passes it to the nearest teammate and runs into a marked zone. It wasn't because of injuries either, as he was fit this whole season and still got replaced by Fletcher. I mean if he can't be a starter in the mess we have right now, how can we ever count on him to be atleast a valuable squad player? I haven't given hope on him up yet, but if he still plays like against Stoke until the end of the season, there is simply no place for him here.
 
Raoul said:
This can be said of any number of players. The broader issue when evaluating someone like Cleverley is whether he is good enough to be a part of a side that is consistently competing for CLs and league titles. Look at the quality the likes of Barca, Bayern, City, Chelsea, and Madrid have. Cleverley is not likely to meet such a high standard, and as much as it would be great to see a youth player excel in the first team, I don't think Cleverely is that player.
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Players develop at different rates. Central midfielders in particular take time to mature. Schweinsteiger was 25 before he even started playing in the centre of the park for Bayern. When Fletcher was Cleverley's age he was constantly dismissed as never being good enough for United. Turned out to be a really important player in our recent success, both domestically and abroad.

If there wasn't a plausible explanation (which I outlined above) for Cleverley's development stalling this last couple of years then I would be a lot more concerned. As it stands, there's more reasons to think he can go on and be a key player for us then reasons he won't. We'll get a good idea of what he's capable of if/when Moyes gets the team on a decent run, of performances and results, and we start to play with a bit of confidence. There's every chance Cleverley could follow a similar path to Ramsey and Henderson in this scenario. If he's still off the pace at this point then, fair enough, meanwhile people are being far too hasty to write him off.
 
Anderson18 said:
@Pogue Mahone Right now he shows no signs of being anything special. I observed him over the last few matches and compared it to his break out games and the difference was like night and day. In his first games he played with much more energy and got into great positions to help his teammates. Also he was far more effective as he played short passes in the opponent half that really made us play faster. Now the last games he mostly gets the ball on the half line, passes it to the nearest teammate and runs into a marked zone. It wasn't because of injuries either, as he was fit this whole season and still got replaced by Fletcher. I mean if he can't be a starter in the mess we have right now, how can we ever count on him to be atleast a valuable squad player? I haven't given hope on him up yet, but if he still plays like against Stoke until the end of the season, there is simply no place for him here.
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He's playing like someone completely bereft of confidence. A theme for almost every player in our team, struggling to adapt to the loss of Fergie.
 
Anderson18 said:
A 22 year old CM that changed our whole game against City and looked like Scholes heir in his first games? CM is such a hard position to play in and given his age and performances the thought of him becoming world class wasn't that far fetched. Him and Anderson made us play our best football since probably 2006-07 and he was a major part of it. But I have to agree with you now. Neither Welbeck or Cleverley looks to be anything remotely we'd hope we get out of them. Cleverley was compared to Wilshere and Welbeck compared to Sturridge and the both of them developed into very good players, while Welbeck and Cleverley look to have stagniated at best, maybe even regressed, Such a shame but's the sad truth right now.
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I'm sorry, but that seems so flawed to me. He had some good/very good early performances and all of a sudden he's the heir to one of the best midfielders in the modern game? Seriously? Also, going by that logic you could argue that our entire XI in that month was potentially world class because everyone of them was having very good games (and quite a lot were better than him), in fact you could argue that any youngster who performs to a good level for a month is potentially world class, it makes little sense to me. An 18 year old Wilshere looked potentially world class for Arsenal because he was very, very good for almost the entire season. Cleverley had a really good month when the whole team was in great form and that's about it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Players develop at different rates. Central midfielders in particular take time to mature. Schweinsteiger was 25 before he even started playing in the centre of the park for Bayern. When Fletcher was Cleverley's age he was constantly dismissed as never being good enough for United. Turned out to be a really important player in our recent success, both domestically and abroad.

If there wasn't a plausible explanation (which I outlined above) for Cleverley's development stalling this last couple of years then I would be a lot more concerned. As it stands, there's more reasons to think he can go on and be a key player for us then reasons he won't. We'll get a good idea of what he's capable of if/when Moyes gets the team on a decent run, of performances and results, and we start to play with a bit of confidence. There's every chance Cleverley could follow a similar path to Ramsey and Henderson in this scenario. If he's still off the pace at this point then, fair enough, meanwhile people are being far too hasty to write him off.
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Having bought Fellaini and Mata, and with Moyes likely to buy another midfielder or two this summer, and including Powell's return, the only way he would stay is as a bit part squad player. We really can't afford to compromise on bringing in quality midfield players any longer if we want to compete for league and CL titles.
 
Raoul said:
Having bought Fellaini and Mata, and with Moyes likely to buy another midfielder or two this summer, and including Powell's return, the only way he would stay is as a bit part squad player. We really can't afford to compromise on bringing in quality midfield players any longer if we want to compete for league and CL titles.
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I also think we can't compromise on sticking with our traditions of building teams around a nucleus of players brought up through the ranks. To me, that's a huge part of all our recent success (ditto for Barca and Bayern). Lunatic sugar daddy spending aside, that has to the template to succeed.

To me, Cleverley still has it all to play for but I don't think he'll stake a claim for his place until the team, as a whole, finds it's mojo.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I also think we can't compromise on sticking with our traditions of building teams around a nucleus of players brought up through the ranks. To me, that's a huge part of all our recent success. To me, Cleverley still has it all to play for but I don't think he'll stake a claim for his place until the team, as a whole, finds it's mojo.
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Which sort of tells you all you need to know about him, really. Surely a really good player should be able to influence games (especially from the center of the pitch) and take the game by the scruff of the neck when their team are under performing. Cleverely always looks pretty good when everyone else is playing really well around him and always looks shite when everyone else is playing poor. He's a pussy, quite frankly.
 
Cina said:
Which sort of tells you all you need to know about him, really. Surely a really good player should be able to influence games (especially from the center of the pitch) and take the game by the scruff of the neck when their team are under performing. Cleverely always looks pretty good when everyone else is playing really well around him and always looks shite when everyone else is playing poor. He's a pussy, quite frankly.
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Nah, that's bollox. Especially the snidey little insult at the end. Carrick's been a quality player for us but only very occasionally has he taken any game by the scruff of the neck. It;s just not the type of player or personality he is. We'd have won feck all without him this last half a dozen years or so. Lots of room for different personalities and attributes in the team. Not every CM has to be Roy Keane mark II.
 
Cina said:
I'm sorry, but that seems so flawed to me. He had some good/very good early performances and all of a sudden he's the heir to one of the best midfielders in the modern game? Seriously? Also, going by that logic you could argue that our entire XI in that month was potentially world class because everyone of them was having very good games (and quite a lot were better than him), in fact you could argue that any youngster who performs to a good level for a month is potentially world class, it makes little sense to me. An 18 year old Wilshere looked potentially world class for Arsenal because he was very, very good for almost the entire season. Cleverley had a really good month when the whole team was in great form and that's about it.
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I wasn't talking about being as good as Scholes. Just that he could become our creative CM that Scholes was. But seriously some guys forget how highly he rated he was in 2011.



That's Eric Harrison we're talking about.

@Pogue Mahone The problem with Cleverley is that nobody is as bad as him. We had some bad luck and pretty bad peformances but Cleverley this season, wow. A part from that one Chelsea game were he was decent at best I can't even remember when he had a good game. Atleast the other players showed glimpses of what we had. We've been talking about months that we need to improve and he simply hasn't. Like I said he has the luck of getting enough chances over the next months, but he should really take them.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Nah, that's bollox. Especially the snidey little insult at the end. Carrick's been a quality player for us but only very occasionally has he taken any game by the scruff of the neck. It;s just not the type of player or personality he is. We'd have won feck all without him this last half a dozen years or so. Lots of room for different personalities and attributes in the team. Not every CM has to be Roy Keane mark II.
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You mean apart from the entirety of last season or ... ?

I'm clearly not saying he has to be like Roy Keane, I'm saying he needs to perform when others do not, he needs to take initative and try to influence games when others do not, to take more risks to get us results, instead he's just happy to sit there, pass sidewards, be tidy and not go out of his way to win us the games, or put in performances of a higher standard than others.

What's snide about it? He is a pussy on the field, I'm not the only person to use that word about him.
 
Cina said:
You mean apart from the entirety of last season or ... ?

I'm clearly not saying he has to be like Roy Keane, I'm saying he needs to perform when others do not, he needs to take imitative and try to influence games when others do not, to take more risks to get us results, instead he's just happy to sit there, pass sidewards, be tidy and not go out of his way to win us the games, or put in performances of a higher standard than others.
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Well, exactly. At his absolute peak, approaching the age of 30, he finally began to become a dominant figure in central midfield. This was clearly the exception to the rule. Up until last season he was always more of a facilitator than a leader. And a bloody good one at that. Unless you're seriously trying to claim that Carrick has always been a player to take a game by the scruff of it's neck?

What's snide about it? He is a pussy on the field, I'm not the only person to use that word about him
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"But the other boys were doing it too..."
 
Anderson18 said:
@Pogue Mahone The problem with Cleverley is that nobody is as bad as him. We had some bad luck and pretty bad peformances but Cleverley this season, wow. A part from that one Chelsea game were he was decent at best I can't even remember when he had a good game. Atleast the other players showed glimpses of what we had. We've been talking about months that we need to improve and he simply hasn't. Like I said he has the luck of getting enough chances over the next months, but he should really take them.
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Played very well against City, coming off the bench.

But yeah, he's having a poor season. I wouldn't try and deny that. There are some obvious mitigating factors though.
 
I still have hope he'll turn into a good midfielder, he's just been a bit shit for a while. Not sure training and Moyes is helping Clev's game at all either.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Well, exactly. At his absolute peak, approaching the age of 30, he finally began to become a dominant figure in central midfield. This was clearly the exception to the rule. Up until last season he was always more of a facilitator than a leader. And a bloody good one at that. Unless you're seriously trying to claim that Carrick has always been a player to take a game by the scruff of it's neck?



"But the other boys were doing it too..."
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I'm saying Carrick has always been able to put in good performances when the team hasn't been playing that well, I thought that was obvious? Obviously not to the consistent level he did last season, but he still did. I don't know why you keep trying to convince me that I'm saying he has to be a Roy Keane like figure on the field, classic Pogue really, "no, no, you're wrong, here's what you actually said".

Is it so unreasonable to expect a central midfielder to put in good performances and make things happen when the rest of the team aren't performing well? Or should we just accept this notion that it's ok for a player to play shit as long as the rest of the team is playing shit too?
 
vijay said:
Dunno how he lost out completely.

Its not only him both Pele Jones and Smalling appear as massive misfits with every passing week.
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An over-reliance on experience and the unfounded pretence that United are great with youth is something to do with this. Smalling and Jones have been horribly mismanaged and I even saw this coming. I knew idiots would question their ability. I watched Scholes and Giggs - courtesy of Sir Alex's inability to let go - hold back our midfield and I've watched Rio do it to the defence, too. It's why the leaving of Vidic can prove to be a good thing if Moyes allows these "misfits" to play with regularity, make their mistakes, and in turn, blossom.

If United cannot indulge the errors of inexperience then we should knock the buying of youth on its head and press on with the acquisition of older, proven talent.

As for Cleverley, he isn't of the same ability as the other two. Smalling and Jones are very good at defending. Tom, on the other hand, will only play well in a team playing well. There's not a lot wrong with that, but David Moyes is our manager. Our midfield needs two players and one has to go for that to happen.
 
Cina said:
I'm saying Carrick has always been able to put in good performances when the team hasn't been playing that well, I thought that was obvious? Obviously not to the consistent level he did last season, but he still did. I don't know why you keep trying to convince me that I'm saying he has to be a Roy Keane like figure on the field, classic Pogue really, "no, no, you're wrong, here's what you actually said".

Is it so unreasonable to expect a central midfielder to put in good performances and make things happen when the rest of the team aren't performing well? Or should we just accept this notion that it's ok for a player to play shit as long as the rest of the team is playing shit too?
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Well, seeing as your opening post was "Surely a really good player should be able to influence games (especially from the center of the pitch) and take the game by the scruff of the neck when their team are under performing" that was what I was responding to.

If you've softened your stance to "putting in good performances when the team isn't playing well" then yeah, that's what I expect from really good players too. Much more likely as they mature and approach their peak though. Carrick was a year older than Cleverley is now when he first signed for United.
 
Some very good points brought up here by every side of the debate.

I personally, had/have hopes of Cleverley developing into a class midfielder. Xavi-like (not that exact level, but similar style and class nontheless). Xavi only really came to the "world class" fore mid 20's, iirc.

Recently though, Cleverley's really made it difficult to still have those hopes because his game just hasn't developed - it might even have gone backwards. There are mitigating circumstances for sure, but he's just too...very safe. Atm, he's not excelling at anything.

Not sure which side of the fence I'm on tbh.
 
Cleverley's never going to be a "grab the game by the scruff of the neck" player. He just doesnt have the game for that. I also do think he's cowardly at time and has regressed but there's no denying that he has it in him to be a good CM in the right system. His game is all about passing and moving, atleast it was earlier. In our static system, it just doesnt happen. Most teams play 3 CMs with clear roles. We play 2 and put a lot of pressure on them to perform multiple tasks and produce moments of individual quality. Clev just doesnt come across as that kind of player to me. Put him in a 3 man midfield with a role to keep things ticking and more, and he'l do well. Atleast for now with his game as it is.

If we dont move to a more fluid style, he'l just be a squad player at best for us. I'd certainly not want to get rid though, not unless we're somehow buying 3 CMs or so.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Well, seeing as your opening post was "Surely a really good player should be able to influence games (especially from the center of the pitch) and take the game by the scruff of the neck when their team are under performing" that was what I was responding to.

If you've softened your stance to "putting in good performances when the team isn't playing well" then yeah, that's what I expect from really good players too. Much more likely as they mature and approach their peak though. Carrick was a year older than Cleverley is now when he first signed for United.
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And you took 'by the scruff of the neck' to mean Roy Keane, which it clearly didn't. In the overall context of the post I thought it was pretty clear that what I meant was that he needs to perform even when others are not.
 
I really don't mind him as a squad player, but he should never be a starter. He is a better player than he has shown lately - I'm not saying he is actually that good - but certainly better than his recent form has suggested. He is clearly suffering a confidence crisis and has become a scapegoat.

He is obviously best suited to a three-man midfield and his best form comes when the team is playing fluid football with confidence. However, when we are struggling as a team, he is absolutely pointless. I don't think there is any point in selling him as I don't see him commanding a significant transfer fee. He should be a squad player and that is all.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yup. He also said this:



When he was at Watford, Malky Mackay said;

“
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Absolutely pointless. How about we rate him on the basis of how he actually performs than grindig out some quotes from a manager that he played for.
Remember how much praise Fergie had for Anderson? I bet you can find those kind of quotes about many many players that didnt make it in the end.
Judging him on this and last season he has been hugely dissapointing and looks like United is at least one stage too big for him.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Hmmm... It seems that arguably the Premier League's manager of the season so far sees something in Cleverley that the rest of you don't.

Maybe he's just finding it hard to play as part of a team that's having a season from hell? Just like almost everyone else in our squad?
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What's important to note is that Cleverley's form has been shocking for a year now. His poor form started in the second half of last season (February time). The regime change should, in essence, inspire him to work hard on his deficiencies and find the ambitious side that made him highly rated when he first broke through. He's not a Carrick, Ferdinand, Vidic, or Evra, he isn't a player who has won many big trophies, so the motivation should be there. The constant abuse, however, shouldn't be tolerated. I seen a petition wanting Cleverley to leave being retweeted the other day. He's no more than a scapegoat, and it's a shame because he's being unfairly graded. I don't rate him highly, but his performance away to Aston Villa this season is enough for me to believe he'll alter his style. I've also uploaded three clips below which show that he can be a very good passer, but for some reason (confidence mostly) he doesn't try these passes enough:



 
Cleverely simply has no confidence and it has made him forget how to play as a midfielder consistently. The difference between him now and 2 seasons ago is staggering. Moyes needs to make him believe in himself more and court responsibility. He is having the kind of spell Evans had a 2 seasons back. A serious crisis of self belief.
 
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Those 3 passes you have shown, he has done those all season however whats happened on here is people now only look for his mistakes. Its all growing its own legs right now, its ridiculous. He has had some bad games but he is no where near as awful as people have been saying. I watch him closely every game simply because of the criticism on here. There is a new comment which has started to become the new "bashing weapon" in the last week or two and thats the one where he passes the ball and runs in to where the opposition are which means he isnt available for a pass. I just had another look at the Stoke game and yes saw that exact thing but he only does it every now and then and he does it for a reason. People are taking things in isolation and not watching whats actually happening. The times he does this if you watch his head and his movement before the pass and after, are deliberate decisions. He is moving in to where opposition players are on purpose because they have to stay with him and its leaving passing channels for others open.
This is just like the idiotic stat that was used this week about Rooney and RVP. The stat used was that Rooney and RVP in the Stoke game only passed to each other at the kick off. I counted 3 completed passes between them in the first 25 minutes of the game however this was used as a stick to beat Moyes.
The other thing Cleverley does which is again taken out of context is the sideways pass. Looking at the graphic doing the rounds on his passes against Stoke they do indeed all look like only sideways passes however when watching the game at the time I thought his passes were positive ones. Many of those sideways passes have a slight forward trajectory but more importantly were on to players making runs forward. they were played correctly in to the path of the player going forward who then pushed forward on receiving in to space.

Heres the key thing however, Cleverley has had poor games but whats happening in here is that people are hopping on the bandwagon by looking for his mistakes and not seeing the good work. There was a game a few weeks ago where in the 1st 15 minutes he played a number of good passes forward, was very busy and involved but the first mention he got in the match day thread was at 15 minutes when one of his passes went astray and in to touch. After that the thread was filled with Cleverley bashing. By then the consensus was he had had a bad game which I for one didnt think he had.
I have said this a number of times, Cleverley is right now going through the same slagging off that Fletcher endured for 3 or 4 seasons, some justified but much of it wildly off the mark.
The amusing bit to me is how many people make comments on something he does without thinking about the before and after. His body shape, movement and head movement give you indicators as to the purpose of what he does and most seem to be completely blind to this.
Again, the three passes moneymay has shown are still being done this season but people simply dont seem to see them because they are only looking for his first mistake so they can make a comment.
Open your eyes.
 
Stack said:
Those 3 passes you have shown, he has done those all season however whats happened on here is people now only look for his mistakes. Its all growing its own legs right now, its ridiculous. He has had some bad games but he is no where near as awful as people have been saying. I watch him closely every game simply because of the criticism on here. There is a new comment which has started to become the new "bashing weapon" in the last week or two and thats the one where he passes the ball and runs in to where the opposition are which means he isnt available for a pass. I just had another look at the Stoke game and yes saw that exact thing but he only does it every now and then and he does it for a reason. People are taking things in isolation and not watching whats actually happening. The times he does this if you watch his head and his movement before the pass and after, are deliberate decisions. He is moving in to where opposition players are on purpose because they have to stay with him and its leaving passing channels for others open.
This is just like the idiotic stat that was used this week about Rooney and RVP. The stat used was that Rooney and RVP in the Stoke game only passed to each other at the kick off. I counted 3 completed passes between them in the first 25 minutes of the game however this was used as a stick to beat Moyes.
The other thing Cleverley does which is again taken out of context is the sideways pass. Looking at the graphic doing the rounds on his passes against Stoke they do indeed all look like only sideways passes however when watching the game at the time I thought his passes were positive ones. Many of those sideways passes have a slight forward trajectory but more importantly were on to players making runs forward. they were played correctly in to the path of the player going forward who then pushed forward on receiving in to space.

Heres the key thing however, Cleverley has had poor games but whats happening in here is that people are hopping on the bandwagon by looking for his mistakes and not seeing the good work. There was a game a few weeks ago where in the 1st 15 minutes he played a number of good passes forward, was very busy and involved but the first mention he got in the match day thread was at 15 minutes when one of his passes went astray and in to touch. After that the thread was filled with Cleverley bashing. By then the consensus was he had had a bad game which I for one didnt think he had.
I have said this a number of times, Cleverley is right now going through the same slagging off that Fletcher endured for 3 or 4 seasons, some justified but much of it wildly off the mark.
The amusing bit to me is how many people make comments on something he does without thinking about the before and after. His body shape, movement and head movement give you indicators as to the purpose of what he does and most seem to be completely blind to this.
Again, the three passes moneymay has shown are still being done this season but people simply dont seem to see them because they are only looking for his first mistake so they can make a comment.
Open your eyes.
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Great post mate. Spot on.
 
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