Tom Cleverley | 2011/12 Performances

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I wish the Carrick Pogue watches actually played for us.


ESPN rated him 5 out of 10.

Editorial | Man United vs Basel Player Ratings | ESPNSTAR.com

Goal.com rated him 4.5 out of 10.

Manchester United vs Basel Player Ratings - Goal.com

SportSkeeda rated him 5 out of 10.

Manchester United vs FC Basel: Player Ratings «

Bleacherreport gave him 3.5 out of 10.

Manchester United vs FC Basel: Player Ratings «

5 out of 10.

UEFA.com - UEFA Champions League - Player Rater - Man. United vs Basel


If that was "one of the best individual performances of any of our central midfielders this season" then we are fecked.

I've yet to find any website that ever gets individual ratings even vaguely correct. Dunno what the Sky Sports ratings were for that game but they're invariably a load of bollox too. Ditto MEN.

It's all to do with what is often apparent on here. The vast majority of internet football fans are fecking morons. And this website has more clued in punters than most!
 
I thought this is interesting:

Leaving Old Trafford last night following United’s lackluster draw with Basel, feeling somewhat dejected, I immediately recieved two texts almost simultaneously.

The first text read: “Didn’t see owt of Carrick all night!” The second read: “Carrick MOTM IMO”.

It was the same when I visited twitter later that night, with some claiming Carrick was a “disgrace, waste of space, passenger again etc.” Others were tweeting “superb, brilliant, best player on the pitch, the only bright light in midfield.”

Looking at various match reviews it was the same contradictory tale, the Manchester Evening News’s Stuart Mathieson gave Carrick Five out of Ten describing his performance with the sentence: The midfielder was pretty anonymous and his usual protection of a defence as anchor man was non-existent

United fans who rated the players via the MEN website went even further, giving Carrick an average of 3.9 -the worst of any United player.
The United Religion had a different view, their player ratings noted: Michael Carrick 7- Was great with the ball at his feet, and Carrick showed that he could offer much more to the United attack if he could get forward, but limited capabilities from his teammates prevent that.

The Busby Way’s Facebook page was another example of paradoxes: Carrick was our best player tonight in my opinion.
I wouldn’t trade Carrick for a pizza.

My own personal opinion of Carrick’s performance was that he played well, my only criticism was his attempted tackle on Xhaka on the way to Basel’s third goal was pitiful.

I’ve never been one for examining stats to see if a player’s performed well, I much prefer to simply watch a game and make a judgment. As I left the ground last night, I felt Carrick had been, behind Danny Welbeck, our best player.

The stats -which were all over twitter from the Carrick supporters brigade seem to back this opinion up with a high number of forward passes. That doesn’t tell the full story of course as many people will point to Carrick’s inability to fully protect the back four- as Mathieson did. I think this is being harsh as it wasn’t Carrick’s fault United conceded three goals last night- bigger fingers needed to be pointed at the likes of Rio Ferdinand and Patrice Evra who were both well below par.
 
I thought this is interesting:

I think that bloke is bang on. The perfect counter-point to my claim about all internet football fans being morons!

Interesting he mentions Mathieson's ratings from the MEN. I used to post on that website and I don't think he ever gave our players ratings that even came close to being correct. Not once. Which is quite an achievement really.
 
I've yet to find any website that ever gets individual ratings even vaguely correct. Dunno what the Sky Sports ratings were for that game but they're invariably a load of bollox too. Ditto MEN.

It's all to do with what is often apparent on here. The vast majority of internet football fans are fecking morons. And this website has more clued in punters than most!

4,4 and 5
 
Ratings are based mostly off a score of the game than the actual individual performance really, like Anderson who on twitter and here was widely destroyed for his weakest performance this year....got plenty of 7's and 6's in papers because he scored and they won. It's a weak system, but that's how it seems to mostly be done.

And well, of course, Carricks the cool guy to be hating right now, so he's going to get destroyed whenever possible.
 
There you have it. A load of old bollox.

The UEFA.com one actually gives Carrick a lower individual rating than all four of our defenders. Mental.

You don't think, perhaps, that you are overrating his performance?
 
You don't think, perhaps, that you are overrating his performance?

Nope.

I have faith in my own judgement. Especially in a game where he so clearly stood out from all our other players.

That link (blog?) you posted implies I'm not the only one to think that way too.

Anyhoo, Cleverley.

Can't wait to see him back but Liverpool might be a bit too soon.
 
Nope.

I have faith in my own judgement. Especially in a game where he so clearly stood out from all our other players.

That link (blog?) you posted implies I'm not the only one to think that way too.

Anyhoo, Cleverley.

Can't wait to see him back but Liverpool might be a bit too soon.
You aren't. However, I suspect you are in the minority. I think in order to combat the over the top Carrick bashing you have, perhaps unsuspectingly, gone the other way, with over the top praise.

But yeah, Cleverley. Cool hair.
 
Anyone who describes a player as invisible after he plays 78 passes is clearly a bit of an idiot. Carrick was our best player against Basel.
 
I wondered why the caf seemed a nicer place to read recently.

Then you came back and I realised.
 
I am struggling as to why so many seem so reluctant to give the credit for our sexy football to the Ando and TC partnership. We did not play that way before they were paired together and have not played anywhere near as effectively since the break up of that duo.

Yes, TC was injured in the Bolton game, and we still played well, but i believe the tone had already been set in that game, as the performance of Anderson inidcated. His performances since TC's injury have gotten progressively worse, as have the teams in general. We were still open defensively when they were paired together, but our offensive prowess significantly outweighed any defensive frailities.

That is no longer the case, against Norwich we were back to last year, pedestrian, unimaginative and predictable in attack. Only now the defensive frailties are increasingly becoming more of a concern.

I have long suggested that a complimentary partnership in midfield is what this team needs, as our fully fit defence and strikeforce is quite formidable. What we need now and have needed for a long time is an energetic, mobile and high quality link between the forwards and defence, which TC and Ando duly provided.

It may well be piling unnecessary pressure on TC when he comes back, but it has to be noted that since his inclusion, Anderson has looked the player we all hoped he could be, and the whole team benefitted greatly from their enthusiasm and energy. Since his injury Anderson has looked more like the player from the past 2 seasons than the one that started this season so well.
Young's form has dipped, so has Rooney's and even Nani is performing below his earlier standard. All coincidences? Possible, but unlikely imo.

Is that a coincidence, i don't think so. Anderson's pre season was deemed by many as the reason for his good start, it has obviously helped, but his form has looked nothing like his first few games when he played with TC. The midfield are now once again struggling to provide either quality attacking support or increased defensive stability with the players we have had available since TC's injury, just as we did last season.

I have said many times the midfield provides the platform for the other areas of the team to perform at their best. The tone is set by those in the middle, either positively or negatively. The fact we now look like we did so often last year, must strongly inidcate that it is indeed simply a question of personnel rather than tactics.

This current midfield provides the same options it has provided for the last few years, therefore surely the introduction of Cleverley, coupled with the effect his presence has had on Anderson, can reasonably be credited with having the most significant and positive effect, both on the team and changing the dimensions of our play.
 
Everyone has a role to play. People could argue, Carrick was trying to do a cleverly and couldn't get close enough to Anderson. We're manchester United, not city. I disagree in principle with the need for a defensive midfielder. It's a big world. There are plenty of midfielders out there that have more energy and can get stuck in. Now we don't know what's asked of Carrick but if people think Carricks the end of the rainbow, then that's up to them. If you've grown up with Robson, Keane etc then Carricks not in our DNA. But this is a Cleverly thread and you read people saying it's unfair on Cleverly....unfair? To praise the boy? I don't think it is.

What Cleverly has to look to do is work on his game, keep improving and add to his game and let's give him some credit. He wouldn't be getting games if his head was in the clouds the minute praise arrived as his feet. He's worked hard at his game and his style of play is suited to a high tempo. Is it flawless? No, but nothing is. It's the United way though. There will be set backs but I think if most people can be reasonable about 20 year old De gea they can be reasonable about 21/22 year old Cleverly....

We can even speculate Andersons gone off the boil somewhat since Cleverlys injury...We'll never get to the bottom of it. The only thing we know and the only thing that was clear, was that we were playing better football, we were passing it better in the final third then we have for years but defensively we were pretty ropey as we are now - though that's also questionable.
 
Carrick was actually did alright on the night. Was one of our better players. So the ratings of 4 and 5 are rubbish. On the other hand the people who over compensate for the underrating of carrick and his performances by overrating them spout equal amounts of rubbish.

He did a decent job on the night. Not even comparable to the better performances of Anderson and Cleverley this season where they did more than 'pass it neatly'. They were involved all over the pitch, attacking, defending, controlling, driving, shooting etc. And trying to pick out a decent performance by carrick as 'one of the best this season' when the season is still so young and any competent performance would get amongst that list smacks of desperation to praise a player. And it wasn't even close to those others on that list should it make it.

That's my take on the Carrick statement.

As for Cleverley, it IS wrong to consider his partnership with Anderson as some sort of tool that automatically delivers those kind of performances. But their partnership did play a good ROLE in making it happen. Having said that, the partnership does have inherent flaws, on paper at least, of being a little defensively naive. But I'm excited by the potential going forwards to overlook that for now.
 
Everyone has a role to play. People could argue, Carrick was trying to do a cleverly and couldn't get close enough to Anderson. We're manchester United, not city. I disagree in principle with the need for a defensive midfielder. It's a big world. There are plenty of midfielders out there that have more energy and can get stuck in. Now we don't know what's asked of Carrick but if people think Carricks the end of the rainbow, then that's up to them. If you've grown up with Robson, Keane etc then Carricks not in our DNA. But this is a Cleverly thread and you read people saying it's unfair on Cleverly....unfair? To praise the boy? I don't think it is.
What Cleverly has to look to do is work on his game, keep improving and add to his game and let's give him some credit. He wouldn't be getting games if his head was in the clouds the minute praise arrived as his feet. He's worked hard at his game and his style of play is suited to a high tempo. Is it flawless? No, but nothing is. It's the United way though. There will be set backs but I think if most people can be reasonable about 20 year old De gea they can be reasonable about 21/22 year old Cleverly....

We can even speculate Andersons gone off the boil somewhat since Cleverlys injury...We'll never get to the bottom of it. The only thing we know and the only thing that was clear, was that we were playing better football, we were passing it better in the final third then we have for years but defensively we were pretty ropey as we are now - though that's also questionable.

Paul Scholes agrees with you on a two man midfield...:

It's a position clubs have become obsessed with. I always feel that if you've got two in midfield and one goes forward the other one stays, it's as simple as that.

That's the way we played for a long time. Since [Claude] Makelele made himself famous in that position everyone wants a Makelele. To be fair to him he had to do that in that Real Madrid team because there were five lads who wanted to go forward and he was the only one who even entertained the thought of staying back.--Paul Scholes

...and giving credit where credit's due:

Going to Wigan last year helped him a lot. At the start of the year the manager just gave him his head, his four or five games, and he's been fantastic, a breath of fresh air. When he came on in the Community Shield he changed the game and he went on from there. It's just a shame he got that injury when he did.--Paul Scholes

Far be it for me to disagree with Scholes. ;)
 
I am struggling as to why so many seem so reluctant to give the credit for our sexy football to the Ando and TC partnership. We did not play that way before they were paired together and have not played anywhere near as effectively since the break up of that duo.

Yes, TC was injured in the Bolton game, and we still played well, but i believe the tone had already been set in that game, as the performance of Anderson inidcated. His performances since TC's injury have gotten progressively worse, as have the teams in general. We were still open defensively when they were paired together, but our offensive prowess significantly outweighed any defensive frailities.

That is no longer the case, against Norwich we were back to last year, pedestrian, unimaginative and predictable in attack. Only now the defensive frailties are increasingly becoming more of a concern.

I have long suggested that a complimentary partnership in midfield is what this team needs, as our fully fit defence and strikeforce is quite formidable. What we need now and have needed for a long time is an energetic, mobile and high quality link between the forwards and defence, which TC and Ando duly provided.

It may well be piling unnecessary pressure on TC when he comes back, but it has to be noted that since his inclusion, Anderson has looked the player we all hoped he could be, and the whole team benefitted greatly from their enthusiasm and energy. Since his injury Anderson has looked more like the player from the past 2 seasons than the one that started this season so well.
Young's form has dipped, so has Rooney's and even Nani is performing below his earlier standard. All coincidences? Possible, but unlikely imo.

Is that a coincidence, i don't think so. Anderson's pre season was deemed by many as the reason for his good start, it has obviously helped, but his form has looked nothing like his first few games when he played with TC. The midfield are now once again struggling to provide either quality attacking support or increased defensive stability with the players we have had available since TC's injury, just as we did last season.

I have said many times the midfield provides the platform for the other areas of the team to perform at their best. The tone is set by those in the middle, either positively or negatively. The fact we now look like we did so often last year, must strongly inidcate that it is indeed simply a question of personnel rather than tactics.

This current midfield provides the same options it has provided for the last few years, therefore surely the introduction of Cleverley, coupled with the effect his presence has had on Anderson, can reasonably be credited with having the most significant and positive effect, both on the team and changing the dimensions of our play.

You're conveniently ignoring the string of top class performances Anderson put in in the latter half of last season, when Cleverley was still at Wigan.

Anderson's improvement this season was entirely predictable, with or without any contribution from Cleverley.

Not to say they haven't looked good together, because they have, but it's disingenuous to imply that Anderson only turned the corner when Fergie finally found the right partner in Tom Cleverley. Anderson clearly doesn't need Cleverley alongside him to be at his best. We saw this alongside Carrick last season and again, against Bolton, just a few weeks back.

Conversely, he is just as capable of under-performing alongside Cleverley, as he is alongside anyone else. WBA away being the most obvious, recent example. A performance which has been completely glossed over by our late winner. If "OG" hadn't saved our arse, people would be a hell of a lot less bullish about the Anderson-Cleverley pairing. Our midfield arguably performed worse in that game than Fletcher and Anderson did last weekend.
 
That's what was so great to see when Anderson and Cleverley played together. Two mobile central midfielders both capable of getting up and down the pitch. It was a thing of beauty, as was our football. I do concede that it leaves us open at the back but against lots of teams I think we can take that chance given how good our attack is at hurting teams when we do get forwards and makings sure teams don't take advantage of that space at the back.

But yeah, I'd love to see us get someone capable of partnering Cleverley/Anderson who is defensively more astute but has the mobility and dynamism as well.
 
So unless the team wins like 5-0, an individual who has excelled in everything he's asked to do in his role and more cannot be described as having a great performance?

Seems to be the gist of this.

It's actually interesting to see how much people's opinions vary on here on a player's performance. Personally I thought our performance against Basle as a unit was one of the worst I've seen from a United side in years. The last minute Young goal disguised a horrifically disorganised team display, of which I thought our midfield (Carrick included) was a big factor.

Pogue and a few others think Carrick had a decent game and that our defence was mainly to blame...there's certainly no arguing that our defence hardly did themselves much justice.

I remember thinking things like "Berba had a decent game today" in the past, only to find that on here people thought the exact opposite and were busy laying into him. Notably at Blackburn a couple of years back when he was one of about three players who looked like they had any fight left in them, yet copped nearly all the stick for us not winning afterwards.

It's just a shame we all feel the need to act like dicks about differing opinions the whole time.
 
That's what was so great to see when Anderson and Cleverley played together. Two mobile central midfielders both capable of getting up and down the pitch. It was a thing of beauty, as was our football. I do concede that it leaves us open at the back but against lots of teams I think we can take that chance given how good our attack is at hurting teams when we do get forwards and makings sure teams don't take advantage of that space at the back.

But yeah, I'd love to see us get someone capable of partnering Cleverley/Anderson who is defensively more astute but has the mobility and dynamism as well.

I didn't really give a feck if it left us open. It's how we always used to play and it makes for fantastic games of football...and I think we'd improve on knowing when to over commit with time anyway. We're not Barca but feck it, we're Manchester United. People are just cowards these days. I blame Jose Mourinho.

Don't see any reason why we can't play that way with Carrick or Fletcher partnering Anderson (or Cleverley). The only time I think it'd be a problem is if Carrick and Fletcher play together, as they're too passive as a pair.

Our form was always going to tail off a bit regardless of who we lined up with though. We've picked up more injuries than just Cleverley too.
 
You're conveniently ignoring the string of top class performances Anderson put in in the latter half of last season, when Cleverley was still at Wigan.

I'm not ignoring them Pogue. I'm unaware of them! A 'string of top class performances'? When? Against who? I remember a couple of decent performances, but not a consistent run like you seem to be suggesting. Wasn't Carrick and Giggs our pairing in the latter half of last season?

Anderson's improvement this season was entirely predictable, with or without any contribution from Cleverley.

So then why has his form now dipped again, since Clev was injured?

Not to say they haven't looked good together, because they have, but it's disingenuous to imply that Anderson only turned the corner when Fergie finally found the right partner in Tom Cleverley. Anderson clearly doesn't need Cleverley alongside him to be at his best. We saw this alongside Carrick last season and again, against Bolton, just a few weeks back.
How many times? Once? Twice? In a whole season, give me a break Pogue.

Conversely, he is just as capable of under-performing alongside Cleverley, as he is alongside anyone else. WBA away being the most obvious, recent example. A performance which has been completely glossed over by our late winner. If "OG" hadn't saved our arse, people would be a hell of a lot less bullish about the Anderson-Cleverley pairing. Our midfield arguably performed worse in that game than Fletcher and Anderson did last weekend.

1 below par performance out of 5 consecutive games. How many below par performances have we seen from him already with different partners, not only last season but since TC's injury?

You are using the 1 performance against WBA as an exception to the rule, while in the same breath picking out the odd performance last year as proof he plays just as well without Cleverley. Those good performances without Cleverley last year have clearly been the exception to the rule, yet a consistent run with a new partner which provided the whole team with a complete new dimension, should be discounted because in 4 seasons Anderson has played a handful of good games with Carrick! He has played significantly more stinkers with Carrick, than good games that's for certain!

Come on Pogue, i have never seen Anderson play half a dozen fantastic performances on the trot for us until he was partnered with TC. Yet from the very first game he did not start with TC, not only his individual performances, but that of the whole team have gotten progressively worse. We have gone from seemingly unbeatable, to looking extremely beatable in 3 weeks. The only difference i see is the absence of the Ando/Cleverley central pairing.
 
One or two good performances from Anderson in the whole of last season? The short memories on here never cease to amaze.

Mind you, even if it was just two (and it wasn't) that's exactly the same amount of good performances we've seen alongside Cleverley this season (assuming we credit them with good performamces for the entire game against Spurs, who overran our midfield for long periods)

Which also happens to be just one more good performance than we've seen alongside Carrick in the first few weeks of THIS season.
 
Anyone who gives Carrick a rating of 4 for the Basel game certainly is.

His 2nd half performance is solid 4. Having in mind his pretty good first half - say 8, 6 sounds about right overall.

But best player on the pitch? Welbeck, Nani, Young IMO were better...
 
That actually sounds like a great trio. Carrick offers a lot defensively and Anderson and cleverly going forwards can create hell for teams.

Only problem is that rooney is at his best dropping deep. If he can somehow do that messi job of creating and scoring from that lone striker role, then it works big time. But I can see us using this only away from home in Europe.
I want it in big games.
 
Another cracking addition to the debate.

Seriously, can any of you gimps start coming up with this long list of superior performances in central midfield that I seem to have forgotten?

Neither Anderson nor Cleverly excelled against Spurs - last 30 minutes aside - and they didn't particularly impress against WBA.

Arsenal game would be up there but if Carrick is going to be crucified for allowing Basle score two goals against us, why are Anderson and Cleverley completely blame free for Arsenal doing the same (and missing a penalty) in a match where Arsenal were so utterly abject? FWIW, I would say that both Cleverley and Anderson did play well in that game. Not significantly better than Carrick did against Basle, mind you.

Anderson was very good against Bolton IMO. That would definitely be up there.

After that? I dunno. Purely in terms of an individual performance, Carrick's would have to be right up there. Just bad luck for him that it came on a day when so many others didn't do their jobs properly.

sorry am a bit late and there was no white text, so easy to mis-interpret. However, you did go quite a bit to the extreme in over-rating this performance, especially as we have hardly played 10 games this season, so you are not going to get an exhaustive list. So in a thread where people are being asked to not go over-board over a youngsters' performances, your saying Carrick's performance was one of the best mid-field performances was certainly not right. Especially since he was part of a mid-field which allowed the opposition complete freedom.
And just because we didn't have much go our way in the Spurs match in the first 60 min doesn't make it worse than the Basle performance. And we were playing pretty well in the first half against West Brom too, so the mid-field in both those cases were better than the Basle performance. And as for the Arsenal match, you can't really compare it to the Basle match as the attitude with which the team approached the match was much aggressive and we were creating loads of opportunities.
As for the Basle match, Giggs was pretty poor when it came to giving away the ball but still had two assists while Carrick didn't really impose himself on the match. For someone who has been here for 5 years as the first choice mid-fielder, he should atleast realise that he needed to protect the back four. So he was better than the other two, but the performance doesn't really warrant 'one of the best mid-field performances' since we are too early in the season and the data-set is limited.

And yeah, you don't need to take an off the cuff remark so seriously. Taking into consideration that you are pretty intelligent, you should be able to see the flaw in your own statement and how that can come across as laughable . You are too defensive and it is clouding your overall judgement or maybe we are looking at it from different perspectives.
 
Tom Cleverley — apology | The Sun |News

AN article on 16 August reported that Manchester United footballer Tom Cleverley had begged a girl for sex after meeting her at a night club, even though he was dating a Page 3 model. In fact, entirely unknown to the girl it now transpires that the man involved, who looked like Tom Cleverley, was impersonating him. We apologise to Mr Cleverley for any embarrassment caused.
 
Carrick's importance is often stated by the players themselves and I think that says enough.

Lets be honest, do you think they would say the opposite? We're United not City....:p What do you expect players to say? There is a word called professionalism. Sir Alex looks for character in players. We've no back stabbers here and if there was, they would be out the door themselves...
 
'Newspaper in printing bollox scandal'


How limited is our midfield is that were praying for the return of an unproven 22 year old.
 
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