Tom Cleverley | 2011/12 Performances

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We don't really need to worry about our attacking football though, given the players we have up there who can usually go and win matches by themselves. It's the deeper part of the midfield rather than the more attacking part of the midfield that's the issue here.

That's why I can't see Cleverley coming back helping all that much with the problems we have right now, because he's more of an attacker.
 
Talking of Sneijder, how are Inter doing this season?

We've had a couple of below par performances. So what, big deal. We've had an unusual amount of injuries, the whole team has been affected. Once all the players are back, we'll be reet. And Cleverley will play a big part in our season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Not entirely sure what you mean by "taking the game by the scruff of the neck". It's a little bit vague as a means of judging whether someone played well or not.

What I do know is that Carrick was excellent against Basle. Barely misplaced a pass all game and was constantly incisive and accurate in his use of the ball. I think someone posted a stat about him actually making more forward passes than he did sideways or backwards. Also worked his bollocks off trying to close down the wide open spaces left by our lunatic "defenders". A really top class performance.
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Strange as I seem to remember Basle having the better of midfield pretty much all game, apart from when they sat off after taking the lead, and we were shocking as a unit. I didn't understand why Carrick was so high up the pitch when players were running in behind him all the time, or in some cases simply strolling past him (and Anderson). He looked like he'd been caught in the headlights at times. He also came on against Chelsea and immediately took a load of stick from the crowd for not having the confidence to take the ball on when he had the space to do so. Confident Carrick doesn't do these things imo.

Taking the game by the scruff of the neck is exactly what Carrick doesn't do. He sits and plays passes and mops things up, but he wont go after the game or look to be the team's driving force. It's just not what he does. Cleverley's come in and proven to be more effective because he does take that responsability on, in fact he almost demands it. It's refreshing having someone in our midfield who's willing to do that, and it's given our other players (in particular Carrick and Fletch) something to think about imo. They either have to step up their game or step out of their comfort zones and look to add something to it. Otherwise Cleverley's going to end up being a better choice fairly quickly.

It's not really that much of a criticism of either. It's just great to have a young player who despite not being a world beater, can really add something and force our more experienced players not to rest on their laurels.
 
Carrick might not be the player people want but I think he can sit in front of the back four as well as anyone. That sort of player rarely takes the game by the scruff of the neck. What he does do is make defending a lot easier for those behind him.
 
noodlehair said:
Strange as I seem to remember Basle having the better of midfield pretty much all game, apart from when they sat off after taking the lead, and we were shocking as a unit. I didn't understand why Carrick was so high up the pitch when players were running in behind him all the time, or in some cases simply strolling past him (and Anderson). He looked like he'd been caught in the headlights at times. He also came on against Chelsea and immediately took a load of stick from the crowd for not having the confidence to take the ball on when he had the space to do so. Confident Carrick doesn't do these things imo.

Taking the game by the scruff of the neck is exactly what Carrick doesn't do. He sits and plays passes and mops things up, but he wont go after the game or look to be the team's driving force. It's just not what he does. Cleverley's come in and proven to be more effective because he does take that responsability on, in fact he almost demands it. It's refreshing having someone in our midfield who's willing to do that, and it's given our other players (in particular Carrick and Fletch) something to think about imo. They either have to step up their game or step out of their comfort zones and look to add something to it. Otherwise Cleverley's going to end up being a better choice fairly quickly.

It's not really that much of a criticism of either. It's just great to have a young player who despite not being a world beater, can really add something and force our more experienced players not to rest on their laurels.
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So why criticise him for not doing it in a specific game? :confused:

Unless you're implying he's never played well for United?

As for the game against Basle, I refer you to the stats on the previous page. Why would a player who was apparently completely devoid of confidence make such a high proportion of forward passes and such a high number of passes in total? (41/78)* Surely if he was lacking in confidence he'd hide from the ball and look to mainly pass backwards/sideways?

All that stuff about comfort zones is your usual reasoning that the only reason players/the team under-perform is because they basically can't be arsed. Don't agree with this at all.





*Cleverley played a total of 69 passes against Arsenal, 64 against WBA and just 35 against Spurs (i.e. less than Carrick did against Basle in every single game he's played this season) Has Cleverley been playing without confidence too?
 
Are there any threads left on here that people can't find a way to turn into stupid Carrick bashing?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
So why criticise him for not doing it in a specific game? :confused:

Unless you're implying he's never played well for United?

As for the game against Basle, I refer you to the stats on the previous page. Why would a player who was apparently completely devoid of confidence make such a high proportion of forward passes and such a high number of passes in total? (41/78)* Surely if he was lacking in confidence he'd hide from the ball and look to mainly pass backwards/sideways?

All that stuff about comfort zones is your usual reasoning that the only reason players/the team under-perform is because they basically can't be arsed. Don't agree with this at all.





*Cleverley played a total of 69 passes against Arsenal, 64 against WBA and just 35 against Spurs (i.e. less than Carrick did against Basle in every single game he's played this season) Has Cleverley been playing without confidence too?
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I'm not criticising him for not doing it in a specific game. I said he looks low on confidence and hasn't really stepped up in the wake of Cleverley impressing and putting his place in the team in doubt.

I don't get how the percentage of forward passes has anything to do with it, firstly since the idea that Carrick never passes it forwards is a bit of a myth anyway, and secondly because there's a big difference between passing the ball forwards, and driving the team forwards.

I haven't mentioned anything about players not being arsed either. Doesn't Carrick usually cover more ground than anyone else on the pitch? I said it's great that we've got someone like Cleverley forcing the older players to keep pushing themselves in order not to lose their place. Again, you're turning what I've said into something I haven't actually said and then using it to argue against me about something I'm not even particularly arguing about. How am I supposed to combat this?
 
noodlehair said:
I'm not criticising him for not doing it in a specific game. I said he looks low on confidence and hasn't really stepped up in the wake of Cleverley impressing and putting his place in the team in doubt.

I don't get how the percentage of forward passes has anything to do with it, firstly since the idea that Carrick never passes it forwards is a bit of a myth anyway, and secondly because there's a big difference between passing the ball forwards, and driving the team forwards.

I haven't mentioned anything about players not being arsed either. Doesn't Carrick usually cover more ground than anyone else on the pitch? I said it's great that we've got someone like Cleverley forcing the older players to keep pushing themselves in order not to lose their place. Again, you're turning what I've said into something I haven't actually said and then using it to argue against me about something I'm not even particularly arguing about. How am I supposed to combat this?
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I'm not expecting you to combat anything. I'm just disagreeing with your statement about Carrick looking " completely devoid of confidence" when he put in such an impressive performance (IMHO) less than a week ago.

The stats stuff was just backing up my opinion by pointing out that made more passes than Cleverley did in any game so far this season, whilst passing the ball incredibly accurately and progressively. None of which fits with your idea that his response to Cleverley's impressive start has been to retreat into his shell.

Basle game aside, in the one game where Carrick directly replaced Cleverley (i.e. Bolton) he played his part in our best away performance in the league since the season before last.

To counter this opinion, all I've heard from you is one back pass during a substitute appearance against Chelsea (when we were 3-1 up) and a criticism of the Basle performance based around him being caught to far up the pitch. As I said, this doesn't exactly sound like a player who's lost all his confidence in the face of competition for places.
 
Cleverly has had a great start and I am very excited about him.

Carrick has had a much improved calendar year and we need him especially in the CL.

Anderson had been hit and miss this season.

Giggs should be a super sub.

=

I miss Scholes.
 
R_Nick said:
Are there any threads left on here that people can't find a way to turn into stupid Carrick bashing?
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You reckon this site is bad for Carrick bashing? You should have a look around the web. Outright hatred is the prevailing feeling towards him on other United sites.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'm not expecting you to combat anything. I'm just disagreeing with your statement about Carrick looking " completely devoid of confidence" when he put in such an impressive performance (IMHO) less than a week ago.

The stats stuff was just backing up my opinion by pointing out that made more passes than Cleverley did in any game so far this season, whilst passing the ball incredibly accurately and progressively. None of which fits with your idea that his response to Cleverley's impressive start has been to retreat into his shell.

Basle game aside, in the one game where Carrick directly replaced Cleverley (i.e. Bolton) he played his part in our best away performance in the league since the season before last.

To counter this opinion, all I've heard from you is one back pass during a substitute appearance against Chelsea (when we were 3-1 up) and a criticism of the Basle performance based around him being caught to far up the pitch. As I said, this doesn't exactly sound like a player who's lost all his confidence in the face of competition for places.
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He didn't play well against Basle. we were outplayed in midfield and for a start, his, Giggs and Anderson's positioning seemed to show a complete lack of understanding or regard for what was actually going on. Something Fergie even mentioned in his post game interview. This was also a game where we played at an incredibly slow pace and without any real flow or rythm throughout. I don't really care about how many forward passes he might have made. He let the other team play through him and along with the rest of the midfield wasn't exhibiting any control over the game at all. Michael Carrick by his own standards is much better than that.

He was also very poor against Benfica, often getting rid of the ball just for the sake of it instead of making space to pick the right pass, which he's more than capable of doing...and then ended up on the bench for Chelsea as a result. He came on against Chelsea and again didn't look anything like Michael Carrick at his best.

Fergie's seen fit to leave him out of the squad for our last two league games, despite Cleverley being injured and Fletcher not really being match fit. What would you put it down to? If it's not a confidence issue then what, he's just turned less good for some unknown reason? Not fit?

He did play well against Bolton, but on reflection, Bolton are currently an awful team. I've watched them four times this season and they've been completely diabolical every single time. Every midfielder who's played against them has had a field day.

I spent most of last season defending him for doing his job well and being limited by not having someone next to him to take on the role of driving the team forwards, but this season he's not really doing his job well as yet...where as Cleverley's come in and looked fantastic whilst being an entirely different kind of player.
 
noodlehair said:
He didn't play well against Basle. we were outplayed in midfield and for a start, his, Giggs and Anderson's positioning seemed to show a complete lack of understanding or regard for what was actually going on. Something Fergie even mentioned in his post game interview. This was also a game where we played at an incredibly slow pace and without any real flow or rythm throughout. I don't really care about how many forward passes he might have made. He let the other team play through him and along with the rest of the midfield wasn't exhibiting any control over the game at all. Michael Carrick by his own standards is much better than that.

He was also very poor against Benfica, often getting rid of the ball just for the sake of it instead of making space to pick the right pass, which he's more than capable of doing...and then ended up on the bench for Chelsea as a result. He came on against Chelsea and again didn't look anything like Michael Carrick at his best.

Fergie's seen fit to leave him out of the squad for our last two league games, despite Cleverley being injured and Fletcher not really being match fit. What would you put it down to? If it's not a confidence issue then what, he's just turned less good for some unknown reason? Not fit?

He did play well against Bolton, but on reflection, Bolton are currently an awful team. I've watched them four times this season and they've been completely diabolical every single time. Every midfielder who's played against them has had a field day.

I spent most of last season defending him for doing his job well and being limited by not having someone next to him to take on the role of driving the team forwards, but this season he's not really doing his job well as yet...where as Cleverley's come in and looked fantastic whilst being an entirely different kind of player.
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Agree Carrick didn't play well against Benfica. .

Completely disagree he didn't play well against Basle but meh, if I haven't convinced you by now I never will. I find it very odd that anyone can have watched that game and not been impressed by carrick's performance but nowt so queer as folk...
 
Didn't think our midfield functioned at all as a unit against Basle. Doesn't mean Carrick was to blame, certainly not anymore than anyone else, but I didn't think there was anything particularly impressive about standing really high up the pitch when you're not controlling the game territorially, and the opposition are taking the ball past you and running through freely at your back four. It was a disaster of a game.

We'll have to agree to disagree though.

Point I was trying to make with Cleverley is that he's a breath of fresh air and has a lot of the attributes people (including myself) think have been lacking for a long time in our midfield. Not sure he's the answer or capable of stepping up long term, but he just kind of seems to be in the right mould...there's a bit of the class of 99 attitude about him. No compromise.
 
moses said:
Carrick might not be the player people want but I think he can sit in front of the back four as well as anyone. That sort of player rarely takes the game by the scruff of the neck. What he does do is make defending a lot easier for those behind him.
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Well that's opinion. I don't think United and defensive midfielder are in each others dna. I think there's a lot of sentimentality here. Seems like a nice lad.
 
noodlehair said:
Didn't think our midfield functioned at all as a unit against Basle. Doesn't mean Carrick was to blame, certainly not anymore than anyone else, but I didn't think there was anything particularly impressive about standing really high up the pitch when you're not controlling the game territorially, and the opposition are taking the ball past you and running through freely at your back four. It was a disaster of a game.

We'll have to agree to disagree though.
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Agree the midfield didn't function as a unit and agree it was a disaster of a game. I would blame our back four and (to a much lesser extent) Anderson for all the above, with similar factors making Norwich look like fecking Real Madrid at times on Saturday.

Happy to agree to disagree about Carrick's performance vs the Swiss. The only thing I think he did wrong was get a bit carried away and spend too much time in the opposition half (hardly the sign of a player who's bereft of confidence) but hey, we're going in circles here.

Point I was trying to make with Cleverley is that he's a breath of fresh air and has a lot of the attributes people (including myself) think have been lacking for a long time in our midfield. Not sure he's the answer or capable of stepping up long term, but he just kind of seems to be in the right mould...there's a bit of the class of 99 attitude about him. No compromise.
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I'm a big Cleverley fan too, believe it or not. Been singing his praises for years. Even when he struggled to get games with Wigan. I just think his newfound status as an irreplaceable midfield saviour is a wee bit over the top.

I'm also in a tiny minority on here who is looking forward to seeing him playing with - not instead of - Carrick, as I think they might complement each other very well.
 
Striker10 said:
Well that's opinion. I don't think United and defensive midfielder are in each others dna. I think there's a lot of sentimentality here. Seems like a nice lad.
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Is it though? I could swear I've seen one of the resident stats benders produce a stat that we concede far less goals when he's on the pitch. Even allowing for the fact that not all of the difference is down to him, I think it would tend to show he's a very important player in our 'defence'.
 
Any United supporter who dislikes Carrick after over 5 years of service is a scumbag.
 
R_Nick said:
Are there any threads left on here that people can't find a way to turn into stupid Carrick bashing?
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Unfortunately for Carrick O'Shea was sold, and Gibsons out injured. He's just the whipping boy left.
 
Sultan said:
Unfortunately for Carrick O'Shea was sold, and Gibsons out injured. He's just the whipping boy left.
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It's funny, I remember about 3 years ago, people were talking about Gibson the same way as Cleverley.

People thought with the space and opertunities he would get at United his long range shooting was going to make him our Lampard.

I'm not writing Cleverley off and certainly not comparing them, it's just worth remembering that percieved potential and the ability a player turns out to have can be quite different.

Cleverley has much better attributes though. Quicker, more technical. I think he'll be great :)
 
Striker10 said:
Well that's opinion. I don't think United and defensive midfielder are in each others dna. I think there's a lot of sentimentality here. Seems like a nice lad.
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I agree but simply labelling Carrick as a defensive midfielder is pretty harsh in my opinion. He's not one in the way De Jong or Mascherano are, he's got a much better range of passing than those two and is capable of of much more when in possession.

He's as close to a defensive midfielder as Fergie would ever use though, which is why I think he's a handy player to have.

Cleverley has looked class so far and seems to have that ability to spot a pass early and play it immediately. All our other central midfielders seem to hesistate on the ball when they're off form, he's a different option to have. He'll probably have a dip of form sooner or later as it's his first real season at a top club, that's when players like Fletcher and Carrick will come in.
 
Carrick neither a defensive midfielder in the Makelel class or a deep lying creative mdifielder in the Pirlo class - hes a bit of both really - a class below Xabi Alonso.
 
Pexbo said:
It's funny, I remember about 3 years ago, people were talking about Gibson the same way as Cleverley.

People thought with the space and opertunities he would get at United his long range shooting was going to make him our Lampard.

I'm not writing Cleverley off and certainly not comparing them, it's just worth remembering that percieved potential and the ability a player turns out to have can be quite different.

Cleverley has much better attributes though. Quicker, more technical. I think he'll be great :)
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Gibson never had the level of support in all his time in the first team that Cleverley has already built up in the space of a few games.
 
Lance Uppercut said:
You reckon this site is bad for Carrick bashing? You should have a look around the web. Outright hatred is the prevailing feeling towards him on other United sites.
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Anyone who hates a player from the club they support is a moron. Football fans do have a high proportion of morons amongst their numbers though so I shouldn't be surprised.

Sultan said:
Unfortunately for Carrick O'Shea was sold, and Gibsons out injured. He's just the whipping boy left.
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Sad but true.

Brwned said:
Gibson never had the level of support in all his time in the first team that Cleverley has already built up in the space of a few games.
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Is correct, that's a bizarre comparison. Some people had more patience than others with Gibson but he's never had anything like the reputation Cleverley has.
 
Sultan said:
Unfortunately for Carrick O'Shea was sold, and Gibsons out injured. He's just the whipping boy left.
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There's still Berbafault, and Evra's being lined up too. The Anderson disallowers will also be back out of the woodwork if he has another poor game or two.

Striker10 said:
Well that's opinion. I don't think United and defensive midfielder are in each others dna. I think there's a lot of sentimentality here. Seems like a nice lad.
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Carrick's not really a defensive midfielder though. Well he is, but he's a very good passer too, and can beat his man and open up defences himself when the mood takes him (though I've not really seen him do that for a couple of years now).



Pogue Mahone said:
Agree the midfield didn't function as a unit and agree it was a disaster of a game. I would blame our back four and (to a much lesser extent) Anderson for all the above, with similar factors making Norwich look like fecking Real Madrid at times on Saturday.

Happy to agree to disagree about Carrick's performance vs the Swiss. The only thing I think he did wrong was get a bit carried away and spend too much time in the opposition half (hardly the sign of a player who's bereft of confidence) but hey, we're going in circles here.



I'm a big Cleverley fan too, believe it or not. Been singing his praises for years. Even when he struggled to get games with Wigan. I just think his newfound status as an irreplaceable midfield saviour is a wee bit over the top.

I'm also in a tiny minority on here who is looking forward to seeing him playing with - not instead of - Carrick, as I think they might complement each other very well.
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Back four and midfield were equally to blame against Basle for me. Arsenal-esque stuff all round really.

Thought we were fine in the second half against Norwich. First half was so laboured I thought my brain had discovered how to slow down time, but in the second half we ran them ragged. They had a few chances but one was a dflected shot and another down to Valencia day dreaming rather than any pattern to the game.

It is getting carried away for people to be pinning all their hopes on someone who's played less than five games for us. He's just been impressive and that leads to people getting carried away. Gareth Bale was better than Messi this time last year. The season's only a few weeks old and Anderson's already fluctuated from one man team to the source of all our problems, etc. There's a middle ground of truth somewhere about 500 miles away from either of the lunatic borders.

I think Cleverley and Carrick is an interesting partnership too and I reckon Fergie will try it at some point this season. On paper they compliment each other very well and it takes some of the pressure off Anderson, but for the time being Cleverley's still finding his feet in the side and has looked so comfortable alongside Anderson, I'd kind of be reluctant to partner him with someone else.
 
Brwned said:
Gibson never had the level of support in all his time in the first team that Cleverley has already built up in the space of a few games.
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I don't know about on here but various other United forums I'd post or ghost on there was huge support for him, that's before he really had any sort of run in the first team. I'd say he actually was higher rated than Cleverley pre-first team due to the fact he had lots of youtube videos of his Reserve goals and highlights of his passing (Which we all know is how a buzz is generally created online). It's hilarious looking back.

Cleverley has been known about by anyone that keeps a keen eye on the ressies but I reckon even then those people would have expected more of an "impact" from Gibson due to the nature of their games.

Back then we thought we needed a goalscoring centre mid, a threat from range which is what Gibson showed in the reserves, now when we need a dynamo, a player who keeps play moving and does a lot of ground work, Cleverley has slotted in and made a huge impact which is a big testament to his ability and determination. It definitely looks like Cleverley is the far more talented player.

I do still think though if Gibson dropped a stone and worked on his engine he could be a good player but I don't think he has the same determination as the likes of Cleverley and before him, Fletcher and before him, although far more talented than any of them, Scholes.
 
Cleverley and Carrick seems a more safer partnership.

My favourite line-up on paper if everyone is fit is to see Carrick shielding the back 4 with Cleverley, Nani, Young, Rooney, Welbeck with Jones and Evra as full backs bombing forward.

Pace, movement and power.
 
Sultan said:
Unfortunately for Carrick O'Shea was sold, and Gibsons out injured. He's just the whipping boy left.
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We still have Evans to pillory, don't worry.

Anyway, back to the point, Cleverley has been excellent so far this season - settled into the side very quickly and, with Anderson, was keeping out Carrick and Giggs who had both excelled towards the end of last season. I was always hopeful he'd do well for us but did not imagine him to become a genuine first team player so quickly. Still plenty of room for improvement from him as well the longer he plays and matures, so looks good for him and his career here.
 
What's amazing Cleverley has now propelled himself as United's first choice midfielder in fans eyes, and that, only after a few games. Will be very difficult for the kid to live up to such high expectations. I just hope the fans are patient when he inevitably has bad games.
 
Sultan said:
What's amazing Cleverley has now propelled himself as United's first choice midfielder in fans eyes, and that, only after a few games. Will be very difficult for the kid to live up to such high expectations. I just hope the fans are patient when he inevitably has bad games.
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exactly. he's being talked about a lot and seen my quite a few as someone who'l just step in and take care of the issues we had at basel norwich etc. its something i find quite incredible.

He's bound to have bad games, i hope we stick with him and are patient because he'l get better with age. the talent is there for everyone to see.
 
I don't see much 'Cleverley is our Savior' being posted, so I'm not really sure why anyone is arguing with that attitude.

Without Cleverley we would still win the league, I suspect, so I think Barca must still be in the back of people's minds.

I'd even back us to beat Real with the team we played against Chelsea in the CL last season.

You watch Barca, and they are full of endless running, so you have no space to pass, and endless movement and passing, so they always have space to pass. [Add to this their brilliant strategy of fouling every time they lose the ball, to prevent any counter attacks.]

For those concerned about this, I think Cleverley has shown them some of what we'd need the most to beat them, some of what they give out, thus perhaps a bit more excitement than otherwise.
 
It's great to have a big squad but we really need a midfield pairing that will play the majority of games together.

Ando/Cleverly looked good but were hardly tested against tough opposition.

Our midfield lately has looked pretty clueless and I think it stems from lack of cohesion due to so many changes.

I hope Cleverly's return means that he will be back with Ando and one of Fletch or Carrick play when we require a starting 11 with only one striker.

I want to see what Ando and Cleverly can do against tough opposition. The City game was pre-season, Spurs and Arsenal were depleted teams who were shadows of what they should be.
 
Sultan said:
What's amazing Cleverley has now propelled himself as United's first choice midfielder in fans eyes, and that, only after a few games. Will be very difficult for the kid to live up to such high expectations. I just hope the fans are patient when he inevitably has bad games.
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Totally agree, it's a bit like when Valencia was injured. Every away game that we drew or lost whilst he was injured he became a better and better player.

The fear most have is that he will come back and make little or no difference. It is partially Fergie's fault though; it has been obvious the team has needed a class central midfielder for a few years, so it is only natural to brand a talented youngster so highly, given how much everyone knows we need one.

If we didn't have Rooney/Hernandez, we would currently be hailing Welbeck as the missing link. If we didn't have Rio/Smalling/Vidic, Jones would be the missing link. The fact is he's shown similar potential to the aforementioned two, but those two have world class players ahead of them and so not nearly as much pressure is being heaped onto them to step up. Unfortunately Cleverley is not in that position, I just hope fans be patient when he does inevitably have a stinker.
 
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