Are you trying to send him into a frenzy?
Tom Cleverley | 2011/12 Performances
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Heh. I'll hold off on the frenzy but I would be curious to know how the feck Sneijder, of all people, would have made us stop defending like spackers against Basle?!
He'd have made it worse if anything.
With Cleverley, we have more security in midfield (at least so far this season) and he is available all the time and gives us urgency and creativity.
To speculate whether we would have played much better in the last few games, it is impossible. Just hope he will improve us again, but the game against Liverpool might come too early
To speculate whether we would have played much better in the last few games, it is impossible. Just hope he will improve us again, but the game against Liverpool might come too early
We do? In what games have you noticed this additional "security" in midfield?
I won't deny that he's more dynamic and creative than the alternatives but I just don't understand the opinion that his return will somehow stop teams carving us open the way we've seen in the last few games. If anything, the opposite will happen.
I do not think it would have been a direct relation. More the maturity he would have brought, the ability to unlock the defense more consistently, and the ball possesion without spaz passing together would have made things a bit more bearable and clear cut.
Just an opinion but watching us looked a bit flustered put me off.
In the first games, we kept the ball much better, we played fluid and our midfielders were always available and we had this creative urgency. A reason for that is Cleverley imo, he has great movement (on and off the ball) and plays a quick, sharp passing game. Hence the opposition saw less of the ball. Defending wise, we have never been great this season anyways.
Again, one player cant influence the whole team, but Clevs played a big part in our brilliant football. Much bigger than most of us probably expected
Saf mentioned we have been caught on the quick break and on long balls.
Teams were still making chances against us. A lot of chances.
Him returning is not enough to improve the midfield to the level it needs to be at.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
But we do play better possession football when he is on the field.
I'd blaim our fullbacks for that.
Evra has been awol far too much this season, theres normally a huge hole at LB for players to run into. RB has also been an issue, but this is ultimatly the issue when we play a team with so many attacking minded young players.
Evra has, if anything, been playing slightly better this season.
On the right we've mainly had Smalling or Jones. I fail to see how either of them are a bigger defensive liability than Rafael was in previous seasons.
Valencia's been a bit of a weak link at the back but didn't play in any of the games featuring Cleverley.
Oh and I made a mistake when I said Cleverley had only played two league games for us this season. He also started WBA away. A team performance that was arguably worse than against Norwich. A very late appearance from our old friend OG papered over a lot of cracks.
The off the ball movement was so static against Norwich. Most the players would be Carricking, passing the ball and then dropping back, as opposed to making a run forward into space. Anderson especially, was suprisingly a culprit of this. When Cleverley comes back, he will inject energy and urgency into our midfield and hopefully that will rub off on Anderson.
I don't really care about us being more open at the back. It's been a problem the last two games because we were too open AND playing like a complete bag o shite...and in one of those games we had Carrick playing. If you play like shite you're going to struggle regardless of anything else.
What do people want, open attacking football that's great to watch and has us scoring a bag full of goals even against the likes of Chelsea? Or go back to last season where we spent large proportions of games sitting on the edge of our own area doing nothing?
Agree with Pogue that Cleverley's importance has been blown out of all proportion though. I love his aggressive pro-active approach compared to some of our other midfielders, and how comfortable he is taking possession and moving forwards with it, but he's played four games. Since then Anderson's form has tailed off and our defence has taken a lot of hits with injuries. Rooney has also been rubbish the last couple of games he's played. Fletcher will need a few more outings yet before you can start judging if he's back on his game. Give the season a chance to take a bit of shape before making too many judgements about who we're reliant on.
I also still think not getting a midfielder in is going to feck us over later in the season, Cleverley or not.
What do people want, open attacking football that's great to watch and has us scoring a bag full of goals even against the likes of Chelsea? Or go back to last season where we spent large proportions of games sitting on the edge of our own area doing nothing?
Agree with Pogue that Cleverley's importance has been blown out of all proportion though. I love his aggressive pro-active approach compared to some of our other midfielders, and how comfortable he is taking possession and moving forwards with it, but he's played four games. Since then Anderson's form has tailed off and our defence has taken a lot of hits with injuries. Rooney has also been rubbish the last couple of games he's played. Fletcher will need a few more outings yet before you can start judging if he's back on his game. Give the season a chance to take a bit of shape before making too many judgements about who we're reliant on.
I also still think not getting a midfielder in is going to feck us over later in the season, Cleverley or not.
Not really. I'd say we play quicker football with him on the field because he plays lots of one twos and is a good forward dribbler, but we're defensively weaker with him on the pitch than Carrick on the pitch.
Either way, midfield is lacking, and whilst Cleverley is a talented fellow with a lot to offer, he isn't the solution. But we all knew that before the season began anyway.
I also find Pogues current views hilarious given that a few weeks ago he was slating me for saying we shouldn't be throwing too much praise on the lad yet.
I've no doubt Cleverley would inject a bit of energy into the game but us looking a bit tired and sloppy against Norwich isn't really that big a deal IMO, you look at the best team of all time Barca just yesterday and they looked equally lethargic and lacking ideas in the final third. It happens. Especially after a midweek CL game, we see it all the time. Never mind our two main strikers not fully fit.
Cleverley's definitely an asset but the idea that without him we're completely lost is a bit bizarre. Just another way to complain about Fletcher and Carrick I guess.
Absolutely, it's been far too easy for teams just to skip out the midfield and hit their front-men with long balls and immediately have our defenders scampering about the place. Vidic will make a huge difference there. Doesn't change how they're also cutting through our midfield though.
Cleverley's definitely an asset but the idea that without him we're completely lost is a bit bizarre. Just another way to complain about Fletcher and Carrick I guess.
Absolutely, it's been far too easy for teams just to skip out the midfield and hit their front-men with long balls and immediately have our defenders scampering about the place. Vidic will make a huge difference there. Doesn't change how they're also cutting through our midfield though.
Eh?
You were just doing your usual moaning about central midfield shtick. Cleverley's start to this season has been really encouraging and if you read my first post this morning you'll see how highly I rate him. If that's not something to be excited about, what is?
I said the thread had "gone completely overboard", obviously in regard to the amount of praise being heaped upon him and namely people saying he was the missing link in our midfield after 3 games.
I rate him too and had said nothing to suggest I didn't, and there was no mention of the midfield itself until people brought it on me (i.e. Brwned)
But looking back you weren't actually one of those saying he WAS the solution, so fair enough, my apologies on that.
I rate him too and had said nothing to suggest I didn't, and there was no mention of the midfield itself until people brought it on me (i.e. Brwned)
But looking back you weren't actually one of those saying he WAS the solution, so fair enough, my apologies on that.
Looks like the Boss is hoping for Cleverley (Vida and Smalling) to be available against Liverpool. Underlines how important to our midfield the manager thinks Tom is.
I agree with Escobar. With Cleverley on the field our possession retention and use has been better than without him. Yes, he's had quiet moments (who wouldn't as a kid being introduced into the United first XI?) but when he's been at the races we've been much better for it.
No need to apologise. I probably am guilty of wanting to have my cake and eat it, regarding Cleverley.
I'm in broad agreement with you that we needed to sign at least one central midfielder in the summer. To replace Gibson (who Fergie obviously thinks isn't good enough) if nothing else. Now that we haven't, I'm really pleased with how well Cleverley has taken his chance but I can't shake the nagging doubts that he still won't be enough to make the difference in big games.
If we're to have a really good season again, we'll need both Carrick and Fletcher to perform better than they did in 10/11 (although Carrick's been good enough so far this calendar year) and it's a huge ask to expect Cleverley to pick up the slack if they don't.
you can not deny we improved greatly with his intro against city at half though...
I am remembering that correctly aren't I?
I'd bet on Fletcher being better for sure, given all his problems last year it'd be hard for him not to improve. You never know with Carrick, he has looked good but you can't count on him to keep it consistent anymore, here's hoping.
Really though it's still the attack carrying us this year and I think it'll continue to be the case if we're going to go and win things. Rooney, Nani, Young, Giggs and even Welbeck have been the ones bailing us out or destroying teams.
I dont think SAF has a midfield 2 or 3 in mind - he will rotate them as needed to keep them fresh and also due to the inevitable injuries and dips in form as the season progresses.
The makeup of the central midfield is important but when your backline is chopping and changing due to a massive injury list your tendency as a midfielder is perhaps to play more circumspect than you would when you are confident in the back line?
I think we fall into the trap of believing one player will sort out the problems - drop Vidic back into defence, Cleverley into midfield and Rooney back up top - and everything is Rosey. However as SAF mentioned as long as 8 players shine they can cover for the other 3.
Football is a funny old game and sometimes you can throw logic out of the window.
The makeup of the central midfield is important but when your backline is chopping and changing due to a massive injury list your tendency as a midfielder is perhaps to play more circumspect than you would when you are confident in the back line?
I think we fall into the trap of believing one player will sort out the problems - drop Vidic back into defence, Cleverley into midfield and Rooney back up top - and everything is Rosey. However as SAF mentioned as long as 8 players shine they can cover for the other 3.
Football is a funny old game and sometimes you can throw logic out of the window.
To be fair, Cleverley DID show both of them up hugely as comfort zone players with his start to the season and confidence/eagerness to take hold of games, and neither of them have exactly come back with an answer as yet.
Fletcher has the valid excuse of needing more games, Carrick was good against Bolton but has looked completely devoid of confidence since. Both of them need to step up really if they want to be first choice, otherwise Cleverley will be walking back into the team on his attitude alone.
He was outstanding against Basle. In terms of quality on the ball, that was as good a display as anything he's produced in a United shirt. If anything, he was too confident, hence getting a bit too far forward at times.
I'm sensing the sneijder debate returning here. He would've massively improved our squad though.
Think we finished with Park and Fletcher in the middle the other day, that makes me feel a bit queezy. Although I'm ill at the moment.
Outstanding in Carrick terms isn't the same as outstanding in standard footballing terms.
He was most certainly not 'outstanding' in standard terms. Maybe in comparison to his usual performances.
Not at all. he was superb against basel irrespective of the yardstick you use.
He didnt really protect the back 4 as well as he'd normally do though. was far more attacking in his approach. had a very good game though imo
No one was outstanding against Basle. We were bordering on unprofessional. I remember Carrick being bizarrely high up the pitch but he was hardly taking the game by the scruff of the neck.No, he was "outstanding" by any terms.
Can't normally be arsed watching the "individual highlights" videos that Boss likes to post but would love to get hold of one from Carrick from that particular game. Nobody could watch his overall performance again and fail to appreciate how well he played.
No, no, no. he might have been good, but he was not superb. When I think of a superb or outstanding performance, my mind automatically goes back to Kaka against us at Old Trafford, in the CL Semi Final in 2007. Now that was a superb performance.
I wish people would stop holding Carrick's performance against Basel to such a high regard. He played good, nothing more, nothing less. In my opinion, obviously.
Not entirely sure what you mean by "taking the game by the scruff of the neck". It's a little bit vague as a means of judging whether someone played well or not.
What I do know is that Carrick was excellent against Basle. Barely misplaced a pass all game and was constantly incisive and accurate in his use of the ball. I think someone posted a stat about him actually making more forward passes than he did sideways or backwards. Also worked his bollocks off trying to close down the wide open spaces left by our lunatic "defenders". A really top class performance.
Yes, but every single player was great in that game. But, yes, Carrick perform outstanding in that match.
He played just as well against Basle as he did against Roma. The goal being the only obvious difference to his individual performance. The other important difference being the difference in the level of performance from the rest of our team (and the opposition!).
He was similarly excellent against Schalke last season actually. Purely in terms of his own individual performance there's not a lot to choose between those three games.
Here are the stats from the Basle game, I was talking about.
Look at the overall accuracy and how well he passed the ball forwards and/or in the final third.
Obviously anyone who decided he didn't play well will find a way to discount them but without any objective measures it'd just a case of differing opinions. Whichever way you cut it, though, for a central midfielder to pass the ball as progressively and accurately as he did in that game is pretty fecking impressive.
Look at the overall accuracy and how well he passed the ball forwards and/or in the final third.
Obviously anyone who decided he didn't play well will find a way to discount them but without any objective measures it'd just a case of differing opinions. Whichever way you cut it, though, for a central midfielder to pass the ball as progressively and accurately as he did in that game is pretty fecking impressive.
Cleverley wont stop other teams from creating chances, but he will ensure we keep the ball well, that he creates space and we have a creative urgency in our play.
IMO, he's done better than Fletcher and Carrick so far and I hope he continues where he left once he returns. Whether we will go back to our best attacking football immediately, is another question.
IMO, he's done better than Fletcher and Carrick so far and I hope he continues where he left once he returns. Whether we will go back to our best attacking football immediately, is another question.
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