What's all this 'systematic targeting' nonsense on players like Scholes etc? You've just been constantly making things up and re-writing history as well now. I wasted far too much time in here as it is..
Tom Cleverley | 2011/12 Performances
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What's all this 'systematic targeting' nonsense on players like Scholes etc? You've just been constantly making things up and re-writing history as well now. I wasted far too much time in here as it is..
Yeah but how do we know Kevin Davies wasn't systematically targeted over a period of time during his youth team days and so resorted to the type of play we now see from him?
As a matter of fact how do we know he wasn't targeted by his father throughout his childhood in a series of randomly violent attacks which ended with him being grabbed by both his ears and suspended in mid air till he submitted and called him uncle?....and further more how do we know that Kevin wasn't targetted whilst he was still in the womb by his father who would chose a random corner around his childhood home to hide behind before jumping out just as his heavily pregnant mother was passing by and then proceeding to hold her down and slap her repeatedly on the stomach in an desperate attempt to hit Kevin?
How do we know that his whole tough guy act isn't a reaction to years of being targetted by his fictional alcoholic father?
How do we know?
Look the way I remember it back in the mid 90s when Scholesy was coming through midfield play was about bullying the other guy. It was customary for even the likes of Gary McAllister to leave the foot in thats what Premier League football was all about and that's what Scholes faced when he came into the team. He wasn't dirty he was just a product of his environment. If you want to insist he was dirty that's upto you. And if you want to insist that Latin American football is as physical as mid 90s English football thats upto you too. You'd be wrong on both counts though. To try and make out that Scholes didn't develop his style of play in direct response to the situation he found himself up against the Wimbledon way etc is more nonsense than anything I've said. Tons of players like Denis Wise in the foreign league, tons...
Look the way I remember it back in the mid 90s when Scholesy was coming through midfield play was about bullying the other guy. It was customary for even the likes of Gary McAllister to leave the foot in thats what Premier League football was all about and that's what Scholes faced when he came into the team. He wasn't dirty he was just a product of his environment. If you want to insist he was dirty that's upto you. And if you want to insist that Latin American football is as physical as mid 90s English football thats upto you too. You'd be wrong on both counts though. To try and make out that Scholes didn't develop his style of play in direct response to the situation he found himself up against the Wimbledon way etc is more nonsense than anything I've said. Tons of players like Denis Wise in the foreign league, tons...
English football has never been about 'leaving the foot in'. It's been a tough, physical league at times, but you are far over exaggerating the case to try and justify your 'theory' of how Scholes turned into a dirty bugger.
I have never said that South American football was the same, but if you watch some of the tackling there, it is on at least a par with English football. The difference is mainly the pace of the game and the differing style of play, with English football typically more direct.
There was only one Denis Wise in the English league also..
One Denis Wise, one Vinny Jones, one David Batty, one...I could go on cant be bothered. Latin American football is highly amusing that free kicks tend to be awarded more for dives than for blatant fouls but you cannot possibly compare Latin American football over the past 2 decades to English football in terms of physicality.
Some of the tackling in Italian football over that time has been every bit as cynical as some of the stuff you see in England: key word is "some". English football particularly 20 years ago was far more physical than anything you'll find anywhere now apart from in the Championship and Leagues 1 and 2.
If you don't believe playing against midfielders that persistently kicked him made Scholes react as I said that's up to you. I cannot recall Scholes starting off as a rash tackler though and as Keano said to Jamie Redknapp Scholes was more than capable of tackling but he learnt to protect himself cos he was a small guy. I'll take Keano's word for it rather than debate it anymore with you.
Jesus Christ. You know you're arguing with someone that lacks perspective when the mid-90s (a few years AFTER the start of the Premier League) is being portrayed as the dark ages of cloggers and hatchet-men.
I wonder if we can ever rescue this thread.
So, Tom Cleverley then...
What do you lot think? Can he make the grade?
Hey, at least I try to stay on topic
What do you lot think? Can he make the grade?
Hey, at least I try to stay on topic
Amazing eh?
The "all short PL footballers are psychopaths" tangent was also intriguing but championo made a fair point, we've probably gone off-piste enough by now.
BBC Sport - Fabio Capello keen to let Tom Cleverley and Phil Jones shine
Looks like he'll recover in time to get his chance for England. Hopefully Wilshere is back by then too and we can see what England look like with two comfortable possession players in their midfield.
Looks like he'll recover in time to get his chance for England. Hopefully Wilshere is back by then too and we can see what England look like with two comfortable possession players in their midfield.
It probably happens to more people than you thinkWhat a load of rubbish.
Talented players do get kicked, often because their ability gives them an advantage in nipping a ball away and sometimes becasue players want to put them out of their stride.
Its all part of the game. Players like Roy Keane would do it, as would most United centre backs.
Justify it any way you like, but Paul Scholes got a way with some terrible tackles which if they'd been made by a Dicks or a Bowyer would probably have resulted in a red card.
Its only my opinion but Scholesy was cleverer that he got credit for, and a lot of the time probably knew exactly what he was doing, hiding behind his reputation of being a poor tackler allowed him to get away with a lot and fair play to him, as I said, all part of the game.
I wonder if some of those bemoaning the inherent physicality of the PL will have the same view the next time Wenger starts moaning about how his side are getting kicked up in the air and not being allowed to knock the ball around without threat of being tackled.
Just because some people think that particular tackle dirty doesn't mean they agree with Wenger.
But I'll agree generally that I don't want the physical side taken from the EPL, that's a large part of what makes it so much better than any other league, imho.
But I'll agree generally that I don't want the physical side taken from the EPL, that's a large part of what makes it so much better than any other league, imho.
He's wank and doesn't suit us at all so I have been told.
Scouse?
City
Makes sense.
He has everything in his locker to suggest he'll make it.
I may actually enjoy watching England if we start playing Cleverley and Wilshere in midfield.
If Capello has any sense whatsoever, he will build this next England team around the current United one. Rooney, Young, Welbeck, Cleverley, Morrison, Ferdinand, Jones and Smalling...it''s mouth-watering stuff potentially when you add Wilshere to the mix.
Unfortunately, he's probably going to carry on playing all 3 of Milner, Barry and Downing in the same fecking team.
It doesn't really matter, Capello will be gone this time next year!
Indeed. Look at how spain benefit from having a large core of players playing together week in week out at a quality club. I'd say that understanding can be more important than talent sometimes. for arguement sake, lets say in 3 years Welbeck isn't our most talented striker but he will have an understanding with Young and Rooney and that is priceless. 11 players playing the same game rather than 11 individuals which England has been for a good 30 years.
As much as I agree, I don't think he'll be around long enough to do so - nor willing to "start over" at this point. After 2012 I would not be surprised if the FA appoints yet another traditional manager who ditch the kids for "proper" experienced players in their late 20s/early 30s.
Hopefully I'll be proven wrong. I think the international stage needs England back in the race.
Agreed - for me the decks should have been cleared after the world cup.
Germany have done a great job - keeping a few experienced campaigners and bringing in youth.
England should have moved on with a core 7 or 8 players with experience and ability and then gone with younger lads. The Euro's this year may have been a learning curve but they should still have had enough to qualify. If not then so what - building for the World Cup should be a priority.
Why?
History? Rivalries? The Premier League is the most popular league in the world and like it or not, England is a big name in football and people are interested in them.
It's not that they support them or anything, it can be quite the opposite, I don't support Germany but I love the fact they are a force on the International stage because it adds to the whole story.
There are plenty of teams that have their own style and reasons for drawing audiences and adding to the entertainment factor. Netherlands, Spain, Brazil, Germany, Italy, France ect ect. I think we could do with a good Czech team again, in the same way we could do with a good England team.
Pretty much this. In addition, I think it would greatly benefit clubs in England and particularly the PL if England succeeded; slowing down on spending sprees and nurturing from within could take priority to a wider extent.
Yes, we could, but we'll never have a good team unless the wider public adjust their expectations and stop harping on about 1966. The simple truth is that we're not very good at football, and we're a bunch of chokers to boot. The sooner people accept this, the sooner good solutions get proposed.
People have accepted that now IMO.
It's just the media which harps on because it sells and the media that stacks the pressure and expectation.
I've said since last year after the world cup that we need to scrap this generation of players and give experience to the younger players so they can develop as an international team together exactly how Germany did with the Euro's.
Smalling, Jones, Cahill, Sturridge, Cleverley, Young, Rooney, Wilshire and Welbeck, Gibbs and should be the core of this team now, replacing Lampard, Gerrard, Barry, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole and Crouch. Whats the point in the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Terry ect ect playing now? They will be past thier peak come 2014 and the players coming into their peak will be another team of individuals that are coming to their peak but have no experience together.
I fully agree. We ought to have a proper cycle of planning for major championships, as it is, we seem to lurch from one qualification game to the next. If we win, everything's is the dog's, if we lose or draw, suddenly all the cracks burst open and we're back where we started.
I think though, if the casual football watching public actually accepted we were quite shite, the papers would have to stop writing about it, because it wouldn't sell. People who are interested in football know we're quite shite, but there aren't enough of us around to change the agenda.
Come back asap boy.
We get a good draw in our toughest game of the group and all you have is threads being bumped to moan, about players we've missed or players that aren't good enough. Mental. It's like we've never played a tough away game before. Will be interesting to see later in the season when we have a tough CL away and don't play mesmerising football even with these players we're seemingly lost without.
He's going to walk back into the team when he's fit.
Indeed.
literally!
Was always going to happen. The positivity of the last couple of weeks was far too out of character for most of the gimps on here.
We're doomed without Cleverley, doomed I tell you.
I mean, look what happened when he went off in the 5th minute against Bolton. Oh wait...
Before the season started he wasn't good enough to make the difference in midfield, and now the midfield is lost without him.
Go figure.
It's mental, it really is.
That said, I'd really like to see how he does in the role Giggs played last night. I think he'd be great if he had the freedom to really press on and focus on linking up with the front three.
Exactly.
I was watching the game with my teenage sons and nephews, and all they did all game was moan about Carrick, Fletcher and Giggs and missing Cleverley. This was a game where a job needed to be done and we got a very good result. The game also gave a lot of players much needed game time whilst giving the young players some rest. Basically a good nights work.
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