Tom Cleverley | 2011/12 Performances

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Pogue Mahone said:
Are you serious? Put him out of the game for 6 months but just so long as nothing's broken, eh?



Again. Are you serious? The point being made is that Scholes regularly makes challenges far clumsier/reckless than Davies' at the weekend. As with loads of people in this thread, you're judging the tackle on the outcome, which is daft. Using that logic, you're unlikely to ever see a worse tackle than the one which left Valencia with his foot hanging off.



He said he would give Phil Jones "a going over". He's a physical player, who enjoys throwing his weight around and testing the mettle of defenders. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Football isn't a non-contact sport and we relish it when United players crunch the opposition. Double standards to react like a bunch of old women just because someone gets hurt in a moderately clumsy challenge.

This whole thread is a bit embarrassing. It's amazing that so many people who watch so much football seem unable to tell the difference between tackles that are genuinely dangerous and an unfortunate injury that results from a not particularly nasty challenge.
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I agree that the challenge wasn't a particularly dangerous one and the injury was unfortunate, but it was a bad challenge and he obviously did set out to leave a bit of a mark on him.

That is still dirty play, against the rules and etiquette of football, despite what draconian views you might have that I am sure have only been enhanced by the view of the continental player's and their theatrics. "men's game", "used to be a contact sport" blah, blah, blah.

At the end of the day, Cleverley is a very talented young player who is trying to play the game the right way. Kevin Davies is an incredibly limited player who has made a career out of being physical and roughing oponents up and generally being a nuisence. 6ft, 13 stone Davies clattered into the back of 4 inches and 3 stone lighter Cleverley because he knew it was the only way he was going to be able to stop him in that game.


If that's commendable to you, then I don't think we'll ever agree.
 
'rule and etiquette of football' jesus...it's the type of challenge you see numerous times, slightly mistimed and definite foul but no malice and the injury was unlucky. Some people need to get a grip, if that's a draconian view god help the future of football.
 
SharkyMcShark said:
Jonny Evans didn't break anyone's leg.

Paul Scholes has not to my memory ever forced an opponent out of a game with a late tackle.I think most people are annoyed because Davies was giving it the mouth in the press about how he was on a mission to put himself about and less than five minutes in forced one of our lads out of the game with a shithouse tackle. When someone gives it the big un about how theyre going to get in our players faces and within 5 minutes rules out Cleverley for a month then I think you can understand the outrage.
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I would suggest that's down to good fortune more than anything else.

Great player, could never tackle and in my opinnion got away with a lot because he was such an amiable bloke. People seemed to assume that tackles were just mistimed but I'd guess that there will have been one or two where he knew what he was doing - the red card agaisnt City in the FA cup semi final last year was a bad one.

The injury caused to Cleverly was very unlucky and innocuous at best. There is no way from that tackle anyone can suggest that he intentionally tried to injure him.
 
Poor challenge deserved a yellow, obviously Davids was really pumped up for this game and was determined to rough up this young United side. Great to see our players didn't let Bolton scare them...
 
It's not that he "intentionally tried to injure him", Davies goes in early in games to "let people know he's there" which is football bollocks for giving him a kick so he doesn't wanna come near me.

It was cnutish when the Leeds yobs used to do it, it was cnutish when Keane used to do it and it's still cnutish now.
 
Pexbo said:
I agree that the challenge wasn't a particularly dangerous one and the injury was unfortunate, but it was a bad challenge and he obviously did set out to leave a bit of a mark on him.

That is still dirty play, against the rules and etiquette of football, despite what draconian views you might have that I am sure have only been enhanced by the view of the continental player's and their theatrics. "men's game", "used to be a contact sport" blah, blah, blah.

At the end of the day, Cleverley is a very talented young player who is trying to play the game the right way. Kevin Davies is an incredibly limited player who has made a career out of being physical and roughing oponents up and generally being a nuisence. 6ft, 13 stone Davies clattered into the back of 4 inches and 3 stone lighter Cleverley because he knew it was the only way he was going to be able to stop him in that game.


If that's commendable to you, then I don't think we'll ever agree.
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Commendable? Wtf?

When did I say anything of the sort?

All I'm doing is judging the tackle on it's merits. Not Davies' track record as a footballer, not the relative size of the two players or any of the other bollocks being dragged into the discussion to make a clumsy challenge seem far worse than it actually was.

Tackles like that happen all the time in football. It wasn't even the worst tackle in the game, never mind the worst tackle of the weekend, or in any kind of longer time-frame. Which is why all the righteous indignation is waaaaaaay over the top.
 
Well, I'm just a Yank, so I nearly always just assume you guys are right. It must not be as dangerous as I think, I've not seen nearly as much football as most of you I'd think.

Am I wrong to think it's fairly common to see ankle injuries when someone goes through you from behind? Is that part of why they were outlawed by FIFA at one point? [honest question]
 
datura said:
'rule and etiquette of football' jesus...it's the type of challenge you see numerous times, slightly mistimed and definite foul but no malice and the injury was unlucky. Some people need to get a grip, if that's a draconian view god help the future of football.
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These tackles will always happen, that's fine, most of them are innocent.

What I think is a draconian view is that the intent in some of these challenges, if you don't think there was intent, fine.

I fear for the future of Football if as the game becomes more and more technical and advanced, players like Davies are going to become more common. Players that barely contribute to their own teams play other than to ruin the oppositions play through a series of fouls, a series of illigal acts.

I think you are confusing "hard play" and illigal play. I appreciate seeing Wesley Brown go flying into a challenge, win the ball and here a bloody great thump as he clatters the oponent and let's him know he's there. Flying into the back of someone half the size of you isn't the same. It's small time.
 
Pexbo said:
These tackles will always happen, that's fine, most of them are innocent.

What I think is a draconian view is that the intent in some of these challenges, if you don't think there was intent, fine.

I fear for the future of Football if as the game becomes more and more technical and advanced, players like Davies are going to become more common. Players that barely contribute to their own teams play other than to ruin the oppositions play through a series of fouls, a series of illigal acts.

I think you are confusing "hard play" and illigal play. I appreciate seeing Wesley Brown go flying into a challenge, win the ball and here a bloody great thump as he clatters the oponent and let's him know he's there. Flying into the back of someone half the size of you isn't the same. It's small time.
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I'm not confusing anything. If the game becomes more technical, players like Davies will become relics, I don't really understand your logic there at all.

As Pogue said, size is irrelevant. He didn't fly into the back if him either, buy don't let facts get in the way of your logic!

Ps illegal not illigal.
 
SharkyMcShark said:
I used to think the same but come on, 17 years and over 600 games of good fortune?
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Yes.

Some of his tackling was absolutely terrible - a lot worse that the one which injured Cleverly on Sunday.

He could very easily have injured someone flying in left right and centre.
 
Dion said:
It's not that he "intentionally tried to injure him", Davies goes in early in games to "let people know he's there" which is football bollocks for giving him a kick so he doesn't wanna come near me.

It was cnutish when the Leeds yobs used to do it, it was cnutish when Keane used to do it and it's still cnutish now.
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Every team in the PL does it.

Ferdinand and Vidic will be masters at it. You couldnt get by in the game without it.

You'd think some people on here would want football to become a non contact sport.
 
Pexbo said:
I agree that the challenge wasn't a particularly dangerous one and the injury was unfortunate, but it was a bad challenge and he obviously did set out to leave a bit of a mark on him.

That is still dirty play, against the rules and etiquette of football, despite what draconian views you might have that I am sure have only been enhanced by the view of the continental player's and their theatrics. "men's game", "used to be a contact sport" blah, blah, blah.

At the end of the day, Cleverley is a very talented young player who is trying to play the game the right way. Kevin Davies is an incredibly limited player who has made a career out of being physical and roughing oponents up and generally being a nuisence. 6ft, 13 stone Davies clattered into the back of 4 inches and 3 stone lighter Cleverley because he knew it was the only way he was going to be able to stop him in that game.


If that's commendable to you, then I don't think we'll ever agree.
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Were you outraged when we roughed up Arsenal?
 
Bolton striker Kevin Davies has confirmed he spoke to Tom Cleverley following the tackle that left the Manchester United midfielder with ankle ligament damage and says the 22-year-old was "fine" about it.

Cleverley faces around four weeks on the sidelines as a result of the incident during the first half of Saturday's Barclays Premier League clash at the Reebok Stadium.

Messages posted on a fake Tom Cleverley Facebook page on Saturday night claimed the United player was angry and that Davies had not apologised.

United made clear this account was not genuine and Davies' wife, Emma, who herself received abusive messages via Twitter, tweeted to say there had been contact.

Davies, 34, also confirmed on Monday he had spoken with Cleverley after initially being unaware of the extent of the injury, telling Sky Sports News: "Tackle-wise I've not seen it back.

"I spoke to Tom Cleverley, I was made to believe he had got a fracture or something so when I got home, I didn't realise after the game, I've seen the reports going on with the game so I put a call in to him and he was fine.

"I'm pleased there was no serious damage to him.

"After that, it was a tackle which maybe I mis-timed and I got a yellow card which was just deserved, so for me I'm not sure what it's all about."

It was initially feared that Cleverley had broken a bone and could have been out for much longer, but he underwent a scan yesterday which confirmed the injury was not as bad as first thought.

The youngster will miss the start of the Champions League group stage and a possible England debut in next month's Euro 2012 qualifier against Montenegro but should be back in action in November.

Davies said that Cleverley did not think the tackle that injured him was that bad.

He added: "By all accounts he had a fake account and people said I didn't offer him an apology, but I didn't know.

"If I'd have known of course I would've gone to see him. So that's why I got his number and put a call in. I actually texted him and he rang me back, he said he'd seen the tackle and didn't think it was that bad.

"So it's all fine, it's all done and dusted for me, it's a contact sport, it's a derby, I was trying to do my bit for Bolton to win the game. It's a side of my game.

"For me it's done and you move on."

DAVIES: NO ISSUE WITH CLEVERLEY | Football Transfer News, Football News, Fixtures, Results, Match Reports, Stats
 
datura said:
I imagine he was bemoaning our poor on pitch etiquette over a nice glass of Pimms and a prawn sandwich.
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Yeah that's right..... Twat.

Actually its funny that game was brought up because it was completely over exaggerated, Neville put in two poor challenges on Reyes that day and hit him hard and fair the rest of the time. I don't agree with the unfair challenges and I find it funny that something that isn't part of the game at all, is seen as "part of the game".

Like I said, there's no finer sight in football than a brilliantly timed challenge that is hard and fair. If someone manages to slide in and take all the ball and give the opponent a crack on the follow through.... great stuff.

I just find it fraustrating to watch a good bit of play broken up by some clumsey twat because he hasn't got the speed of feet or speed of thought to do it fairly. It's no different to having a dive because you know you're not good enough to beat your opponent, yet it seems to be ok to blast the likes of Gerrard or Ronaldo for doing that. How is this any different?

It all stems from people like Wenger trying to take it to the extreme and virtually rule out contact all together because it suits his team. I don't want that at all, I just don't like to see shit players using fouling as a tactic.
 
Kevin Davies said:
"After that, it was a tackle which maybe I mis-timed and I got a yellow card which was just deserved, so for me I'm not sure what it's all about."
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Well, you didn't, but oh well.
 
datura said:
What people seem to fail to grasp is that given the speed of the game there is very little margin between a 'good' and 'bad' tackle.
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What others fail to grasp is that not all footballers are angels and some do set out to give people a bit of a kicking to limit their play.

According to some that's fine, I don't agree, but whatever. Each to their own, I could argue about it for forever but some people have different opinions and that's their choice. Everyone is entitled to have a completely wrong opinion :lol:
 
Kelvin said:
"If I'd have known of course I would've gone to see him. So that's why I got his number and put a call in. I actually texted him and he rang me back, he said he'd seen the tackle and didn't think it was that bad.
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Well you don't expect he'd say, "feck off you cnut, you knew what you were doing and now I'm fecked for a month." Anyone's going to be diplomatic in Cleverley's situation and I'd be very surprised if that's what he really thought. Of course it's going to be Davies talking to the papers trying to make himself less of a villain.
 
forevrared said:
Well you don't expect he'd say, "feck off you cnut, you knew what you were doing and now I'm fecked for a month." Anyone's going to be diplomatic in Cleverley's situation and I'd be very surprised if that's what he really thought. Of course it's going to be Davies talking to the papers trying to make himself less of a villain.
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He could not take the call. If I thought someone had deliberately set out to injure me (like Carragher on Nani) then I wouldn't accept an apology.
 
Pexbo said:
What others fail to grasp is that not all footballers are angels and some do set out to give people a bit of a kicking to limit their play.

According to some that's fine, I don't agree, but whatever. Each to their own, I could argue about it for forever but some people have different opinions and that's their choice. Everyone is entitled to have a completely wrong opinion :lol:
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That would be you, then.

Seriously the hypocrisy is ridiculous. Scholes used to put in these challenges all the time. They were rarely two footed or studs up, but he knew how to put across a message and I don't see what's wrong with that as long as the challenge isn't mean't to cause damage.

If we are faced with a gifted opponent who can't handle a bit of physical play and decide to rough him up a little (see Reyes) without any intention to cause long term physical damage, then what is wrong with that? The ref is there to brandish a yellow card. You accept the trade off gained from the offense as being beneficial for your team.

Are you seriously telling me that us putting in a few tough tackles in last seasons CL final, knowing that it would put Barcelona completely off their game, would be wrong? (hypothetical question alert! I know it wouldn't affect them the slightest)
 
Didn't mention it because I figured it'd already been posted, but for all you "Scholes used to do it, too" folks:

Since 2000:

Scholes: 369 fouls in 465 games, 89 yellows, 4 reds.
Davies: 894 fouls in 417 games, 100 yellows, 2 reds.

(From one of the Caftards' twitters.)

The two are barely even comparable.
 
forevrared said:
Didn't mention it because I figured it'd already been posted, but for all you "Scholes used to do it, too" folks:

Since 2000:

Scholes: 369 fouls in 465 games, 89 yellows, 4 reds.
Davies: 894 fouls in 417 games, 100 yellows, 2 reds.

(From one of the Caftards' twitters.)

The two are barely even comparable.
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That doesn't really show anything, if anything it shows that Scholes tackles were more then twice as likely to receive a card therefore you could surmise that his tackles were more dangerous...

A lot of the Davies fouls will be cheap backing in ones, Crouch normally gets quite a high foul count and he's hardly a dirty player.

Apparently Davies was also the most fouled player in the Premiership last year as well as committing the most fouls.
 
A journo (Andy Mitten) interviewed him earlier and says that seems to be the case:

Just interviewed Tom Cleverley. Davies called to apologise Sat night. And TC didn't make those quotes attributed to him on Facebook.
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Twitter
 
Loadsa people talking about Scholes. People seem to forget Scholes developed his ways to protect himself cos people like Davies used to 'let him know they're about'. I dont blame Scholesy for defending himself nor would I blame Cleverley for going in from behind on Davies next time we play Bolton. If hardman Kevin is gonna give it...
 
#07 said:
Loadsa people talking about Scholes. People seem to forget Scholes developed his ways to protect himself cos people like Davies used to 'let him know they're about'. I dont blame Scholesy for defending himself nor would I blame Cleverley for going in from behind on Davies next time we play Bolton. If hardman Kevin is gonna give it...
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What a load of bollocks. This thread keeps giving..
 
#07 said:
Loadsa people talking about Scholes. People seem to forget Scholes developed his ways to protect himself cos people like Davies used to 'let him know they're about'. I dont blame Scholesy for defending himself nor would I blame Cleverley for going in from behind on Davies next time we play Bolton. If hardman Kevin is gonna give it...
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:lol:
 
Ubik said:
A journo (Andy Mitten) interviewed him earlier and says that seems to be the case:



Twitter
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I was beginning to question cleverly a bit for those facebook comments immediately after half time.
He does not appear that type. If it was Rio, I would have not batted an eye.
I am glad it is not him doing all those silly updates.
 
datura said:
What a load of bollocks. This thread keeps giving..
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I can kinda understand what he is saying actually. Dog eat dog, growing up playing football I'm sure he used to have people kicking the shit out of him because of his ability and size so it would make sense if he took it upon himself to show that he can give as good as he can get.
 
Pexbo said:
I can kinda understand what he is saying actually. Dog eat dog, growing up playing football I'm sure he used to have people kicking the shit out of him because of his ability and size so it would make sense if he took it upon himself to show that he can give as good as he can get.
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Like players like Aguero, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta etc who are all similar height? He was just a dirty little sod, he effectively admitted as much in the interview with Paddy Crerand.
 
Pexbo said:
I can kinda understand what he is saying actually. Dog eat dog, growing up playing football I'm sure he used to have people kicking the shit out of him because of his ability and size so it would make sense if he took it upon himself to show that he can give as good as he can get.
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Thats exactly what Keano said when asked if Scholes could tackle. People seem to forget people like Scholes and Cantona didnt kick people for fun they got systematically targetted by players like Bowyer and Dicks and would eventually lash out.
 
datura said:
Like players like Aguero, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta etc who are all similar height? He was just a dirty little sod, he effectively admitted as much in the interview with Paddy Crerand.
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How about we list some players who grew up playing in England rather than through youth leagues in countries that offer huge protection to their players?

Let's think of some short footballers who played in the EPL? Dennis Wise? Roy Keane? Craig Bellamy? Robbie Fowler?
 
As for the tackle I think there is a general consensus that it was a bad tackle which resulted in an injury to one of our players, but not the worst tackle we've all seen.

What i think really irks people is the way Davies claimed he was going to be a physical force in the lead up to the game (a little too WWF for my liking) and then the way he chose a rookie, noted for his skill rather than the physical side of his game... who he towers over - to "stamp his mark" on the game. If Davies had tackled Vidic or tried slamming into Evans or Jones... I don't think we'd have the same level of anger towards him.

but a tackle from behind on a rookie, who's career is taking off is pretty cowardly.
 
Pexbo said:
How about we list some players who grew up playing in England rather than through youth leagues in countries that offer huge protection to their players?

Let's think of some short footballers who played in the EPL? Dennis Wise? Roy Keane? Craig Bellamy? Robbie Fowler?
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Since when has Roy Keane been short?!!

If you watched South American football skilful players get the treatment out there, nationality is irrelevant.
 
datura said:
Since when has Roy Keane been short?!!

If you watched South American football skilful players get the treatment out there, nationality is irrelevant.
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Rubbish. I regularly watch Latin American football and have for years now. My wife is Latin American and I spend lots of time there. You're talking absolute nonsense. There is quite a lot of physicality in Argentine football and its true that in Brazil skillful players get targeted but nothing compared to what you got exposed to when people like David Batty were systematically targeting a young Paul Scholes. I've never seen someone follow someone about the pitch turning his collar up, raking his foot down his calf like I saw "Razor" Ruddock do to Cantona in La Clasura or Apertura. How long have you actually watched English football? Some of your comparisons are just ridiculous.
 
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