Tom Cleverley | 2011/12 Performances

[Ole'sbodyguard]

I'm a big fan of Johnie but his tackle on Holden was much worse than the one Davies made on Cleverley. Not one of Johnie's finest moments for United.

In all honesty I don't know where this Davies debate is going. He is limited target man forward who tries to impose his physicality on opposition players and defenders. His style of play is to be rough and try and unsettle the opposition which he has perfected during his time at Bolton and he is also a hard working player. He will pick up plenty of cards through this but I have never had him down as a dirty forward alla Duncan Ferguson or someone who uses the elbows like Mary Poppins did. He's ten a penny in the English domestic league.

Other than the tackle on Evra yesterday I can't remember Davies ever doing anything against United that merited anything other than a yellow card or anything that merited a huge amount of outrage. Possibly a red card for persistent fouling but nothing so aggressive or violent as to be a straight red. I might be forgetting his aerial targetting of Pique and Evra in 2007/08.

 

[Stookie]

It exciting how we can just think of a replacement and not panic. Oh, so and so is injured, no worries so can slot in.
But at the moment, the only player who looks irreplaceable is Anderson imo, Rooney is close, but I think Berba can do an adequate job if needed.

Rooney is irreplaceable, Berbs could not do the same job as him. Everything goes through Rooney, he is the keystone for sure. If we lose Rooney for whatever reason it completely changes the dynamics of the team.

 

[Cutch]

And yet as I've argued some as with the first poster above have defended it, despite the fact that it was far more cnutish than Davies tackle on Tom which was more stupid than reckless or malicious.

One is two players coming together to both try and win the ball. The other is a wanna-be hardman setting a marker on one of our young players just as he promised he was gonna do all week.

 

[#07]

One is two players coming together to both try and win the ball. The other is a wanna-be hardman setting a marker on one of our young players just as he promised he was gonna do all week.

/ Case closed

 

[BAMSOLA]

I'm a big fan of Johnie but his tackle on Holden was much worse than the one Davies made on Cleverley. Not one of Johnie's finest moments for United.

In all honesty I don't know where this Davies debate is going. He is limited target man forward who tries to impose his physicality on opposition players and defenders. His style of play is to be rough and try and unsettle the opposition which he has perfected during his time at Bolton and he is also a hard working player. He will pick up plenty of cards through this but I have never had him down as a dirty forward alla Duncan Ferguson or someone who uses the elbows like Mary Poppins did. He's ten a penny in the English domestic league.

Other than the tackle on Evra yesterday I can't remember Davies ever doing anything against United that merited anything other than a yellow card or anything that merited a huge amount of outrage.

Correct. And thats exactly as anybody with a balanced opinion would see it.

One is two players coming together to both try and win the ball. The other is a wanna-be hardman setting a marker on one of our young players just as he promised he was gonna do all week.

Bollocks I posted a video which actually shows the build up as well as the incident, you have now resorted to posting silly stills to prove a point.

Why wouldn't the video which shows the actual incident with jonny going over the ball studs first and the aftermath be more conclusive than a bloody still before the moment of impact or showing the build up?

As for davies tackle nothing is conclusive from your still, he still looks like he's arrived late and caught Tom. Hardly crime of the century.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The reason Cleverley got injured was because Davies landed on his trailing foot and pushed it into the turf. Pure bad luck. He wasn't kicked. If Davies tried to do it again, I doubt he could. It was a clumsy and slightly reckless challenge but wasn't dangerous looking at all.

 

[Cutch]

Bollocks I posted a video which actually shows the build up as well as the incident, you have now resorted to posting silly stills to prove a point.

Why wouldn't the video which shows the actual incident with jonny going over the ball studs first and the aftermath be more conclusive than a bloody still before the moment of impact or showing the build up?

As for davies tackle nothing is conclusive from your still, he still looks like he's arrived late and caught Tom. Hardly crime of the century.

If he went over the ball as you say then how was the injury sustained to Holdens left leg, which was horizontal on the ground (As you can see on that still shot). If it was so high that it was over the ball it wouldnt have connected with Holdens knee in that case surely? Both players were committed to winning the ball and dived in with the studs showing, but Holden came off worse because Evans tackling foot came through him on the follow through. Red card was the right call but if Evans had went into a face on tackle like that in any other way he would have broke his leg as a result.

As for Davies he's came through the back of the player to try to win the ball when it was pretty much impossible to do so without injuring the other player.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah but Evans probably went into the tackle thinking "I'm gonna get this ball" whereas Davies just thought "I'm going to put this youngster in his place"

That's not true at all. He clearly went for the ball. He tried to hook his foot round and get to the ball but Tom was too quick for him. Davies was never favourite to get to the ball first but that did seem to be his intention.

 

[datura]

I don't think any of these idiots have actually watched the incident. He didn't go 'straight through the back of him' at all, he slid in from the side trying to nick the ball. His trailing leg seems to have caused the issue, but there was no malice at all, just bad luck really.

edit. Agreed Pogue. I was fighting a lonely fight last night and saying exactly the same as you, Ole and Bam.

 

[Makki]

The reason Cleverley got injured was because Davies landed on his trailing foot and pushed it into the turf. Pure bad luck. He wasn't kicked. If Davies tried to do it again, I doubt he could. It was a clumsy and slightly reckless challenge but wasn't dangerous looking at all.

The tackle in itself was clumsy, but it reeks of dirtiness and looks a lot like an obvious attempt to intimidate the opponent to come in that way from behind when the player is dribbling away from you.

 

[Eugenius]

That's not true at all. He clearly went for the ball. He tried to hook his foot round and get to the ball but Tom was too quick for him. Davies was never favourite to get to the ball first but that did seem to be his intention.

He knew there was very little chance of him getting the ball yet still fully committed himself to the tackle. That was because he wanted to hurt Cleverley, not to injure him but to try and put him off his game. Quite cnutish IMO.

 

[noodlehair]

It was a yellow card and then he should have been shown a straight red or at very least second yellow for the challenge on Evra. Personally think there was a case for him to walk for the challenge on Cleverley.

Benefit of doubt should go out the window when you hack someone from behind in the fifth minute after publicly mouthing off about how you're going to rough people up before the game.

If Suarez came out and said he was going to dive to win a penalty before a game, he'd lose any benefit of doubt and be booked if he ran into the area then fell over. Serious/intentional foul play is a red card. Referees in this country never seem to wise up to anything, even when the player in question is flaunting it in their face.

 

[BAMSOLA]

If he went over the ball as you say then how was the injury sustained to Holdens left leg, which was horizontal on the ground (As you can see on that still shot). If it was so high that it was over the ball it wouldnt have connected with Holdens knee in that case surely? Both players were committed to winning the ball and dived in with the studs showing, but Holden came off worse because Evans tackling foot came through him on the follow through. Red card was the right call but if Evans had went into a face on tackle like that in any other way he would have broke his leg as a result.

As for Davies he's came through the back of the player to try to win the ball when it was pretty much impossible to do so without injuring the other player.

Here is the incident again watch carefully on both 0:24 secs and again on 0:39, its not rocket science as Holden's injured knee was directly behind the ball as Jonny went over the top of it and so caught the full inpact of his studs.

If after watching this you can't see it then I suggest you don't trouble yourself with it as seeing whats right in front of your own eyes clearly isn't a skill you posses.

I don't think any of these idiots have actually watched the incident. He didn't go 'straight through the back of him' at all, he slid in from the side trying to nick the ball. His trailing leg seems to have caused the issue, but there was no malice at all, just bad luck really.

edit. Agreed Pogue. I was fighting a lonely fight last night and saying exactly the same as you, Ole and Bam.

Tell me about it.

Its typical of people who either don't watch or don't understand the game and have a preprepared villian in their mind who they don't really need a good reason to bash.

And don't get me wrong his tackle of Evra was more than a little cnutish but frankly i've seen worse, Robinson's tackle on Jones was a million times worse and he is a genuinely dirty player.

Davies tackle on Tom was a big nothing.

 

[Cutch]

I don't think any of these idiots have actually watched the incident. He didn't go 'straight through the back of him' at all, he slid in from the side trying to nick the ball. His trailing leg seems to have caused the issue, but there was no malice at all, just bad luck really.

edit. Agreed Pogue. I was fighting a lonely fight last night and saying exactly the same as you, Ole and Bam.

[VIDEO] Disgusting Davies Tackle That Left Tom Cleverley With Broken Foot | Football Talk | Premier League News

Seriously, i think its you that needs to watch it again. He didnt 'slide in from the side' he's came through the back of him.

Fwiw i do think he was trying to win the ball but i think he was trying to take out the player at the same time, to lay down a marker early on. It was definately a reckless tackle.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He knew there was very little chance of him getting the ball yet still fully committed himself to the tackle. That was because he wanted to hurt Cleverley, not to injure him but to try and put him off his game. Quite cnutish IMO.

It's not the sort of tackle that hurts someone though. When you hook your legs round like that, you can't get any force into it. Just bad luck he landed on Tom's trailing leg. The Evra challenge was the type of tackle you make if you want to leave your mark on someone. The tackle on Cleverley was just clumsy.

 

[Cutch]

Here is the incident again watch carefully on both 0:24 secs and again on 0:39, its not rocket science as Holden's injured knee was directly behind the ball as Jonny went over the top of it and so caught the full inpact of his studs.

If after watching this you can't see it then I suggest you don't trouble yourself with it as seeing whats right in front of your own eyes clearly isn't a skill you posses.

Look, its a last ditch lunge in an attempt to win the ball in which the opposion player has unfortunately come off worse and has resulted in a red card. Fair enough, i'm not arguing with that.

But in Davies case its a tackle from a stupid position to try to win the ball and to soften up the other player early on. Both were reckless challenges but the difference being that Davies' was pre-meditated (given that we know what he's like as a player, done a similar tackle 5 minutes later, and spent all week bragging about it).

 

[Eugenius]

It's not the sort of tackle that hurts someone though. When you hook your legs round like that, you can't get any force into it. Just bad luck he landed on Tom's trailing leg. The Evra challenge was the type of tackle you make if you want to leave your mark on someone. The tackle on Cleverley was just clumsy.

Quite easy to get some studs right down the back of achilles/foot in that motion though. I think Davies decided in that tackle whatever happened in that tackle that Cleverley would end up being taken out and it's probably that mentality which has resulted in his injury at the bottom line. In my opinion, of course.

 

[Cutch]

It's not the sort of tackle that hurts someone though. When you hook your legs round like that, you can't get any force into it. Just bad luck he landed on Tom's trailing leg. The Evra challenge was the type of tackle you make if you want to leave your mark on someone. The tackle on Cleverley was just clumsy.

Its the reason that the tackle from behind was outlawed in the first place, because its dangerous and likely to cause injury. He didnt hook his legs as you say, he's poked his legs through. It was very likely he was going to take him down on the follow through. He couldn't have executed that type of tackle safely, unless he had adjusted his body to come in from the side with his left leg tackling.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He clearly hooked his legs round. Or at least tried to. Like I said, Cleverley was too quick for him and ran across Davies' lunge, which made the tackle look worse than it was.

A lot of you seem to be judging the challenge on the outcome, rather than it's own merits. 99 times out of 100 the worst that happens there is Cleverley getting tripped up. It's not the sort of challenge you would expect to hurt anyone. Unlike Evans', which was always a potentially nasty one (even though I think his intention was - like Davies -to play the ball)

 

[Cutch]

Quite easy to get some studs right down the back of achilles/foot in that motion though. I think Davies decided in that tackle whatever happened in that tackle that Cleverley would end up being taken out and it's probably that mentality which has resulted in his injury at the bottom line. In my opinion, of course.

Its what he's done all his career. The first thought is to win the ball, and the second is to hit the player hard. If he achieves both its a bonus.

My issue with this one is it was very difficult in this position to win the ball fairly and not to injure the player.

 

[noodlehair]

Here is the incident again watch carefully on both 0:24 secs and again on 0:39, its not rocket science as Holden's injured knee was directly behind the ball as Jonny went over the top of it and so caught the full inpact of his studs.

If after watching this you can't see it then I suggest you don't trouble yourself with it as seeing whats right in front of your own eyes clearly isn't a skill you posses.

So Holden's knee was "directly" behind the ball, and caught the full impact of Evans' studs because Evans went OVER the ball? You realise that makes no sense at all right?

Not that I'm really defending the challenge. He dived into the tackle which is why he was sent off, but you're last sentence is amusing considering your own version of events manages to contradict itself.

Anyway, the most concerning thing to emerge from this is that someone's sad enough to have made a series of "I ** Evans" youtube videos.

 

[datura]

[VIDEO] Disgusting Davies Tackle That Left Tom Cleverley With Broken Foot | Football Talk | Premier League News

Seriously, i think its you that needs to watch it again. He didnt 'slide in from the side' he's came through the back of him.

Fwiw i do think he was trying to win the ball but i think he was trying to take out the player at the same time, to lay down a marker early on. It was definately a reckless tackle.

He did slide in from the side - watch the video! the issue is that in doing so his trailing leg caught Cleverley, entirely unintentionally, and I assume that is what caused the injury.

I defy anyone to try and prove that he tried to 'do him' with his trailing leg.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Can I ask what has Davies said in the media which has made some posters impute an intention to injure our players?

He's singled out De Gea as being a possible weakness and said some crosses would be going in and he has said he would be giving our back four, singling out Jones a 'going over'. Considering he's a target man whose main attribute is his aerial strength and power, it's hardly a massive threat of injury is it and I'd have expected nothing less than an aerial bombardement and Davies making it a physical battle with our centre backs and defenders. He actually praises Jones as a strong defender and implies he is someone who should be able to deal with a physical battle.

Don't get me wrong I don't like Kevin Davies and his tackle on Evra should have been a straight red but there's nothing in his comments to suggest he was out to injure Cleverley and the tackle itself was not as bad as Johnie's tackle in the March game at Old Trafford.

Bolton have a history of targetting Evra, probably because he is the shortest of our back four prior to this season. It's not just Davies, it used to be Nolan, Campo and Diouf as well.

 

[noodlehair]

He did slide in from the side - watch the video! the issue is that in doing so his trailing leg caught Cleverley, entirely unintentionally, and I assume that is what caused the injury.

I defy anyone to try and prove that he tried to 'do him' with his trailing leg.

Have you ever been in a situation on a football pitch where you're not in control of what your own legs are doing? Doubt he meant to injure him but he hardly fouled him by accident did he?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Have you ever been in a situation on a football pitch where you're not in control of what your own legs are doing? Doubt he meant to injure him but he hardly fouled him by accident did he?

Erm... Regularly?

Have you never had an accidental tangle of legs when you're running past someone?

Not to mention when you might mistime a tackle and accidentally kick the other player instead of the ball. Happens all the time, surely?

 

[datura]

Have you ever been in a situation on a football pitch where you're not in control of what your own legs are doing? Doubt he meant to injure him but he hardly fouled him by accident did he?

I don't really understand what you are on about? I don't think he meant to foul him either, he simply misjudged a tackle.

 

[gooDevil]

I don't know, I don't think Cleverley sees Davies coming to cut across his path. Cleverley was running alongside the ball and doesn't even touch it till the moment of the tackle.

I think Davies saw he was at the perfect angle to get in a tackle AND clear him out, and Cleverley got unlucky getting his ankle pinned under Davies' left knee.

But that's what happens often enough when you do something like that, thus why I think it should be a red, so it isn't done. I don't want Davies to walk as much as I want a harsh rule for tackles from behind that would have made him think twice.

 

[BAMSOLA]

Look, its a last ditch lunge in an attempt to win the ball in which the opposion player has unfortunately come off worse and has resulted in a red card. Fair enough, i'm not arguing with that.

No its not a last ditch attempt to get the ball its a reckless lunge at the ball which starts with both feet leaving the ground and ends with a player having a large gash on his shin, not good.

Were it not for the fact that it is jonny - a player with little previous and a united player at that - you wouldn't be trying to pass it off a less malicious than Davies challenge on Tom.

But in Davies case its a tackle from a stupid position to try to win the ball and to soften up the other player early on. Both were reckless challenges but the difference being that Davies' was pre-meditated (given that we know what he's like as a player, done a similar tackle 5 minutes later, and spent all week bragging about it).

You are talking rubbish, for a start you have no idea what was going through davies head when he makes the tackle therefore to call it premeditated or a "tackle to soften up the other player" is daft. It clearly looks mistimed.

Yes he spent most of the week talking about going physical on our players, thats not a problem he's a physical player. I don't criticise Gary Neville for confirming that United knowingly went out to take a physical approach against Arsenal, its a mans game and we pride ourselves as a club on having mentally as well as physically strong players, why would I?

Its very different to deliberately causing injury to an oponent. And as for you knowing what Davies is like clearly you don't as he has always been a physical player but he's never really been known as a dirty one by anybody who's worth listening to.

 

[Cutch]

He clearly hooked his legs round. Or at least tried to. Like I said, Cleverley was too quick for him and ran across Davies' lunge, which made the tackle look worse than it was.

A lot of you seem to be judging the challenge on the outcome, rather than it's own merits. 99 times out of 100 the worst that happens there is Cleverley getting tripped up. It's not the sort of challenge you would expect to hurt anyone. Unlike Evans', which was always a potentially nasty one (even though I think his intention was - like Davies -to play the ball)

I think Evans had no choice other than to dive in, given that he'd been sold short with a loose ball, was the last man, and the other player was committing himself to the challenge.

In Davies case i think it was just stupid. Another player wouldn't have attempted to execute the tackle like that as it was really difficult to win the ball fairly from that position. Cleverley wasnt really going anywhere, so he should have just left himself time to adjust his body to put himself into a position to make the tackle fairly.

 

[datura]

I don't know, I don't think Cleverley sees Davies coming to cut across his path. Cleverley was running alongside the ball and doesn't even touch it till the moment of the tackle.

I think Davies saw he was at the perfect angle to get in a tackle AND clear him out, and Cleverley got unlucky getting his ankle pinned under Davies' left knee.

But that's what happens often enough when you do something like that, thus why I think it should be a red, so it isn't done. I don't want Davies to walk as much as I want a harsh rule that would have made him think twice.

You're saying it should have been a straight red for the challenge on Cleverley? Christ..

 

[eric le roi]

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere but they just said on MOTD2 that he'll be out for 4 weeks, so I guess it's not a broken foot.

 

[Diabo_Sam]

Still he's out and will miss important games, Davies is a cnut

Not sure how some have managed to take so much of the moral high ground considering Evans tackle on Holden last year.

So calling Davies a cnut started the debate!!!?
I think he's a cnut and has issues too.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think Evans had no choice other than to dive in, given that he'd been sold short with a loose ball, was the last man, and the other player was committing himself to the challenge.

In Davies case i think it was just stupid. Another player wouldn't have attempted to execute the tackle like that as it was really difficult to win the ball fairly from that position. Cleverley wasnt really going anywhere, so he should have just left himself time to adjust his body to put himself into a position to make the tackle fairly.

None of those are valid excuses for going into a tackle recklessly, with studs showing and not fully in control.

I defended Evans at the time but it was an extremely reckless challenge and carried a real risk of seriously hurting someone, even if that wasn't his intention. Davies' challenge was considerably less likely to cause any harm to someone.

 

[noodlehair]

Erm... Regularly?

Have you never had an accidental tangle of legs when you're running past someone?

Not to mention when you might mistime a tackle and accidentally kick the other player instead of the ball. Happens all the time, surely?

No, I don't think I've ever kicked someone unless I've wanted to. An accidental tangle of legs when running? Is that what happened then? Davies's legs were somehow magnetically drawn and tangled into Clverley's despite them being stood absolutely nowhere near each other?

Is that what happens every time he lunges into Evra with his studs too?

How any times do you let someone run up and accidentally tangle their legs int you before you'd consider they might not be doing it by accident?

I don't really understand what you are on about? I don't think he meant to foul him either, he simply misjudged a tackle.

He didn't mean to foul him?



Sorry for sounding like a cnut, but how naive can you get?

The only way he could have meant to foul him more obviously is by walking up and punching him in the back of the head, although he'd probably have just been stretching his arm out and caught him by accident, to be fair

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't know how so many of you can watch that video and not see that Davies' intention was to come round the side of Cleverly and win the ball with the heel of his right boot. Very strange. Pause it at 0:09. It's really not difficult to interpret. The foot with which he intends to make the tackle makes the most minor of contacts with Cleverly. Just bad luck his other, trailing leg clips Tom's heel and pushes his foot into the ground.

The mirror image of that situation is Gigg's trademark tackle. The only difference is that Davies was less controlled than Giggs usually is and Cleverley stepped across him at the last moment.

 

[BAMSOLA]

So Holden's knee was "directly" behind the ball, and caught the full impact of Evans' studs because Evans went OVER the ball? You realise that makes no sense at all right?

Not that I'm really defending the challenge. He dived into the tackle which is why he was sent off, but you're last sentence is amusing considering your own version of events manages to contradict itself.

Anyway, the most concerning thing to emerge from this is that someone's sad enough to have made a series of "I ** Evans" youtube videos.

There is no contradiction, just you not understanding the incident even though you should clearly be able to see it on the video.

If Jonny had made a standard tackle where his feet are level with the ball he wouldn't have been able to connect with Holden's shin as his studs would be coming toward holden in a horizontal motion and so would connect with the ball which was directly in front of his shin.

The fact that his feet have left the ground and the angle they are at means that he is coming down studs first almost diagonally with force meaning he goes over the top of the ball and down onto holden's shin.

It really shouldn't be that hard to understand its there on tape at 0:39 secs.

 

[datura]

He didn't mean to foul him?



Sorry for sounding like a cnut, but how naive can you get?

The only way he could have meant to foul him more obviously is by walking up and punching him in the back of the head, although he'd probably have just been stretching his arm out and caught him by accident, to be fair

If some people didn't find you amusing, you'd be a bit of a laughing stock for some of your opinions on football.

Of course he didn't mean to foul him, the second paragraph is your normal nonsense.

 

[noodlehair]

I don't know how so many of you can watch that video and not see that Davies' intention was to come round the side of Cleverly and win the ball with the heel of his right boot. Very strange.

There's only one angle that suggests he might have been trying to win the ball cleanly and even then it's dubious at best. Especially considering it's someone who spends the first ten minutes of every game he plays deliberately fouling people.

Again, are all of his tackles on Evra by accident too? If so he probably shouldn't be allowed on a football pitch, or anywhere his legs might be near anything valuable.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There's only one angle that suggests he might have been trying to win the ball cleanly and even then it's dubious at best. Especially considering it's someone who spends the first ten minutes of every game he plays deliberately fouling people.

Again, are all of his tackles on Evra by accident too? If so he probably shouldn't be allowed on a football pitch, or anywhere his legs might be near anything valuable.

The tackle he made on Evra was a nasty one, I agree. And he made a bad challenge on the same player the last time we played Bolton. There's obviously history between the two of them and he seems to make an effort to go in hard on Evra whenever he can.

The Cleverly tackle, though, wasn't very dangerous at all. Just a bit over-enthusiastic and unfortunate.

 

[noodlehair]

Are you two serious?

Look at his momentum going into the challenge for feck sake and the angle he came in from, instead of judging every thing from one poxy slow mo replay.

Is there some rule I don't know about where you're allowed to go through someone and take them out to get the ball, as long as you move one of your feet out of the way so it looks ok if replayed really slowly from the side?