I suspect because of the slight downside we've seen so far - he (along with Anderson) leaves the defence exposed quite often and at that end of the table it's too much of a risk. Given games I'm sure he'll develop that side of his game.
Tom Cleverley | 2011/12 Performances
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I suspect because of the slight downside we've seen so far - he (along with Anderson) leaves the defence exposed quite often and at that end of the table it's too much of a risk. Given games I'm sure he'll develop that side of his game.
played on the wing mostly in United youth teams as well tbf
Seconded.
Strange comparison since Cleverley is playing as an orthodox centre midfielder rather than in the hole which was Zidane's preferred position throughout his career.
I think he will absolutely thrive in a 3 man midfield with a holding/defensive mid. He won't have that much pressure on him to perform defensively as he has in a 2 man midfield.
Who is he most similar too, Modric or Wilshire? He reminds me a lot of Modric in playing style which is a big reason Fergie might not be so keen on splashing +£30 million on Modric at this stage, yes I'm aware Modric might not be interested in moving to Manchester anyway.
Modric can feck off. It is absolutely worthless to spend a penny more than £25m for him and Levy wants £35-40m. Both of them can feck off.
I agree, I really wanted Modric when the summer started but the emergence of Cleverley makes me think United got that area covered.
Neither to be honest. He's a very tidy and technically adept player who thinks incredibly quickly and has an infectious enthusiasm.. I'm not sure he has the ability on the ball that those two do. But he also comes across more of a fighter than Modric.
I disagree albeit not based on that much evidence as in the close season Cleverley only played in a three man midfield for England U21s and in that "Man Utd" select side that went to Monaco for that charity game.
However, Cleverley seems to shine the most when he's in the thick of it. Its possible this reflects the calibre of player he played with but both in that charity match and for England U21s in a three man midfield he ended up on the periphery a lot waiting for the ball to reach him. He was a passenger for large stretches of those games.
He only really came into his own during that Barcelona friendly in D.C. when Fergie played him in a two man centre midfield where he was able to come deep and get the ball off of our defenders and really get involved. He's constantly showing for the ball and wants to give and go constantly. Putting him in a position where he has to wait for someone else to make 'it' happen seems to frustrate him.
Game by game we're seeing an improvement in his understanding with Anderson. I noticed a lot more against Arsenal than against Spurs, for example, that when one of the two of them went forward the other was more disciplined about holding their position. Lets not forget they've only played together what...four times? It'll take awhile for them to get accustomed to the movement of the other but as that understanding comes I don't think this issue about defensive cover will seem as big as it does now.
Yeah, you're probably right, but it just seems such a waste. You'd have thought Wigan might have stuck him the middle with someone more defensively minded seeing as how he's so much better at committing players than he is at running round the outside of them. At least given it a go a few times.
Wilshere I'd guess, though worth remembering that Wilshere at his age probably hasn't even fully developed an on pitch personality yet (that's potentially a bit scary).
Modric is on the growing list of players I don't really "get"...he'd look like he was playing in slow motion in this United side atm.
I think we're so used to having someone like Carrick permanently screening the back four, that a partnership of Anderson and Cleverley will always seem quite a bit more open by comparison, even if they play together for years (very early days yet).
Thing is though, that's what the United sides I grew up falling in love with were all about. It was only when Keano's legs started to go that we started using the midfield as a means to be protective rather than destructive. Of course ideally it'd do both but that's difficult to achieve with the system we play, and especially so without someone as ridiculously good as Roy Keane.
Absolutely agree. I'm surprised that so many United fans feel you need a holding midfielder given our history. Until Mourinho arrived in 2005 every team in the country used two dynamic centre midfielders. Keane and Scholes; Viera and Petit. The idea of a Makelele type player who just sat there in front of the back four and never even got forward to have a shot was alien to our league. Anderson and Cleverley are showing a lot of promise as a partnership and I don't see any need to damage their growing understanding by altering the shape and dynamic of the midfield.
Having dynamic CM is good but, I don't think you can just discount the more holding type CM as some fad that was started by Mourinho and managers have just stuck to it because.
The game has evolved to where there is more emphasis on attacking play, you can't be as robust in your challenges as you track players back so you can't just leave space open and then expect someone from CM to get back and stop an attack. One of the commentators said something about (Brian?) Clough making a comment that if your 2 defenders can't go up against 2 strikers what are they doing out there in the first place ? Well and good but, the game is changing, attackers are getting quicker and there is more emphasis given to allowing the attackers do their thing, so defenders do need some measure of protection - which comes in the form of a DM.
Against good teams that can punish you for letting them get behind you - much like we were able to against Arsenal, they will punish you. So far our play has been such that we've not had to pay the price for allowing some of the attacks happen because either Cleverly or Ando weren't positioned well but, can't expect that all season. There will be games where we need to be able to make sure we aren't easily exposed through the middle.
The game has evolved to where there is more emphasis on attacking play, you can't be as robust in your challenges as you track players back so you can't just leave space open and then expect someone from CM to get back and stop an attack. One of the commentators said something about (Brian?) Clough making a comment that if your 2 defenders can't go up against 2 strikers what are they doing out there in the first place ? Well and good but, the game is changing, attackers are getting quicker and there is more emphasis given to allowing the attackers do their thing, so defenders do need some measure of protection - which comes in the form of a DM.
Against good teams that can punish you for letting them get behind you - much like we were able to against Arsenal, they will punish you. So far our play has been such that we've not had to pay the price for allowing some of the attacks happen because either Cleverly or Ando weren't positioned well but, can't expect that all season. There will be games where we need to be able to make sure we aren't easily exposed through the middle.
He's started the season well but I don't think he's really changed the situation in midfield in the long term. I don't think he offers enough to offset our need for either a destroyer or playmaker in midfield. Doesn't do either Carrick's, Fletcher's (assuming they return to form) or Anderson's (on last 4-6 months form) job better than them.
I know the defensive midfielder isn't a fad introduced by Mourinho but its not the only way to play either. Chelsea use a holding midfielder even now and United beat them three times last season in spite of that fact using a 4-4-1-1 formation. If you have two centre midfielders who are good in the transition, that is they are strong enough and fit enough to stay ahead of play, you can do without holding midfielders. Cleverley and Anderson appear to have the legs, stamina and skill to do the job and it enables the kind of play Sir Alex seems to want to elicit. Until it breaks why fix it?
A holding player doesn't guarantee that you won't lose but, it does afford a bit more defensive solidity. It's up the other team to break that down and will happen obviously.
Just my opinion but, I think while both might have the legs to play the role, they've already left some holes which we haven't been punished for yet. Against teams that are playing better, we may regret the more open nature of our game.
Some of our play is scintillating and Clev/Ando are a part of that - just have to recognize that it has it's drawbacks. Maybe once they both get more and more experience we might see less defensive gaps. Even if we stick to this team for games against the likes of Chelsea/City/Pool it can work as long as one of them stays back a bit more than normal and Rooney drops deeper to help. Clev/Ando are playing well but, 3 v 2 is a big mismatch when the opponents are almost as good.
Do you honestly trust Stuart Pearce to recognize technical talent when he sees it?
Martinez, I can't explain.
did pretty well against citeh?
Playing young defenders at fullback and young midfielders/strikers wide is just a way to bed them into the team. Fergie does it all the time (see Fletcher, O'Shea, Smalling, Welbeck a couple of years ago etc)
I assume that if martinez had to choose between a player on loan and a owned by the club, he would go for the latter.
As for Pearce he s clueless....look at the u21s, individually they had the best team in the last euro championships, yet they got eliminated in 1st round.
Short on wingers?
I still can't believe Stuart Pierce is the manager of the England U-21's.
Yush... and at times I think it's because he wants them to learn several aspects to include to how they go about things in other roles as well. No doubt that's why Anderson was being asked to hold back more in the first few years, being more of a defensive terrier for us than anything else. Rooney was restrained a bit, too, I should think... either that or he just matured of his own volition, but one gets the feeling that Fergie's got a strong hand in telling people how to go about their duties, and what sort of things to avoid doing... as evidenced by that ONE season where Rooney was essentially a spearhead (doing a fantastic job), but then the next season got off to a slow start and came back to form when he started dropping back again.
Anyway, back to Cleverley, he's had a string of great displays for us... I can't remember the last time we had a youth player come on and look as mature as he did... Yes, he had loan experience, but he rarely got about in the centre of the park for Wigan, and stepping up for United is a different thing, not everybody can hack it.
Cleverley clearly looks like he can... I was cautiously optimistic when I read the interviews stating that he wanted to take over Scholes' reins in the midfield, wondering if he really had that much in his locker. He's a different player, but he's making us tick beautifully along with Ando this season.
Who the feck knew? Fergie, that wiley beast, surely did... I didn't. All these seasons of us asking "who is it defensible to stuff into a two-man midfield with Ando", and this youngster and him are striking up a hell of a partnership... Maybe they just needed to have the big Maestro step down? *shrugs*
my concern for our midfield is still strength in depth. Anderson and Cleverley are looking very solid but they cant play 60 odd games apiece this season, and if/when injuries start creeping in i just feel that Carrick/Giggs/Fletcher isnt the most convincing array of backups.
Fletcher's due a return to form... and when he was at his best (thus far) he was imperial... And Carrick got Italian compliments due to his role as our "regista"... They're not bad players and they'll be combined in many ways to alleviate the strain on our squad... I can't wait but for now, Anderson and Cleverley making me cream my pants is doing me pretty good 
Strangely before the season started people were concerned that Cleverley who hadn't played in CM before and a yet to prove himself consistently Ando would be enough to fill the the gap when those 3 weren't available or on form.
Carrick/Fletcher/Giggs have been quality for us and it is only when we've come up against Barca have we been found truly wanting. Obviously some might say well our away form was all their fault last year but, really that was the entire team not just certain individuals.
Little more than 5 months ago it was the Carrick/Giggs combination that was easily first choice in big games. Walked us into the CL final and were picked for just about every big game for the run in...
Funny how quickly things are forgotten.
I know right, I mean it's not like we had a piss easy run to the final and then they got bitch slapped in the f.... oh wait.
Unless your a relative, the club comes first and Sir Alex picks the team..Giggs is 38 and Carrick may as well be 38.....we're doing well, or have you forgotten?
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A lot of people have been wrong, but we've not changed a winning team and the reason we've been exposed is because we've played two up top. It's all about balance. When we find that we'll be an even better team. When you have kids in the middle there's obviously a bigger risk of being exposed but we're playing well but the first time we lose or draw some people will feel vindicated and say he should have played or he should have like they were coaching the players throughout the week, inspite of where we will find ourselves.
His playing style is exactly how Barcelona play their football, making simple passes, one and two touch and finding space easily to make something happen. He always seems to look to move forward with the ball, and never back, it'd be interesting to see stats on how many times he passes it back.
His finding space (not attacking it) and positions he takes when the opposition has the ball are as important as what he does when he does get teh ball.
I like his tackles too. Nothing fancy or desperate.
He needs to calm down a bit when in front of goal..and pick his spot.
I expect him to have an exceptional season.
I like his tackles too. Nothing fancy or desperate.
He needs to calm down a bit when in front of goal..and pick his spot.
I expect him to have an exceptional season.
Yeah it's so easy to get to the final - it's not like they played well, they just showed up and other teams just stood by and let us into final. It's not like over the season we also won the league over the course of 38 games, Giggs, Carrick didn't contribute - nah, not at all.
What must SAF be thinking going into the season with just 2 CM in Cleverley and Anderson - he's lost it.
This has to be the most retarded myth yet to take hold on here, and Christ there's some competition. We had a straightforward last sixteen match because, hey, we won our group, we earned that right. Then we played Chelsea, almost certainly the fourth best team in Europe last season, and slapped them silly. Finally, we had to play the reigning champions of Europe to earn out spot in the final. Oh wait, no we didn't, they got absolutely hammered in the quarters by a team we then hammered in turn.
There's no such thing as an easy run to a European cup final, we were just a really fecking good team last season, as we have been for the past five years, and I'm terribly sorry if that messes up anyone's agenda. The notion that our first choice midfield players from the greatest era in the club's history are now not even good enough to be back-ups suggests some immense intellectual disability.
Seriously, keep in mind the level of insanity that comes out of this place at times when I say this, but I honestly think the following is the stupidest thing anyone has ever said on this forum:
Eh? That's an amazing set of back-ups! We're spoilt rotten to have that sort of quality on the bench.
I was thinking that Carrick/Giggs/Park will play in the CL group games....maybe even the cup matches.
Not too far fetched when you see what Anderson and Cleverley have done so far.
Not too far fetched when you see what Anderson and Cleverley have done so far.
Nah, we had a relatively easy run to the final, which deceived most of us into thinking we would get away with playing 2 in the center against Barcelona, and we got bitchslapped. Our away troubles last season were mostly as a result of our midfield crumbling in the face of stiff opposition.
Thanks bud, saved me a response to a painfully naive post.
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