Tom Cleverley | 2011/12 Performances

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fredthered said:
I am always a bit perplexed about sending players on loan.

Part of the success of being at United is that you receive the best training facilities, under the guidance of the best manager, with the best coachesm and allows them to develop playing alongside some of the greats in the game.

Now unless I am being totally thick here, going to other clubs deprives players of that. Would you send a racehorse to an inferior trainer if you think he's got that much potential. Of course you wouldnt. You'd make sure he had the best facilities to bring out that natural talent.


Surely that should apply to players like Cleverley. Keep them at United, give them the best training and facilities, let them learn from the best in the game, and bring them on that way. We've seen too many young players sent out on loan, and they never come back and they fade into obscurity.

Just doesnt make sense. Give them the training and the coaching and they'll make the grade.
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Yes - but there comes a time when a player has all the ingredients but needs to be tested out there in the real world. They should make it with glowing reports under the right management/team ethos.

Obviously if they're a Scholes for instance and they go to a long-ball team type manager they may struggle to actually see the ball. But this is why SAF chooses carefully where to send his players to (especially post-Rossi going to Glen Roeder's Newcastle)

Cleverley wen to Martinez. Wigan isn't a great team but Martinez is a good football coach who believes in playing football. If he passes that test then we bring him back to United - as with Wellbeck.

Macheda and Diouf didn't pass their respective tests which says something.
 
rotherham_red said:
The difference between Scholes and Cleverley was that there were no doubts over Scholsey's immense talent, only his physical attributes. Many reserve watchers of the 90s had been raving over Scholes. Cleverley on the other hand, was plodding along at LB and never looked nothing more than tidy in midfield, I'll give you an example: When Utd played in that Malaysian Youth tournament a few years ago, the undoubted stars of a relatively ordinary utd team were Michael Barnes and Febian Brandy. In midfield were Sam Hewson and Danny Drinkwater both of whom haven't exactly set the world alight. Cleverley was a pretty regulation-level LB, meanwhile...

Even at reserve level, he wasn't anything more than tidy. Coincidentally, David Jones, who Wigan have signed, I'm assuming as Clev's replacement, looked like the bastard child of Scholes when he was captaining the Reserves. If Jones had grown significantly, I reckon he would still be at the club, I reckon.

Cleverley hasnt shown anything out of the ordinary throughout his career, outside of his excellent tactical movment, I have no doubts he'll make it but he wont be a superstar or a mainstay, if there is one player you could compare him to, its Gary Neville. Not the most talented but is getting to where he is through sheer dedication and sacrifice...
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As I said there are many examples of teenagers who were tremendous who turned out to be nothing much and vice versa. You addressed the example about Scholesy but not about Hernandez.

Yes Cleverley was an ordinary full back but he's not a full back anymore. Both he and his game have grown and developed and he has shown both the heart and the nous to be a top, top player.

I remember reading about how Keano was overlooked as a kid and wrote letters to every top division club in the country asking for a trial getting no answers from any of them but Forest. Sometimes hardwork, determination and a willingness to take advice and learn can take you a long way.

Cleverley has shown he has the desire to be a footballer and succeeded where other more naturally gifted footballers have not. More importantly even he's shown he has the ability to see the holes in his game, the intelligence to learn how to compensate for them and the work ethic to practice enough to implement those lessons.

The best part of that article I posted from the Telegraph was not the stuff about his one touch passing but the line where Yaya Toure is quoted as turning around to him and saying leave me alone. He has a will to succeed that, to my eyes, is almost as strong as David Beckham's and the growth Cleverley has undergone as a player can only be compared to the startling transformation between Becks 95/96 and 96/97.

I see the spirit of Alex Ferguson in that lad and thats why I'm so confident he'll succeed.
 
For me, I'd be worried with him starting the season as our starter, or relied on heavily only because last season for Wigan he wasn't THAT impressive. If he wasn't a United player, I wouldn't of paid much heed.

He's come here, had some great games in preseason, came on and did a number against City, but has yet to play that way 10 games in a row. He certainly has the brains and technique, but based on last season's full season, I think bringing him in slowly is still the best for him.
 
The hype around Cleverley is so frustrating because it is largely unwarranted. Players like Welbeck and Smalling have more talent, but they are not receiving the same amount of attention, and that is unfair. They have also proven themselves on many more occasions than one half of a Community Shield match, and are both younger than Cleverley.
 
johnmufc said:
The hype around Cleverley is so frustrating because it is largely unwarranted. Players like Welbeck and Smalling have more talent, but they are not receiving the same amount of attention, and that is unfair. They have also proven themselves on many more occasions than one half of a Community Shield match, and are both younger than Cleverley.
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Smalling is a defender so he was never going to get that much hype. And I reckon us being so well stocked up front and not so much in central midfield makes a difference with regards to Welbeck.

As regards to being proven, Welbeck is nowhere near Smalling who has just come off a brilliant first season.
 
davisjw said:
For me, I'd be worried with him starting the season as our starter, or relied on heavily only because last season for Wigan he wasn't THAT impressive. If he wasn't a United player, I wouldn't of paid much heed.

He's come here, had some great games in preseason, came on and did a number against City, but has yet to play that way 10 games in a row. He certainly has the brains and technique, but based on last season's full season, I think bringing him in slowly is still the best for him.
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Yeah because playing in a Wigan team and a Man United team is the same? Look at the players he will playing around here and look at the quality Wigan have.
 
RedRover said:
Unfortunately a midfield containing two of those looked unremarkable in the under 21's this summer. International level is a big step.

I agree that the likes of Cleverly should be in and around the squad, and personally I would take mostly young lads with a core of 8-10 senior players to help them bed in.
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Cleverley was hardly given a chance to play in midfield whereas Wilshere didn't even went for the under 21s...
 
RDCR07 said:
Yeah because playing in a Wigan team and a Man United team is the same? Look at the players he will playing around here and look at the quality Wigan have.
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The expectation is also much much greater when playing for United than a side like Wigan, especially if you were to rely on the lad filling the boots of a seasoned pro.

Players obviously look better in a better team - hence players moving on in the past and looking average - but playing in United's side hasn't made a lot of ex-united players look that much better for it to be significant.
 
cj4_elmo said:
Cleverley was hardly given a chance to play in midfield whereas Wilshere didn't even went for the under 21s...
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I know Wilshere didn't go. Thats why I said two of the three named played.

He got a good run out in the first game, and if I remember rightly started the second.

I may be getting my games mixed up, but he did play a fair bit and didn't really stand out.

That said, neither did most of the England side.
 
It's typical the media (and our) overreaction regarding his performance.It's unexpected when a young english player displays a level of maturity and technique in his game not common with many players of the same age.
 
RedRover said:
I know Wilshere didn't go. Thats why I said two of the three named played.

He got a good run out in the first game, and if I remember rightly started the second.

I may be getting my games mixed up, but he did play a fair bit and didn't really stand out.

That said, neither did most of the England side.
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Do you remember him playing in the position he played for us in against Barcelona, Marseille or Man City in any of those games cos I don't and I was sure as heck crying out for him to be given a chance for him to do so in the Euro U21s thread? In fact the only time I remember England looking half decent in the tournament was when Pearce played Cleverley in the advanced midfield role behind the striker. In the final game we had our best passage of play with him there scored, Cleverley got subbed, we lost control of the ball and ended up losing 2-1...
 
johnmufc said:
The hype around Cleverley is so frustrating because it is largely unwarranted. Players like Welbeck and Smalling have more talent, but they are not receiving the same amount of attention, and that is unfair. They have also proven themselves on many more occasions than one half of a Community Shield match, and are both younger than Cleverley.
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You're actually annoyed about this? Wise up
 
#07 said:
Do you remember him playing in the position he played for us in against Barcelona, Marseille or Man City in any of those games cos I don't and I was sure as heck crying out for him to be given a chance for him to do so in the Euro U21s thread? In fact the only time I remember England looking half decent in the tournament was when Pearce played Cleverley in the advanced midfield role behind the striker. In the final game we had our best passage of play with him there scored, Cleverley got subbed, we lost control of the ball and ended up losing 2-1...
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He did get more game time in a position he'd done alright in for Wigan, seemingly out wide and didn't do a lot.

He may have had his moments and that highlights for me that as with most young players he'll be excellent one game and maybe not the next, and thats fine for now.

Someone else suggested he's ready to step up to the England side now and I was just pointing out that he's probably some way away from that at the moment.
 
I'm suprised with how well he's taken to being played in a two-man-midfield as a CM. Mature, defensively eager, if not perfect positionally, and a lot of drive, determination and constructive passing. Great one-touch-football from him as well.

I guess I should've seen that coming, with all the talk about his tactical awareness and his great football brain, but this kid could pull up some threes this season. He probably have to if we don't sign another CM, as is looking more and more unlikely by the day.
 
cina said:
Is this really all being posted after one semi important game?
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That's what the media do best, notably recently did it with Bale and now starting with Cleverly - but he deserves some sort of mention but hope all this doesn't get him carried away.
 
cina said:
Is this really all being posted after one semi important game?
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It tends to happen from time to time. After Ronaldo destroyed Gary Neville in a pre-season friendly, for example, people in the know had similarly excited reactions.
 
I'm not worried about all the hype that has suddenly sprung up about him. By all accounts he seems to be a very grounded individual and he is at the right club with the right manager to keep him focused. He was seriously impressive on Sunday and I'm really looking forward to seeing him this season.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Smalling is a defender so he was never going to get that much hype. And I reckon us being so well stocked up front and not so much in central midfield makes a difference with regards to Welbeck.

As regards to being proven, Welbeck is nowhere near Smalling who has just come off a brilliant first season.
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Very much true.
 
For the record: If Sneijder doesn't come, I reserve my right to claim that Cleverley is, undisputably, the worlds greatest allround-midfielder and that he will be BPITW inside two seasons.*

*Should the opposite occur, and Sneijder do actually sign, I will be in here telling people not to believe the hype regarding our Tom.
 
marjen said:
For the record: If Sneijder doesn't come, I reserve my right to claim that Cleverley is, undisputably, the worlds greatest allround-midfielder and that he will be BPITW inside two seasons.*

*Should the opposite occur, and Sneijder do actually sign, I will be in here telling people not to believe the hype regarding our Tom.
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He has a part to play regardless of whether Sneijder comes or not.
 
londonredmaniac said:
He has a part to play regardless of whether Sneijder comes or not.
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Yeah, probably. But look, there's no two ways about this, you have to be a smug cnut if you're to reap the benefits at a later stage.

I don't think Sneijder will sign if I'm perfectly honest, so in order to gain somewhat gay internet-credz I need to get the claim in early. Tom's gonna be a star, for sure!
 
I would worry that the signing of someone like Sneijder would limit his opportunities to play - not sure what that would do for his development at this stage as he has played pretty regularly last couple of seasons.
 
marjen said:
Yeah, probably. But look, there's no two ways about this, you have to be a smug cnut if you're to reap the benefits at a later stage.

I don't think Sneijder will sign if I'm perfectly honest, so in order to gain somewhat gay internet-credz I need to get the claim in early. Tom's gonna be a star, for sure!
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:lol:
 
Rood said:
I would worry that the signing of someone like Sneijder would limit his opportunities to play - not sure what that would do for his development at this stage as he has played pretty regularly last couple of seasons.
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Place for him in this side I reckon.

I'd have him on the bench anyway.
 
londonredmaniac said:
Place for him in this side I reckon.

I'd have him on the bench anyway.
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in a fully fit squad, Im not sure he would even make the bench if we signed another midfielder - I am assuming the following being ahead of him in pecking order:
Sneijder
Giggs
Carrick
Fletcher
Anderson

With injuries he would obviously get games - all in all we are probably looking at the same amount of game time as someone like Gibson last year.
 
9 league and Champions league starts combined in each of the last two years, I think Cleverley's probably aiming a little higher than that.
 
Brwned said:
9 league and Champions league starts combined in each of the last two years, I think Cleverley's probably aiming a little higher than that.
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Exactly and he looks ready for more than that as well.
 
Brwned said:
9 league and Champions league starts combined in each of the last two years, I think Cleverley's probably aiming a little higher than that.
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I'm sure he is and I think he will play more than that, but 14 starts and 6 sub appearances in all comps last season for Manchester United isn't something to be sniffed at.
 
Scrumpet said:
I'm sure he is and I think he will play more than that, but 14 starts and 6 sub appearances in all comps last season for Manchester United isn't something to be sniffed at.
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This is true.

#07 said:
Maybe thats cos those two cant really attack and defend. Gerrard is clearly a better tackler than Lampard but also less disciplined tactically. Their partnership was always doomed to fail Ince & Keane they were not.

If you have two world class box to box midfielders it wont harm you going 442. However, England haven't had two box to box midfielders for sometime. 2 attacking midfielders does not a Robbo make. Not saying Cleverley is the new Robson but I'd love him to turn out to be.
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I don't know, I don't think you necessarily need specific holding players to play there but I don't think you can have two box-to-box players now. A huge amount of time is spent on tactics in international football due to how little time they spend with their own players, that theoretical work is becoming as important as practical work. Ancelotti said something previously about this. And having two box-to-box players leaves gaps defensively in an area you really don't want to take risks in, which is why there's so many looking to shore it up with not just one but two players.

Now, you don't need to have two or even one purely specialised defensive player, and in a few years if Germany are successful with the way they're currently setting up with Kroos and Schweinsteiger, both far from traditional holding players, then it could start a trend (as we know how tactical trends often follow major tournaments). Neither are box-to-box players either, though, despite both being capable of being hugely influential in attacking areas they do hold their position.

How many international teams have been successful with two genuine box-to-box players over the years anyway?
 
How many international sides have actually had two genuine box-to-box midfielders? They're quite a rare commodity.
 
Nowadays yeah but I thought they were fairly common over the previous two decades in teams like England, Germany etc.?
 
Brwned said:
Nowadays yeah but I thought they were fairly common over the previous two decades in teams like England, Germany etc.?
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More common in club sides and pretty much until the emergence of the trequartista they were a feature of all successful sides from the 1977 Liverpool side that won the European Cup to the Albertini-Desilly axis that pressed Barca to death in 1994.

Box-to-box doesn't mean running around like a headless chicken it means being equally adept at attacking and defending and pretty much until coaches became indulgent of midfielders who didnt want to defend e.g. Zidane they were the bread and butter of all sides.

Cleverley is in this mould as is Wilshere and provided they are tactically disciplined and don't just charge around like idiots I don't see any point whatsoever in a water carrier player behind them and I think they are the future of England's midfield.
 
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