Toby Collyer

NewGlory said:
"we always get one"???? Really?

It's only been true last two years. Mainoo last season and Garnacho the season before (even that is a stretch). Before that there were quite a few years/seasons with no young players breaking through in any meaningful way.
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Well - depends how you consider breaking through - but we are at least very close to getting one every season - but it depends how much they need to play for us to be considered. But yes - on average we get 1 every season

The ones I recall that at least for a short period of time were regulars are

Mainoo 23/24
Garnacho 22/23
Henderson 20/21
Greenwood 19/20
Pereira 18/19
McTominay 17/18
Lingard/Rashford 15/16
 
lysglimt said:
Well - depends how you consider breaking through - but we are at least very close to getting one every season - but it depends how much they need to play for us to be considered. But yes - on average we get 1 every season

The ones I recall that at least for a short period of time were regulars are

Mainoo 23/24
Garnacho 22/23
Henderson 20/21
Greenwood 19/20
Pereira 18/19
McTominay 17/18
Lingard/Rashford 15/16
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I understand what you are saying. Where we disagree is:
1. I don't consider Henderson because he never did anything except for random cameos and complaining non stop. So a hard "no" for me
2. Greenwood sure but then we lost him so, you can understand how that is a wash
3. Pereira never became a starter
4. McTominay I understand but for me, he was never good enough and is only kept around because he is a nice lad
5. Lingard/Rashford is what I also think aside from Garna and Mainoo, because these four were the only ones that ended up being reliable starters (Lingard a bit debatable, but Rashy for sure)
 
NewGlory said:
I understand what you are saying. Where we disagree is:
1. I don't consider Henderson because he never did anything except for random cameos and complaining non stop. So a hard "no" for me
2. Greenwood sure but then we lost him so, you can understand how that is a wash
3. Pereira never became a starter
4. McTominay I understand but for me, he was never good enough and is only kept around because he is a nice lad
5. Lingard/Rashford is what I also think aside from Garna and Mainoo, because these four were the only ones that ended up being reliable starters (Lingard a bit debatable, but Rashy for sure)
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Sorry but your reasoning is just weird

So basically - unless a player is world class and stays with United for 10 seasons he is not considered making a breakthrough ? With that reasoning you can exclude Mainoo and Garnacho because we still don't know if they will be here in 3 years.

You exclude McTominay with 250 matches for United and 50 matches for Scotland - that can't be taken seriously. You can argue that he isn't good enough for a top-side but no you can't exclude him from having made a breakthrough. But you accept Lingard who played less games and only 1 season played 30 league games or more? McTominay played 30 or more in 3 of the last 4 games.

You exclude Mason Greenwood who at the age of 22 was a regular with 130 games and scored 35 goals - just because he isn't here anymore ? That we now will sell him is completely besides the point.

Pereira was a regular for one season - but agreed that he never made a huge impact.

But I think you are the only person in the whole world who would claim that Greenwood and McTominay never made a breakthrough at United
 
lysglimt said:
Sorry but your reasoning is just weird

So basically - unless a player is world class and stays with United for 10 seasons he is not considered making a breakthrough ? With that reasoning you can exclude Mainoo and Garnacho because we still don't know if they will be here in 3 years.

You exclude McTominay with 250 matches for United and 50 matches for Scotland - that can't be taken seriously. You can argue that he isn't good enough for a top-side but no you can't exclude him from having made a breakthrough. But you accept Lingard who played less games and only 1 season played 30 league games or more? McTominay played 30 or more in 3 of the last 4 games.

You exclude Mason Greenwood who at the age of 22 was a regular with 130 games and scored 35 goals - just because he isn't here anymore ? That we now will sell him is completely besides the point.

Pereira was a regular for one season - but agreed that he never made a huge impact.

But I think you are the only person in the whole world who would claim that Greenwood and McTominay never made a breakthrough at United
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Rashford is not world class, never was, never will be but he counts. Because he is a starter.

I am not going to count cameos from players that never made starting eleven on a regular basis. Lots if youngsters feature in senior team, that doesn't mean they break into the senior team, unless you are a starter for at least one season - you havent made it. Mejbri played more games than Henderson

McTominay did play enough, and I said I can see why he counts, I just don't feel United has benefited from him because he was never good enough and was playing for wrong reasons. Not the same as saying he didnt break through
 
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NewGlory said:
"we always get one"???? Really?

It's only been true last two years. Mainoo last season and Garnacho the season before (even that is a stretch). Before that there were quite a few years/seasons with no young players breaking through in any meaningful way.
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2014 Januzaj
2015 McNair
2016 Rashford
2017 Mctominay
2018 ?
2019 Pereira
2020 Greenwood
2021 Henderson
2022 Elanga
2023 Garnacho
2024 Mainoo

Varying degrees of success but certainly contributed.
 
Foolsgold21 said:
2014 Januzaj
2015 McNair
2016 Rashford
2017 Mctominay
2018 ?
2019 Pereira
2020 Greenwood
2021 Henderson
2022 Elanga
2023 Garnacho
2024 Mainoo

Varying degrees of success but certainly contributed.
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I vehemently disagree with Henderson and Elanga on this list, they had some cameos at best and never became starters for the senior team. I think Pereira is also highly arguable, but Elanga and Henderson had no impact and never made it.
 
NewGlory said:
I vehemently disagree with Henderson and Elanga on this list, they had some cameos at best and never became starters for the senior team. I think Pereira is also highly arguable, but Elanga and Henderson had no impact and never made it.
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Here’s me thinking McNair was the weak link..

Bit harsh on Elanga for me, he was the one positive that season and scored what was probably the highlight of the season against Atleti.

My memory of one coming through each year is maybe a bit excessive, but it feels close to that in my head!
 
NewGlory said:
I vehemently disagree with Henderson and Elanga on this list, they had some cameos at best and never became starters for the senior team. I think Pereira is also highly arguable, but Elanga and Henderson had no impact and never made it.
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Henderson was first choice for the back end of the season he broke though and played (somewhat) regularly throughout that season as a second choice goalkeeper at 23/24 years old, which is still young for a keeper, especially at United. Bare in mind actually how many goalkeepers have made it through our academy from the age of 14/15 and played somewhat regularly for our first team.

Elanga was one of the very few shining lights in the 21/22 season (when he broke through), and overall performed well in his first season. He then went on to play over 50 times for the first team. How many players who joined the club at the age he did, which I think is 11 or 12, have gone on to play over 50 times for the first team.

To some extent I do understand your logic, however when you put things into perspective the players listed by @Foolsgold21 are all players who broke through to the first team and are all very successful products of our academy.
 
NewGlory said:
I vehemently disagree with Henderson and Elanga on this list, they had some cameos at best and never became starters for the senior team. I think Pereira is also highly arguable, but Elanga and Henderson had no impact and never made it.
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Harsh.

Elanga had some good moments and while he was never good enough, to say he never made it is stupid. He played over 50 games for Utd.

Henderson spent the second half of his first season as no.1 and performed pretty well, only injury and illness stopped him from starting the following season as no.1.
 
Connor C said:
Henderson was first choice for the back end of the season he broke though and played (somewhat) regularly throughout that season as a second choice goalkeeper at 23/24 years old, which is still young for a keeper, especially at United. Bare in mind actually how many goalkeepers have made it through our academy from the age of 14/15 and played somewhat regularly for our first team.

Elanga was one of the very few shining lights in the 21/22 season (when he broke through), and overall performed well in his first season. He then went on to play over 50 times for the first team. How many players who joined the club at the age he did, which I think is 11 or 12, have gone on to play over 50 times for the first team.

To some extent I do understand your logic, however when you put things into perspective the players listed by @Foolsgold21 are all players who broke through to the first team and are all very successful products of our academy.
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My main point is - our academy has not always been as great as it seems to be lately, and maybe Nick Cox had something to do with the seeming improvement. Erik may also deserve some credit for integrating talented youngsters better than maybe Ole was doing it. Possibly some other people deserve credit, as well. Just a thought
 
Toby does look fitter than most of our youngsters featured. Maybe the extended training with the 1st team on the 2nd half of last season helped.
 
Prodigal7 said:
Neither did Rodri and he’s arguably the best DM in the world. If works different more that position
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Rodri was 19 when he started making first team appearances for Villareal.

It is also easier to develop as a young player in La Liga. Most games are not as intense as the PL and allows players more freedom to develop.

The fact that Collyer is an entire year older than Rodri was when he started making first team appearances is also a big thing. 1 full year is a huge amount of development time.

Collyer needs to go on loan ASAP. When this season is he going to get minutes in midfield? We already have Mainoo, Casemiro, McTominay, Mount, Eriksen, Hannibal, Amrabat (may come back), the club is also linked to Ugarte, and will likely sign a different midfielder if not him.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Rodri was 19 when he started making first team appearances for Villareal.

It is also easier to develop as a young player in La Liga. Most games are not as intense as the PL and allows players more freedom to develop.

The fact that Collyer is an entire year older than Rodri was when he started making first team appearances is also a big thing. 1 full year is a huge amount of development time.

Collyer needs to go on loan ASAP. When this season is he going to get minutes in midfield? We already have Mainoo, Casemiro, McTominay, Mount, Eriksen, Hannibal, Amrabat (may come back), the club is also linked to Ugarte, and will likely sign a different midfielder if not him.
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Hannibal, Eriksen and Casemiro are most likely to leave (unless INEOS are incompetent)

McT is not a DMF and neither is Mount.

Mainoo can play #6 but his best position is so clearly #8 that it would be criminal to ruin his progress just because we lack a #6

So really, for #6 we are only aiming at Ugarte. It is highly unlikely we will keep Amrabat if we buy Ugarte and almost certain that we will not both buy Ugarte, keep Amrabat, and not loan Collyer

Most likely scenarios are:

1. We buy Ugarte and start introducing Collyer. Which is very reasonable because with the number of games we play in all competitions, and expected injuries we 100% need two players for each position, esp when one of them is a young player breaking into the senior team

2. We may do the same with Amrabat + Collyer if we end up short on cash

3. We may do Ugarte + Amrabat and loan Collyer if Collyer is not ready, but I doubt we will, because it is too expensive

4. We may also end up not bringing anybody in and trying to survive with Mainoo, Collyer, McT, but it would be a recipe for repeating last year's disaster
 
NewGlory said:
Hannibal, Eriksen and Casemiro are most likely to leave (unless INEOS are incompetent)

McT is not a DMF and neither is Mount.

Mainoo can play #6 but his best position is so clearly #8 that it would be criminal to ruin his progress just because we lack a #6

So really, for #6 we are only aiming at Ugarte. It is highly unlikely we will keep Amrabat if we buy Ugarte and almost certain that we will not both buy Ugarte, keep Amrabat, and not loan Collyer

Most likely scenarios are:

1. We buy Ugarte and start introducing Collyer. Which is very reasonable because with the number of games we play in all competitions, and expected injuries we 100% need two players for each position, esp when one of them is a young player breaking into the senior team

2. We may do the same with Amrabat + Collyer if we end up short on cash

3. We may do Ugarte + Amrabat and loan Collyer if Collyer is not ready, but I doubt we will, because it is too expensive

4. We may also end up not bringing anybody in and trying to survive with Mainoo, Collyer, McT, but it would be a recipe for repeating last year's disaster
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Don't rule out Casemiro staying if he doesn't fancy Saudi
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
Don't rule out Casemiro staying if he doesn't fancy Saudi
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By all means it sounds like he's happy to go to Saudi, but they might not necessarily fancy him at the moment.

They're trying to sign younger players, although it sounds like the majority of them have said no thanks. I still feel like they'll come back for Case, but might be later in the window which complicates things for us until then
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Rodri was 19 when he started making first team appearances for Villareal.

It is also easier to develop as a young player in La Liga. Most games are not as intense as the PL and allows players more freedom to develop.

The fact that Collyer is an entire year older than Rodri was when he started making first team appearances is also a big thing. 1 full year is a huge amount of development time.

Collyer needs to go on loan ASAP. When this season is he going to get minutes in midfield? We already have Mainoo, Casemiro, McTominay, Mount, Eriksen, Hannibal, Amrabat (may come back), the club is also linked to Ugarte, and will likely sign a different midfielder if not him.
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Loan deals rarely work for developing youngsters, when was the last time we sent a youngster on loan and came back to be an important part of the team? Most loans are failures with players barely featuring.

The team that loans them get an inexperienced youngster who isn't top tier, otherwise we would have kept him, so they have not much motivation to play them. They'll get no benefit from improving a player that's going to cost some mistakes only to lose him by the end of the season with no reward. Unless the team is really short on quality or numbers those loaned players barely feature.

If a player is already 20 and cant even be part of the squad he most likely won't make it here. That doesn't mean he can't make it in another team, but the smart call would be to sell them with a buy back clause if we think they have potential. That way the buying team has something to gain from developing the player, they get to keep him or they might lose him but for a fee, on our side it's a win-win, of the player doesn't work out then we already got a fee for selling him and if he does we can always take him back.

Rather we end up loaning players that we know won't make it until their contracts expire and we lose them for free. Players like Fish, Hugill, Shoretire, McNeil we all know won't make it here still we rather keep loaning them than selling them even for a small fee.

It's known most youngsters won't make it at top level and only a special few will end up being part of the team. But those special can be seen from distance, players like Garnacho and Mainoo.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Defend him all you want, 100% he doesn't make it here.
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You can stick to your guns. I'm nor going to say if he will or will not make. Unlike you, I'm aware enough to know I don't have a fecking clue how his career will pan out. I hope that he has a good career whether it's at Man utd or in league 2.
 
GlazersHater said:
Loan deals rarely work for developing youngsters, when was the last time we sent a youngster on loan and came back to be an important part of the team? Most loans are failures with players barely featuring.

The team that loans them get an inexperienced youngster who isn't top tier, otherwise we would have kept him, so they have not much motivation to play them. They'll get no benefit from improving a player that's going to cost some mistakes only to lose him by the end of the season with no reward. Unless the team is really short on quality or numbers those loaned players barely feature.

If a player is already 20 and cant even be part of the squad he most likely won't make it here. That doesn't mean he can't make it in another team, but the smart call would be to sell them with a buy back clause if we think they have potential. That way the buying team has something to gain from developing the player, they get to keep him or they might lose him but for a fee, on our side it's a win-win, of the player doesn't work out then we already got a fee for selling him and if he does we can always take him back.

Rather we end up loaning players that we know won't make it until their contracts expire and we lose them for free. Players like Fish, Hugill, Shoretire, McNeil we all know won't make it here still we rather keep loaning them than selling them even for a small fee.

It's known most youngsters won't make it at top level and only a special few will end up being part of the team. But those special can be seen from distance, players like Garnacho and Mainoo.
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Welbeck to Sunderland was probably the most successful. Henderson had a few good loans, think it was Sheffield United where he shone? Players that didn't really turn into long term successes for us though.

Amad's loan at Sunderland was very good, and he might well still turn into a good player for us. His loans before that though seemed like that set him back more than anything.
 
Crimson King said:
Welbeck to Sunderland was probably the most successful. Henderson had a few good loans, think it was Sheffield United where he shone? Players that didn't really turn into long term successes for us though.

Amad's loan at Sunderland was very good, and he might well still turn into a good player for us. His loans before that though seemed like that set him back more than anything.
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Welbeck was a part of the team but never really solidified his place here hence he end up leaving. Henderson's loans were good for him but still never good enough for us to be a starter. Amad I agree 100% with you, Sunderland loan helped him but the one with Rangers was only lost time. I still think he would have been better staying here considering in that time players like Elanga and Garnacho got their fair share of minutes and at that point he was above them in the pecking order.
 
Loans have been around since the early 1970's but United really only started using 'properly' in the mid-late 1990's. I agree loans rarely work for so many reasons.

The only ones I can think of are John O'Shea, Welbeck and Jonny Evans both at Sunderland and Jesse Lingard.

O'Shea made around 400 appearances, Welbeck went on to make 150, and Evans and Lingard over 200 for United in their careers.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
Loans have been around since the early 1970's but United really only started using 'properly' in the mid-late 1990's. I agree loans rarely work for so many reasons.

The only ones I can think of are John O'Shea, Welbeck and Jonny Evans both at Sunderland and Jesse Lingard.

O'Shea made around 400 appearances, Welbeck went on to make 150, and Evans and Lingard over 200 for United in their careers.
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Beckham at PNE
 
Vitek at Acc Stanley was a huge success for him. Played super well against Rosenberg and still only 20. I read a higher loan his season could be the makings of him. Huge kid at 6ft 4 with big wing span. Some 2024 highlights and comments are impressive.



This was February 2024:
Manchester United youngster Radek Vitek has been a hit so far at Accrington Stanley. The Czech goalkeeper is said to be making a big impression at the lower league club. Per The Mail, Accrington staff have been very surprised by the 20-year-old's composure. The youngster wants to make it at United and believes that impressive loans will do him no harm.
 
Demaw said:
Vitek at Acc Stanley was a huge success for him. Played super well against Rosenberg and still only 20. I read a higher loan his season could be the makings of him. Huge kid at 6ft 4 with big wing span. Some 2024 highlights and comments are impressive.



This was February 2024:
Manchester United youngster Radek Vitek has been a hit so far at Accrington Stanley. The Czech goalkeeper is said to be making a big impression at the lower league club. Per The Mail, Accrington staff have been very surprised by the 20-year-old's composure. The youngster wants to make it at United and believes that impressive loans will do him no harm.
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He seems to be a good candidate to be the break out academy star this year. It probably will be good for him to go on loan again and get some more games under his belt.
 
His second name is Albertine - I don't know about Belgian names in general - but that's probably not the most masculine name I have heard :)
 
pascell said:
Beckham at PNE
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Only there a few weeks so not really comparing like for like. All the others had over a season away. I think the point a few people are making is that Collyer may benefit from a loan spell to play first team football but for a whole season. I don't think anyone is suggesting a few weeks.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
Loans have been around since the early 1970's but United really only started using 'properly' in the mid-late 1990's. I agree loans rarely work for so many reasons.

The only ones I can think of are John O'Shea, Welbeck and Jonny Evans both at Sunderland and Jesse Lingard.

O'Shea made around 400 appearances, Welbeck went on to make 150, and Evans and Lingard over 200 for United in their careers.
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Kovar at Sparta Prague was a positive loan.

I think we need a "loan manager" who knows the personality of the player (Is the player ready for a loan?) and knows the situation of the clubs (For example "How safe is their coach in his job?" or "How is their success with loan players in the past?").
 
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