Toby Collyer

Red the Bear said:
What's his potential from those who have seen him play?
Is he highly rated?
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I’m not sure I’d call him highly rated but more he suits the kind of sitting midfielder the manager likes. His composed, two footed and has a good passing range. Similar to Carrick at West Ham. England youth captain and was highly rated when we got him but injuries had him out for long periods.
 
Won't be shocked to see him make the tour squad. Seems the kind that, stylistically speaking at least, would be a good fit next to Kobbie.

For all of EtH's faults, of which, there are a fair few, he has handled the first team pathway for those he sees as being able to make an impact fairly well. You get the feeling Forson would have more of a part to play next year but he appears to have elected to move on.
 
Borninthe80ts said:
I’m not sure I’d call him highly rated but more he suits the kind of sitting midfielder the manager likes. His composed, two footed and has a good passing range. Similar to Carrick at West Ham. England youth captain and was highly rated when we got him but injuries had him out for long periods.
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It would be a more than welcome addition to the squad If he gets anywhere near Carrick's quality.
 
He’s an enigma. From what I’ve heard, he doesn’t seem to have done a great deal at youth level for us and a lot of people who have watched him seem to think he’s nothing special. Ogunneye seems similar - Kamason seems the higher rated RB but this guy is often on the bench.
 
Red the Bear said:
It would be a more than welcome addition to the squad If he gets anywhere near Carrick's quality.
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Just to confirm I used Carrick to illustrate his playing style rather than level I expect him to reach. No expectations or hype. Your right though if he does progress, calm character.
 
Borninthe80ts said:
I’m not sure I’d call him highly rated but more he suits the kind of sitting midfielder the manager likes. His composed, two footed and has a good passing range. Similar to Carrick at West Ham. England youth captain and was highly rated when we got him but injuries had him out for long periods.
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Sounds like Huddlestone.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
He’s an enigma. From what I’ve heard, he doesn’t seem to have done a great deal at youth level for us and a lot of people who have watched him seem to think he’s nothing special. Ogunneye seems similar - Kamason seems the higher rated RB but this guy is often on the bench.
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??? This guy is a midfielder. Not sure why the other two are mentioned where they play completely different positions.
 
elmo said:
Sounds like Huddlestone.
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That would be a reasonable comparison, but Huddlestone was more robustly physical although at times elegant? I thought Tom was the new Hoddle but for injuries. Similar but different.
 
saik said:
??? This guy is a midfielder. Not sure why the other two are mentioned where they play completely different positions.
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I bring up Ogunneye because he's, to my knowledge, not rated particularly highly among regular academy/reserves viewers but regularly got on the first team bench. Kamason is the right back that most seem to rate higher but hasn't had a sniff. Collyer is also not rated too highly by the fans who see him a lot, yet gets on the first team bench over those more admired like Finlay McAllister, Jack Fletcher etc. Collyer is older though so maybe is felt to be more physically developed.
 
Borninthe80ts said:
I’m not sure I’d call him highly rated but more he suits the kind of sitting midfielder the manager likes. His composed, two footed and has a good passing range. Similar to Carrick at West Ham. England youth captain and was highly rated when we got him but injuries had him out for long periods.
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I guess one thing to remember is that fans didn't seem to rate Carrick that highly, it was his coaches and teammates that saw his worth.

Obviously we eventually saw his quality at United, but when we paid £18m to Spurs for him a lot of fans were up in arms and oppo fans were laughing at us.

He was worth every penny. If Collyer turns out to be half the player Carrick was then he'd be a good squad option, at the very least.
 
Crimson King said:
I guess one thing to remember is that fans didn't seem to rate Carrick that highly, it was his coaches and teammates that saw his worth.

Obviously we eventually saw his quality at United, but when we paid £18m to Spurs for him a lot of fans were up in arms and oppo fans were laughing at us.

He was worth every penny. If Collyer turns out to be half the player Carrick was then he'd be a good squad option, at the very least.
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Anyone that has a clue about football would have known that Carrick was quality by watching him at the Hammers.
Those same fans probably rated Antony before he came to Utd.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
I bring up Ogunneye because he's, to my knowledge, not rated particularly highly among regular academy/reserves viewers but regularly got on the first team bench. Kamason is the right back that most seem to rate higher but hasn't had a sniff. Collyer is also not rated too highly by the fans who see him a lot, yet gets on the first team bench over those more admired like Finlay McAllister, Jack Fletcher etc. Collyer is older though so maybe is felt to be more physically developed.
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I see your point now. The bolded is probably what it is. Some players are further along in their development so made the bench to make up numbers. Also, we don't exactly know what goes on behind the scenes in terms of what they decide for each player. They might have felt that those guys you mentioned needed to continue playing for the u-18s for the time being.
 
saik said:
I see your point now. The bolded is probably what it is. Some players are further along in their development so made the bench to make up numbers. Also, we don't exactly know what goes on behind the scenes in terms of what they decide for each player. They might have felt that those guys you mentioned needed to continue playing for the u-18s for the time being.
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Yes, and to be fair, success at youth level doesn't always translate for success or trajectory of development at senior level. I remember several players who didn't seem particularly highly rated compared to their counterparts at youth level who went on to being successes in the first team. O'Shea, McTominay and, to some extent, Rashford fit into this category. There's countless others who fit into the opposite category - highly rated in the reserves/academy but flop at or don't make it to first team level.

As others have said, if Collyer is a Carrick type, he won't necessarily catch the eye as much. I remember thinking Carrick was really overrated at West Ham but he grew into a cracking player and was one of those types that made everything tick and everyone else better. Hopefully he goes onto having a good career. I personally reckon we need two pure DMs this Summer if Casemiro and Amrabat won't be around. Having Collyer be the second choice to a new signing would save on funds and allow us to invest elsewhere.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
Yes, and to be fair, success at youth level doesn't always translate for success or trajectory of development at senior level. I remember several players who didn't seem particularly highly rated compared to their counterparts at youth level who went on to being successes in the first team. O'Shea, McTominay and, to some extent, Rashford fit into this category. There's countless others who fit into the opposite category - highly rated in the reserves/academy but flop at or don't make it to first team level.

As others have said, if Collyer is a Carrick type, he won't necessarily catch the eye as much. I remember thinking Carrick was really overrated at West Ham but he grew into a cracking player and was one of those types that made everything tick and everyone else better. Hopefully he goes onto having a good career. I personally reckon we need two pure DMs this Summer if Casemiro and Amrabat won't be around. Having Collyer be the second choice to a new signing would save on funds and allow us to invest elsewhere.
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Also, I think Collyer suffers from playing for the reserves which is like a graveyard for our players. A lot of the highly rated players from the u-18s go into the first team or go out on loan. Those who go into the reserves end up stagnating as the quality of the football at that level is nowhere near good enough to help them develop.

One other thing is that MUTV telecasts u21s football very rarely so unless you are living in Manchester and attend matches in person, very few people will know if he's actually any good or not.
 
Crimson King said:
I guess one thing to remember is that fans didn't seem to rate Carrick that highly, it was his coaches and teammates that saw his worth.

Obviously we eventually saw his quality at United, but when we paid £18m to Spurs for him a lot of fans were up in arms and oppo fans were laughing at us.

He was worth every penny. If Collyer turns out to be half the player Carrick was then he'd be a good squad option, at the very least.
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Yeah, I was one that took a long time coming round to Carrick, don't mind admitting it.
 
One thing which you can guarantee with ETH is that our academy players will get an opportunity for sure, if you are showing decent potential.
 
Crimson King said:
I guess one thing to remember is that fans didn't seem to rate Carrick that highly, it was his coaches and teammates that saw his worth.

Obviously we eventually saw his quality at United, but when we paid £18m to Spurs for him a lot of fans were up in arms and oppo fans were laughing at us.

He was worth every penny. If Collyer turns out to be half the player Carrick was then he'd be a good squad option, at the very least.
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Oh don’t get me wrong, I rate him pretty highly myself and I have an appreciation for the understated player that keep a team ticking over and set the tempo. It was more that other young guy’s have taken the spot light with the under 18s winning a lot.

Your spot on though in that both Carrick had to almost prove his worth and I’m sure Toby will have to do that too. Both have a reserved energy that I think can bring balance to the team. Fingers crossed he do well in pre season.
 
I've not really been impressed by his touch and passing so I'm surprised he's rated that highly at United, but we haven't seen that much of the u21s this last couple of seasons so I might not have seen enough
 
Adnan said:
@Davie Moyes

I've only watched Collyer play about 3 or 4 times but he stood out every single time I watched him play. To some people the performances of Collyer may not have been stand out, but for me he stood out due to his ability to play as a deep lying playmaker and exhibit his technical ability which was very obvious imo. He's comfortable on the ball and pings passes with both feet with consumate ease and is very capable of taking the ball on the half turn superbly well. He comes across as a very talented young midfielder who is also very intelligent on the pitch.

Who does he remind me off? There's a long way to go for him, but for me there's a bit of Carrick and a bit of Scholes in his game. A bit of Carrick due to him being a deep-lying playmaker and a bit of Scholes due to his ability to play on the half turn and advance play through the thirds.

The video below gives a glimpse of what I'm talking about.


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I made the post above in 2022, and unfortunately since then he has had his career disrupted by injury. But he was showing signs of being a deeper lying playmaker, very intelligent with the ability to ping passes with both feet. Whether he's good enough to be a midfielder at first team level for United remains to be seen. But when you as a manager look to bring through young midfielders like Mainoo and Collyer, then the aim is quite clearly not to play in transition but to play out from the back and dominate the ball through defence and midfield.

I think United has a number of very good young deeper midfielders coming through the ranks. And it'll be interesting to see how things develop.
 
Adnan said:
I made the post above in 2022, and unfortunately since then he has had his career disrupted by injury. But he was showing signs of being a deeper lying playmaker, very intelligent with the ability to ping passes with both feet. Whether he's good enough to be a midfielder at first team level for United remains to be seen. But when you as a manager look to bring through young midfielders like Mainoo and Collyer, then the aim is quite clearly not to play in transition but to play out from the back and dominate the ball through defence and midfield.

I think United has a number of very good young deeper midfielders coming through the ranks. And it'll be interesting to see how things develop.
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Yeah his range of passing and vision definitely stand out as main attributes and even from watching him briefly you can see that his composed in possession.

It’s interesting though that you highlight the type of midfielders that Ten is looking to bring through and how it correlates to the type of football that he wants us to play. Both those that you mentioned showed the ability to retain the ball under pressure which as you say aids building up through the field. I can see opportunities for those like Gore too if the manager stays.

With the variety in style of the midfielders we have in the academy I’m optimistic. We have talent who can help us retain and press the ball and save us potentially making purchases in the future. Definitely interesting times.
 
Bondi77 said:
Anyone that has a clue about football would have known that Carrick was quality by watching him at the Hammers.
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That’s a post that makes sense now, but back when Carrick was actually at West Ham, most fans didn’t rate him. As evidenced by the threads I’ve attached below. Everyone is all knowing in hindsight, but for certain types of players, in certain positions, there is an extremely low hit rate amongst fans in identifying true talent. Just in one of those threads alone, many people had Jenas and Fletcher as better than Carrick - even when Carrick was at Spurs. And when he was at West Ham, most of the posters just called him flat out shit.

I have no idea how this translates to Collyer, I just know that when it comes to unflashy, efficient, technically decent deep playmakers, they usually get rated by fans as “nothing special”, “very average”, when they are coming through - until some manager makes them the foundation of their midfield and then they usually get credit once they’ve hit somewhere between 25-30.

People just generally don’t seem to see much potential in young midfielders that don’t have one of: outstanding physical qualities, an eye catching long range pass, an eye catching long range shot, or great dribbling ability. Recently, extreme press resistance has gained more vogue, somewhat replacing long distance shooting.

In reality, players like Carrick are always underrated by 95% of fans, until well into their career. It has always been so, and will probably always be so. Once that player finally gets recognised for the great player they are, suddenly everyone and their mother always knew they’d be brilliant, and it was easy to see since they were young. Except, reality told a completely different story.

I don’t know if Collyer is any good, but the fact that Brighton’s head of academy rated him so highly, and the manager clearly likes him a lot, is far, far more interesting to me than the general fan take on his potential.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cole-defoe-carrick.27638/

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/fletcher-fabregas-jenas-and-carrick.82983/

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-sun-gunners-pounce-for-carrick.54613/
 
You could see him growing in a few years into a very capable DM. He's got the physicality for it, it's the one thing a lot of our players in the academy haven't had the last decade. You can tell he is going to fill out well. Technically he's very sound, he has every chance of making it.
 
Adnan said:
I made the post above in 2022, and unfortunately since then he has had his career disrupted by injury. But he was showing signs of being a deeper lying playmaker, very intelligent with the ability to ping passes with both feet. Whether he's good enough to be a midfielder at first team level for United remains to be seen. But when you as a manager look to bring through young midfielders like Mainoo and Collyer, then the aim is quite clearly not to play in transition but to play out from the back and dominate the ball through defence and midfield.

I think United has a number of very good young deeper midfielders coming through the ranks. And it'll be interesting to see how things develop.
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Being able to play on the half turn is one of the hardest and most valuable skills in football, up there with those skills that either innately exist in a player or don't, like natural goal scoring ability, vision or being able to beat a man.

For me when watching midfielders, it's the skill that sets apart the Modric, Kroos, Xavi and co all time great midfielders, from the Declan Rice type players, who are excellent in their own right, but lack that ability to open up a game time and again with only a touch, or often knowing when not to touch the ball.

To me, it's the thing that stood out with Mainoo from the moment I watched him, and if Collyer has that similar innate ability then hopefully we're entering a very exciting era for the club, built on the strength of our young academy players. EtH must see something in him, because he gave him the exact same treatment as Kobbie after the Carabao Cup win.
 
He is the kind of player you never notice when he plays - but he was extremely highly rated before joining united
 
He plays in a position that we need. A no 6 player that is athletic and can look after the ball and can pass well. If he can take up that place in the squad then it adds more depth with a home grown option.
 
greater wall said:
He plays in a position that we need. A no 6 player that is athletic and can look after the ball and can pass well. If he can take up that place in the squad then it adds more depth with a home grown option.
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He isn't an option. He doesn't even stand out at U21 level.
 
rimaldo said:
surely that’s the end goal for every player we have in the youth set up?
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I highly doubt even we are amateur enough to believe that.

Most clubs would be happy to get one or two youth players in and around the squad every season.

Every club knows the majority of youth players will end up having a career somewhere else, and hopefully we can make some money while giving them the tools to have a career.
 
eire-red said:
I highly doubt even we are amateur enough to believe that.

Most clubs would be happy to get one or two youth players in and around the squad every season.

Every club knows the majority of youth players will end up having a career somewhere else, and hopefully we can make some money while giving them the tools to have a career.
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that would be a shit goal.

the outcome may be that only a couple will make it at the top level. but to have that as a goal would be terrible and would suggest we’re failing 95% of our youngsters

what age do you think they start giving up on the kids as no hopers for the first team?
 
rimaldo said:
that would be a shit goal.

the outcome may be that only a couple will make it at the top level. but to have that as a goal would be terrible and would suggest we’re failing 95% of our youngsters

what age do you think they start giving up on the kids as no hopers for the first team?
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I think of it like any big organisation. Nobody believes that every single employee has the potential to become part of the executive team. That would be unrealistic, and only the select few ever manage it.

I'd say scouts know as young as 8 years old which youngsters have a real chance, but it's always worth taking a punt on the hundreds of other "maybe's" because the cost for United is minimal, where the upside is potentially massive.

Edit: I'm sure we release loads of young teens every year, which is quite sad actually but I guess if you're not showing it by 14/15, then that unknown upside begins to rapidly shrink.
 
I was quite excited when we signed him as he sounded highly rated and Brighton weren’t happy about losing him but if players like Garner Ben Pearson or Hannibal didn’t make it here and I think they were doing what Collyer is doing here now but in a much more eye catching way... then for me It’ll be like another McT making it through, it will look like a lucky break to most casual observers but sometimes solid squad players who are good pros or late developers do get through. I have no idea what his ceiling is but I’ve seen nothing at all to suggest he’s PL quality let alone Utd quality, even his highlights are average. He was captain of England at one point on his underage journey so he must have potential but I can’t see it for whatever reason. I sincerely hope he makes me eat my words.
 
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Sassy Colin said:
Just seen this article, is he as good as it says he is?

https://www.planetfootball.com/manc...by-collyer-highlights-skills-mainoo-treatment
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It's hard to tell as the U21's aren't on MUTV too much anymore. And he plays the sort of role that can go under the radar. But he certainly hasn't stood out much in the games that I've seen.

He arrived with a good reputation as a deep CM who can contribute defensively (though I don't think good enough defensively for the main DM) and with a good range of passing with either foot (but not as a main playmaker). I think he then struggled with injuries? and hasn't really looked close to the kind of quality that Mainoo and Garnacho showed in the games I've seen.

It would be great though if he quietly is developing into the kind of under the radar, solid and reliable CM that could have a role here. I'd be surprised, but then there's plenty of surprises in players development where the ones you think are certs don't kick on and yet others do. So hopefully he's one of the latter.
 
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