Toby Collyer

BabySinclair said:
Kovar at Sparta Prague was a positive loan.

I think we need a "loan manager" who knows the personality of the player (Is the player ready for a loan?) and knows the situation of the clubs (For example "How safe is their coach in his job?" or "How is their success with loan players in the past?").
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Maybe a job for Darren Fletcher. He seems to be familiar with our youth teams and is responsible for the transission to first team
 
BabySinclair said:
Kovar at Sparta Prague was a positive loan.

I think we need a "loan manager" who knows the personality of the player (Is the player ready for a loan?) and knows the situation of the clubs (For example "How safe is their coach in his job?" or "How is their success with loan players in the past?").
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We have a loan manager iirc
 
BabySinclair said:
Kovar at Sparta Prague was a positive loan.

I think we need a "loan manager" who knows the personality of the player (Is the player ready for a loan?) and knows the situation of the clubs (For example "How safe is their coach in his job?" or "How is their success with loan players in the past?").
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Even if you have a 'loan manager' (which the club probably has for juniors), there are still way too many variables to manage effectively. For example,

1. Different culture (particularly overseas)
2. Change of manager - this is often the big one
3. Playing style/shape of the team and how that might change during the course of the loan spell
4. Injury
5. #minutes/games they are getting and impact on development
6. Reaction from team mates
7. Financial situation
8. The player just isn't happy

There's probably more I'm missing but there have been so many cases in the past where we have sent kids on loan somewhere and they have basically never got a chance. It's a waste of time for all concerned.

We have sent out over 100 players on loans and I can only think of a handful of players who came back to United and gone to play a fair number of first team games.

So around a 90% failure rate...which is really high.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
Even if you have a 'loan manager' (which the club probably has for juniors), there are still way too many variables to manage effectively. For example,

1. Different culture (particularly overseas)
2. Change of manager - this is often the big one
3. Playing style/shape of the team and how that might change during the course of the loan spell
4. Injury
5. #minutes/games they are getting and impact on development
6. Reaction from team mates
7. Financial situation
8. The player just isn't happy

There's probably more I'm missing but there have been so many cases in the past where we have sent kids on loan somewhere and they have basically never got a chance. It's a waste of time for all concerned.

We have sent out over 100 players on loans and I can only think of a handful of players who came back to United and gone to play a fair number of first team games.

So around a 90% failure rate...which is really high.
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Thanks for your great answer.

What would be your solution for "his problem"?

Because some people think "B-Teams" for example in League Two would be a big help.........that doesn't work for the top clubs at least in Germany.
 
Anybody else surprised how Athletic he's looked in the friendlies?
 
Reminds me a bit of Keane. Isn’t afraid to put a challenge in. If we can offload 2 midfielders then I reckon he has a chance of making match day squads along with a new signing, preferably Ugarte.
 
There’s enough in Toby’s game to warrant being given a shot with the first team.
 
BabySinclair said:
Thanks for your great answer.

What would be your solution for "his problem"?

Because some people think "B-Teams" for example in League Two would be a big help.........that doesn't work for the top clubs at least in Germany.
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Am hoping that's where Lausanne comes in.
 
lex talionis said:
There’s enough in Toby’s game to warrant being given a shot with the first team.
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I agree with you. One of Collyer's best attributes is that he reads the game really well. I was paying attention to his movement and each time, be is either demanding the ball in tight situations or making movements to drag the opposition away and make space for his team mates. He sniffs danger quick and has the mobility to shut down danger. Technically, he is good. Keeps the ball moving. Obviously he will be tested when better opposition face United but I believe he has the attributes to step up this season as a defensive midfielder. As he gains more confidence, his passes will be more progressive. His presence would save United some cash that is for sure.
 
KM said:
Anybody else surprised how Athletic he's looked in the friendlies?
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He looked like he had something in reserve when playing in the youth teams like he was playing at 80%. He still had that yesterday and he was playing men's football. Still only preseason but looks promising.
 
andersj said:
People got hyped about Savage and Iqbal two years ago too..
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Very true!

Though ten Hag had only just walked in the door at that point and was taking a look at everyone. Having been in for two years now the signs do seem to point to him thinking Collyer has something to offer. Guess only time will tell but I think he’ll play a bit on the tour.
 
andersj said:
People got hyped about Savage and Iqbal two years ago too..
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They weren't really standing out physically compared to this fella. He looks brighter than McT did when he first jumped onto the scene.
 
andersj said:
People got hyped about Savage and Iqbal two years ago too..
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Collyer was clearly earmarked ahead of this season to be a breakout and he’s showing why in pre-season. Savage/Iqbal didn’t have anything close to the physicality required - it was obvious they weren’t ready - Collyer does have the physicality. I’d be amazed if he’s sent on loan.
 
he should be sent out on loan for the first half of the season then bring him back for the second half of the season if needed....he needs the experience of playing against men and pros
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
Sure, add him to the list. Amad took his goal really well, set up what should have been a goal for Sancho, but I don't remember him doing much beyond those two moments. We expected Amad to be ready, whereas Collyer is a bit more of a surprise, and Mount - having been written off - looks ready to rock this season.
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And set up Wheatley for a very good chance inside the box. Should’ve been a goal and two assists in 45 minutes. Not sure what more you can ask for from a winger.
 
top1whoisman said:
And set up Wheatley for a very good chance inside the box. Should’ve been a goal and two assists in 45 minutes. Not sure what more you can ask for from a winger.
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Run with the ball, take his man on, create 1-2s with his fullback, cross the ball in? Do you read my comment as insulting him? He had two good moments, and was quiet beyond.
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
Sure, add him to the list. Amad took his goal really well, set up what should have been a goal for Sancho, but I don't remember him doing much beyond those two moments. We expected Amad to be ready, whereas Collyer is a bit more of a surprise, and Mount - having been written off - looks ready to rock this season.
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Amad was easily our best performer in the first half (though Yoro was good too). Dangerous everytime he got the ball.
 
I'd obviously like to see Collyer come through and make it here. Can't really claim a strong view either way through given how few U21 games we get to see nowadays. In the matches they've shown, he's never seemed to stand out. But then I admit that he plays the kind of under the radar type role that I probably would fail to appreciate - so hopefully the coaches have seen enough in him to believe he has a chance.

Re: the pre-season hype of Savage and Iqbal. Now that I never went along with. I'd seen plenty of those at both U18 and U21 level and had a very good sense that they were nowhere near the level needed to make it with us - so never agreed with those who (mostly, it seemed) had seen them for the first time in the slow paced friendlies.
 
bosskeano said:
he should be sent out on loan for the first half of the season then bring him back for the second half of the season if needed....he needs the experience of playing against men and pros
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Why when we ourselves might actually need him. Even Ugarte came we don't want to see Eriksen and McTominay getting games, Case is looking like his off colour season wasnt a one of and Ugarte+Mainoo (if they click) can't play every game. We could line up with Casemiro (if he stays), Collyer and Mount (in the 10) for other games or use Collyer (if he proves his mantle) as the 6 with Mount and McTominay in others just to keep things fresh.
 
top1whoisman said:
And set up Wheatley for a very good chance inside the box. Should’ve been a goal and two assists in 45 minutes. Not sure what more you can ask for from a winger.
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What did you think of Sancho’s performance? For me they were similar, and if Sancho’s shot had gone in instead of ballooning over the bar, he would have had a goal and set up two chances. But instead he had some nice touches, nothing fancy, failed to take his chance, and others didn’t convert his passes. Both had good as opposed to poor games. Collyer, in contrast, was instrumental in breaking up attacks, launching counters, and had some clever passes. That made him stand out more, for me.
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
What did you think of Sancho’s performance? For me they were similar, and if Sancho’s shot had gone in instead of ballooning over the bar, he would have had a goal and set up two chances. But instead he had some nice touches, nothing fancy, failed to take his chance, and others didn’t convert his passes. Both had good as opposed to poor games. Collyer, in contrast, was instrumental in breaking up attacks, launching counters, and had some clever passes. That made him stand out more, for me.
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Not to go off topic too much, but I'm firmly in the camp of Amad being by far our best player against Rangers, he was head and shoulders ahead of everyone else on the pitch yesterday. He gave the Rangers left back nightmares and as well as his goal he set up two clear cut chances that Wheatley and Sancho should have scored from. Aside from those 3 key involvements he had some lovely touches and always looked a threat.

On the other hand, I thought Sancho was pretty underwhelming. He missed a gilt edged chance that was put on a plate for him (as opposed to Amad's goal, which he created himself and wasn't an easy finish) and I don't remember him setting up any clear chances? Maybe the one where he passed it to Casemiro about 25 yards out? Other than that he wasn't able to beat his man and he ended up playing a lot of sideways and backwards passes. So I'm not sure how their performances would be considered similar.

As for Collyer, I thought he was ok. He had some decent defensive contributions but I'm not sure I saw him launching many counter attacks and the only decent pass I remember him making was a one-two with Wan Bisaka. This might not be the case and maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but it seems like some people decided at the end of last year that Ten Hag has identified Collyer as this years Mainoo and because of that he's been overhyped even though his performances at u21 level were nothing to write home about. Hopefully I'm proven wrong and I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing him play a bit more against some decent opposition in the next couple of weeks.
 
Revival2024 said:
I agree with you. One of Collyer's best attributes is that he reads the game really well. I was paying attention to his movement and each time, be is either demanding the ball in tight situations or making movements to drag the opposition away and make space for his team mates. He sniffs danger quick and has the mobility to shut down danger. Technically, he is good. Keeps the ball moving. Obviously he will be tested when better opposition face United but I believe he has the attributes to step up this season as a defensive midfielder. As he gains more confidence, his passes will be more progressive. His presence would save United some cash that is for sure.
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Completely agree. No one is claiming that Toby is a sure thing, but what is undeniable is that he's strong enough already on and off the ball to be given more minutes in pre-season and if he ticks the right boxes be given minutes in cleanup duty in the league and a start or two in domestic cup matches. What I really like about him is his ability to read the game and his self-belief, whatever the situation.
 


Seems like the club and ETH really believe he could be the next youngster to break through into the first team, after Mainoo and Garnacho...but I personally don't expect Collyer to be as important for us as those two just yet...but that's fine. Would be great to have another kid integrated into the team even in just a squad role.

I really want to see a Mainoo-Collyer double pivot in the Premier League at some point next season.
 
Rojofiam said:


Seems like the club and ETH really believe he could be the next youngster to break through into the first team, after Mainoo and Garnacho...but I personally don't expect Collyer to be as important for us as those two just yet...but that's fine. Would be great to have another kid integrated into the team even in just a squad role.

I really want to see a Mainoo-Collyer double pivot in the Premier League at some point next season.
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His performance against Arsenal would certainly suggest he is good enough for a squad role at minimum. I could see the value in loaning him if it is a carefully managed loan with a guarantee of playing time but failing that I think he could get a fair amount of game time with the first team this season as we anticipate 60+ games.
 
Gandalf said:
His performance against Arsenal would certainly suggest he is good enough for a squad role at minimum. I could see the value in loaning him if it is a carefully managed loan with a guarantee of playing time but failing that I think he could get a fair amount of game time with the first team this season as we anticipate 60+ games.
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I think he missed a lot of games at youth level due to injuries. I think going from that to regular PL or Championship football could be actually worse for him than sporadic minutes at United. He's only 20, in his position he still has a lot of time to grow into a good player.
 
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