You've had a stormer in here. Congrats.
There's nothing extreme about my view either. Carrick doesn't compare to the force that Roy Keane was in midfield.
Tiemoue Bakayoko
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You've had a stormer in here. Congrats.
There's nothing extreme about my view either. Carrick doesn't compare to the force that Roy Keane was in midfield.
You obviously never saw Keane play in his peak with your assumptions about him not cutting it in the game now.
So did I. He had an engine on him but he was never a speed merchant. You cant compare him to Kante who has pace to burn. Paul Ince was the speed merchant in midfield
I don't think lots of players would cut it now. The game evolves all the time. Inzaghi would not have had the career he had if he was coming through now, for example.
Keane was never quite as explosive after he did his cruciate, but he adapted. Kanté is clearly much faster. I think that is obvious.
Now answer my question, because I'm not 12.
I never said he was a speed merchant
He was more than quick enough to play in midfield and pace was never something that could be used against him as a weakness.
Gotcha
Keane only retired 10 odd years ago! He played alongside Rooney for crying out loud
To be fair, Keane wasn't exactly slow when he was younger.
And was poor. He was over the hill.
The idea that there's such a thing as 'modern football' is a myth. Top teams from the 90s could just as easily compete today with their brand of football. The only thing that changes is what's fashionable. Any well-thought system will bring the best out of the right group of players.
It's a conceit of youth to believe that anything new, let alone superior, gets created in football.
It's a conceit of youth to believe that anything new, let alone superior, gets created in football.
Only because he was older, not because the game passed him by
That's very true, I watched the EURO 84 during the summer and almost all the top players were "modern" footballers, particularly the CMs.
But can you explain to me how Keanes pace was a weakness as you point out.
If a player like Vidal can thrive today so can Keane.
One of the big issues was we still often played a 2 man midfield and we never really bought a top class partner for Carrick once Scholes got too old, midfield just never seemed to interest Fergie as much after the Robbo and Keane type of CM faded.
I agree mate, one of the reasons we've been in the mess we've been in the last 3 years.
Are you serious? '99?
He wasn't around to see the semi against Juve I'm assuming.
DIGRESSING 
In Keane's day, there weren't as many little shits such as Silva, Coutinho, Hazard who would play between the lines. These players are brilliant at drawing fouls (it's an art form and is actually coached abroad). You can't get away with serial fouling now. Players are often booked for one mistimed tackle. Keane would have suffered in this environment. Also, a lot of these nimble attacking midfielders are very quick to go alongside their high skill level. Unless you are literally just sitting in front of the back four and looking to screen/mark zones, you will spend most of your time chasing shadows. Keane would have been wasted in such a role, and his long range passing wasn't his biggest asset.
The general level of fitness among players has increased. Keane's stamina levels used to set him apart from your average midfielder. Now there are dozens of athletes. What was once a rare epic with genetic freaks such as Vieira is now a more common occurrence. The league is full of them. Wanyama, Kanté, Matić, Gueye, Kouyaté, Obiang, Fernandinho, Yaya, Pogba, etc. Keane would have to face bigger men than him more regularly.
he said many to be fair
not "any"Did you see s on the end of final?
Yeah, but it still makes one more than Carrick by my reckoning.
Keane would annihilate kante if he'd played against him. Possibly slightly less agile but it's close, but better in every other way. Close control, passing, attacking play, even as a goal threat, he was leagues better than anything Kante offers. Add to that leadership. Different calibre of player mate.
Exaggeration if I ever saw one.
Not gonna say anything more about it on this thread but anyone who has seen a lot of Keane over the years wouldn't call it exaggeration. Such was his ability that if he played in our current team we could play a central midfield two of him and Pogba without the need for a third player there.
Anyway each to their opinions, some of which may have been formed without actually seeing much of said players.
Football from the 80s onwards was the professional game we see today (more so in Europe than England, tbf). If you were at the top of the tree from any time since then, you could just as easily fit in now.
Any news on this Bakayoko guy? Are we signing him or not?
Can you guys take the Midfield discussion somewhere else? I'd like to read on the guy on his actual thread.
Can you guys take the Midfield discussion somewhere else? I'd like to read on the guy on his actual thread.
Apparently we're interested, but impossible to say one way or another. There's nothing remotely concrete yet, just speculation.
Good lord have you had a mare in this thread. You know football started before 1999 right?
To be honest, they have been no new since the summer. Journos are rehashing old news.
I'm well aware. Formations, tactics, fitness and rules have changed in that time. Did you know this?
Seriously guys... take the Keane, Carrick, Kante and 80's football to a thread where it's supposed to be. Read two pages now and I've only read "Bakayoko" like once...
I did but we arent talking about millions of years of evolution are we? 10 years since Keane retired.
How did this turn into a Keane v Carrick contest? To be honest that isn't even a contest. Keane was the complete midfielder. It's not even close.
I'd like to think Bakayoko would disagree with the underrating of Keane too.
Bakayoko reminds me a lot of Matuidi, who I believe Mourinho was interested in during the summer so this move makes a lot of sense. He seems to have good composure and confidence in using his considerable frame to retain possession, similar to Pogba and Matuidi. He also drives forward like those two, has the defensive box to box qualities of Matuidi and the stamina to match.
However, he will still struggle in a double pivot with Pogba, and we will have similar problems to that of the French national team. He, like Matuidi and Pogba, lacks the positional discipline and would be more suited to an additional holding player (i.e Kante, Fabinho). For Castles to suggest that he is a #6 is a bit of a surprise to me, he doesn't seem that player. Herrera is the only one capable of the discipline required to replace Carrick, Blind notwithstanding.
For what it's worth, I'd like to see:
Timothy Fosu-Mensah played primarily as a centre back and also as cover for full back.
Daley Blind played as a direct replacement for Carrick in games where we are expected to dominate. Ander Herrera as the other option for a holding midfielder. Bakayoko of Fosu-Mensah could deputize in games where we need a physical presence.
Pogba, Bakayoko/Niguiz and Herrera to rotate as the two players in front of the holding midfielder.
However, he will still struggle in a double pivot with Pogba, and we will have similar problems to that of the French national team. He, like Matuidi and Pogba, lacks the positional discipline and would be more suited to an additional holding player (i.e Kante, Fabinho). For Castles to suggest that he is a #6 is a bit of a surprise to me, he doesn't seem that player. Herrera is the only one capable of the discipline required to replace Carrick, Blind notwithstanding.
For what it's worth, I'd like to see:
Timothy Fosu-Mensah played primarily as a centre back and also as cover for full back.
Daley Blind played as a direct replacement for Carrick in games where we are expected to dominate. Ander Herrera as the other option for a holding midfielder. Bakayoko of Fosu-Mensah could deputize in games where we need a physical presence.
Pogba, Bakayoko/Niguiz and Herrera to rotate as the two players in front of the holding midfielder.
How come we want him now? I thought Fabinho was the best midfielder Monaco has, and we were previously linked with him.
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