Who did the Rock loose to clean, and as a face? Lesnar? I know Heyman interfered, but it was well before the finish.
Television Tho Prop Grops Throps
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Absolutely not. The show is a behemoth compared to anything else. It's so far above them it's unreal. The show still pulls in massive views and there's nothing else comparable to watch.
I can only really think of Austin, and on very rare occasions Trips. For Austin I can only think of Rock in his retirement match that was clean. Hell, fecker no showed rather than put Brock over.
Quite a lot of revisionism going on here.
Not really, theres a difference between losing clean once but then dominating the rest of the feud vs losing (may not clean) but having an even feud.
Cenas only lost to Owens and Brock in the sense of losing / being pinned "clean". Recently however, hes won the feuds or battered Bray, Rusev, currently ahead of Owens if they decide to continue that. Last year iirc the Rollins/Cena feud didnt really do much for Rollins but "its ok, he has MITB". Even before that, he beat sandow, Dolph and Barrett all ended up being worse of after their matches / feuds.
Owens is a special case because he will look better than before he started, but thats only because he debuted.
Also Rock/Austin, as I said was different because they were on top for what, 4-5 years? Whereas Cena has been on top and dominating for 10 years now in almost the same manner. Theres no doubt his match quality has been fantastic, but who has really been "made" or really elevated?
Its not really revisionism to say Angle / Jericho / Mankind / Benoit / HHH looked better after their feuds / matches with Austin/Rock.
Cenas only lost to Owens and Brock in the sense of losing / being pinned "clean". Recently however, hes won the feuds or battered Bray, Rusev, currently ahead of Owens if they decide to continue that. Last year iirc the Rollins/Cena feud didnt really do much for Rollins but "its ok, he has MITB". Even before that, he beat sandow, Dolph and Barrett all ended up being worse of after their matches / feuds.
Owens is a special case because he will look better than before he started, but thats only because he debuted.
Also Rock/Austin, as I said was different because they were on top for what, 4-5 years? Whereas Cena has been on top and dominating for 10 years now in almost the same manner. Theres no doubt his match quality has been fantastic, but who has really been "made" or really elevated?
Its not really revisionism to say Angle / Jericho / Mankind / Benoit / HHH looked better after their feuds / matches with Austin/Rock.
Did Cena help Edge? It's been so long, I can't remember how that panned out. Was Edge big before that feud?
I miss Edge.
I miss Edge.
As Sylar mentioned Jericho, Angle & Lesnar, Goldberg and even Shane "The Hurricane" Helms! OK, The Hurricane had Austin kind of interfere but to lose to Hurricane even was a huge push for the guy. The Rock also sold his feckin arse off to put Goldberg over, he even had Goldberg hit the Rock Bottom on him and was pinned, clean.
No revisionism going on here @phelans shorts, easily forgotten though. The Rock is probably the most selfless wrestler in the history of the business, Jericho is there about too.
Never say never, I wouldn't be so sure about that Zarlak.
WCW we're at one time making profits of approx $50m per annum (95-98) looking around online, very difficult to find exact figures though. By the time they were neck deep in it they were reporting annual loses of approx $12-17m per annum (99-01), $60m in 2000!!
However, currently WWE is actually reporting financial loses of $30m!!
https://www.google.ie/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=wwe annual profits
If WWE shut up shop in 5-10 years, I honestly wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised.
Most of these were as a heel, which can't be compared to Cena's situation.
When did he loose clean to Jericho, all I can remember is No Mercy 2001, Vengeance 2001, and Royal Rumble 2002, none of which were anything like clean.
Even as a heel, the Hurricane deal was ridiculous, to be fair.
Even as a heel The Rock was white hot, hotter than Cena at his feckin peak!
Besides they've been booking Cena like a heel for around 5 years now, the guy acts a right dick sometimes!The majority of the Rock v Jericho feud was the Rock as a face and he put Jericho over big time. Ok it wasn't a clean pin fall but clean pin falls in those days were a very rare occurrence. I probably shouldn't have used the term clean pin fall, none the less he was very selfless.
Edit: Jericho's debut as a heel and The Rock as a face:
Some info here on this thread I just googled.
http://www.wrestlingforum.com/gener...-jericho-2001-2002-one-greatest-all-time.html
Why was the hurricane deal ridiculous? The Rock did great promo's with him, he got great exposure from it and then lost to the guy. What more could he do?
Simple fact is, The AE and RA era were the peak of the business and it was the peak because they had so many selfless guys in there willing to put other talent over, The Rock, Austin, Trips, Foley etc... They all gave each other the push they deserved.
Can't believe they kicked Patrick off of tough enough. We need another Shelton Benjamin in the wwe.
Ridiculous was in this instance meant as a positive.
I've heard that Cena is excellent in a supporting role in the new film "Trainwreck". Maybe he'll do a Rock and bugger off to hollywood?
That's the issue with the current system they're using. In fairness I expected him to stay and for Josh to go in the public vote, seems he's got more support than expected. Doesn't help that there's such a short window for voting either.
Mada has surprised me a bit in the last week or two. Gave him no chance at the start, he's working the basic character he's got well now. Sara Lee was my favorite at the start but then I realised she's nothing like I expected, so tense and really needs to loosen up. A tonne of work for her to do if she seriously wants to make it in the business. Clearly got a decent fan base already though so in this system she stands a chance even if she isn't as good as Chelsea or Giorgia.
Wwe still has work to do with the intercontinental title and the tag team championship. Anyone miss the old days when there was purpose behind the tag team titles? Nowadays there are no promos or incentives for the feuds of the tag team championship just a bunch of lasy bookings by the wwe.
I've not watched wrestling in years, look in this thread now and again though.
About the tag teams, are there any actual dedicated tag teams these days? Used to be loads, Dudley Boys, Hardy Boys, Headbangerz, Legion of Doom, APA, DX (Road Dogg and Billy Gunn), Edge & Christian. To name a few.
Now it seems tag teams are just a random mix of 2 primarily singles wrestlers?
I love giorgia. I hope she wins. She has decent athleticism , great charisma and she is bad af. She would make a nice divas champion one day.
Fans can be retarded when it comes to voting. Zz has no athleticism what so ever and is still here. Patrick better get a deal soon.Tanner Should probably win now.
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Oh right, my bad.
Another two names that he made look great were Benoit and Guerrero, I don't think he lost to either in singles matches mind you. In both cases, The Rock was the first Top name to work a match with either of them. Benoit v Rock happened during the summer of them arriving. He beat Benoit, but again great exposure and made him look great.
Guerrero's case, The Rock worked with him I believe after Eddie was stuck in a rut and fired from the company. On his return he had a match with him.
The Rock, Bordering on Jobber level!
Glad some other people watch TE. They really pushed the Patrick ego angle yesterday. Even last week Hogan called out Patrick on his promo even though Patrick won it
Agreed Mada, has really brought it. For me, its between him and Tanner right now. Not surprised ZZ is still there. Character is helping him with the fans who are voting even if it sees him get into the bottom three every week.
Didnt Hurricane and Rosie then go and lose a handicap match to HHH like a week or two later. I remember how bad it was. Hurricane stood "toe to toe" with Rock with the hilarious three week promo, beat him before WM in a huge win (it wasnt a squash but he fluked with a rollup). But then a week or two later, hes losing to HHH despite having a partner and then never used again. It made no sense and still doesnt.
Agreed Mada, has really brought it. For me, its between him and Tanner right now. Not surprised ZZ is still there. Character is helping him with the fans who are voting even if it sees him get into the bottom three every week.
Didnt Hurricane and Rosie then go and lose a handicap match to HHH like a week or two later. I remember how bad it was. Hurricane stood "toe to toe" with Rock with the hilarious three week promo, beat him before WM in a huge win (it wasnt a squash but he fluked with a rollup). But then a week or two later, hes losing to HHH despite having a partner and then never used again. It made no sense and still doesnt.
Honestly I can't remember, but I don't recall him lasting too long. Him and The Rock had great chemistry, they were comedy gold!
Is Tough Enough worth watching? It's on the Network isn't it?
I think it comes on USA network in USA ^ @LilRicky
Dont think its on the Network.
Dont think its on the Network.
ah plenty of streams of it to be found I'm sure
Will give it a look at over the weekend.
Seems to be a lot of hype around some guy called ZZ?
ah plenty of streams of it to be found I'm sure
Will give it a look at over the weekend.
Seems to be a lot of hype around some guy called ZZ?
No comment :P
Is that not exactly what Cena has been doing with Zayn, Neville, Owens(barring the tapout), etc? It's not up to him with the WWE do with them outside of his programs with them.Oh right, my bad.
Another two names that he made look great were Benoit and Guerrero, I don't think he lost to either in singles matches mind you. In both cases, The Rock was the first Top name to work a match with either of them. Benoit v Rock happened during the summer of them arriving. He beat Benoit, but again great exposure and made him look great.
Guerrero's case, The Rock worked with him I believe after Eddie was stuck in a rut and fired from the company. On his return he had a match with him.
The Rock, Bordering on Jobber level!
Hmm, kinda. Early days yet though.
I mean, Zayn is injured so its not like he could stick around after his Cena match. Neville hasn't exactly profited from the Cena match has he?
The Rock worked with both those guys early on, Benoit got a his first title shot against The Rock and stuck around the upper mid card or title scene there after.
He's also in the new Tina Fey movie so I wouldn't rule it out.
WWE will be up shits creek then.
He hasn't no, but Cena has done his part so far, making him look a million bucks and a serious threat, as I say, after that it's up to the bookers to keep it going. So far though they haven't, tbh his kind almost never make it too far in the WWE, sadly.
It's fecking annoying how stop start they are with most wrestlers momentum, in fairness.
There's a lot to blame Cena for*, but lately he seems to be doing what he can for the next crew. It's up to the WWE to keep them on track.
*That promo last RAW with Rollins for a glaring example. Fuck! That was far too overboard on a champ that's already being booked to look like shit.
In a way it'll be the best thing for WWE, Vinces hand will be forced and he'll have to wake the feck up and get creative again. I could see him being more forceful about creating new stars.
Phelan called it 50/50 booking, I call it flip flop booking. They've no fecking idea who they want to push and even how they want to push them, face or heel? They don't even seem to understand how to create either a face or heel.
Cesaro was the perfect example of it, pushed very strongly a year or so back going into Mania. Had him win the Andre the Giant Battle Royal as a face...Hogan gives him props on the post mania raw...then stuck him with the monster heel creator... Paul Heyman! So frustrating. Do you boo or cheer him then? With Heyman he just hung around midcard purgatory. The partnership with Heyman ended in a couple of months, so it was completely pointless and as bad as it was with Heyman, without him he went on a major free fall through the rankings and all but vanished until he teamed with Kidd at the back end of last year.
I just hope to god the match with Cena and the props Cena gave him post match pay off, he really should of had at least 1 title reign by now.
Caesar's to become champion.
They could have salvaged that as well by him becoming increasingly jealous/annoyed and going against lesnar and giving him a somewhat even match instead of just announcing to the authority in a backstage segment that he isnt a heyman guy anymore.
Well last years WWE results are quite anomalous, there's A LOT of one off costs involved with setting up something like the Network, so we'll see how this plays out. It would take astonishingly bad business decisions for them to go out of business at this point.
I expect he will be signed. The huge prize makes anyone who comes out of TE a target in the dressing room, its basically a huge target on their back, so the company will want to keep him off that prize if he's to win.
The tag division is one of Triple H's babys, he's doing a lot of work behind the scenes getting actual teams to form (or in one case that is yet to become common knowledge just signing them as a team) so that they don't just work as two guys who are thrown together. Cesarogun were great at it but unfortunately Tyson broke his neck, New Day work fantastic as a team, plenty in developmental that have great chemistry (Blake and Murphy, Enzo and Cass, the Mechanics & Shoot Nation spring to mind).
Tough Talk with the Miz is on the Network, and is quite frankly fantastic tv. Miz is such a great host.
Sorry I meant WWE Title reign.
Yep, how the hell did they drop the ball so badly.
Even reading that alone sells itself. Take my money god damn it!
Yeah, the Network was a massive dent in the coffers I'd imagine.
They are really pushing for subscribers, any idea how many they currently have? A mini revolt happened again after Battleground and Owens loss I believe. If they keep going with those kind of booking decisions they'll only hurt themselves further you'd imagine.
Yep, how the hell did they drop the ball so badly.
Even reading that alone sells itself. Take my money god damn it!
Yeah, the Network was a massive dent in the coffers I'd imagine.
They are really pushing for subscribers, any idea how many they currently have? A mini revolt happened again after Battleground and Owens loss I believe. If they keep going with those kind of booking decisions they'll only hurt themselves further you'd imagine.
There was also a "revolt" after Rumble but the numbers increased (especially given it was WM time). I suspect with Summerslam coming up, the increase of original content, the NXT show night before Summerslam and them doing the 1 month free to new subscribers deal a lot, the numbers will be much over a million when its announced.
You know what that promo reminded me off? When a heel comes out, blasts a face wrestler and puts him down, but then ends up losing to that guy clean in the match, thus negating everything he said. Kinda like JBL did to Punk.
But it would be funny if this was more HHH against Booker T at WM.
Oh and Cena isnt meant to be a heel.
You know what that promo reminded me off? When a heel comes out, blasts a face wrestler and puts him down, but then ends up losing to that guy clean in the match, thus negating everything he said. Kinda like JBL did to Punk.
But it would be funny if this was more HHH against Booker T at WM.
Oh and Cena isnt meant to be a heel.
Yeah, that whole Cesaro thing was a clusterfeck, no idea what they were thinking or doing. Like you say, hope he starts getting his payoff.
This about sums it up.
Jesus yes. That would have been perfect, even if he looses he'd look great. Like Reigns/Lesnar, think that actually helped Reigns quite a bit, well that and removing him from a title scene he wasn't ready for.
I really hope Reigns/Wyatt and Ambrose get back into the title mix and not Cena again!
Heel to the adults, face to the kids, heh.
Have they announced what the content will be?
Still annoyed they didn't put more AE RAW and Smackdown on it. Do away with the lame pre show stuff, complete and utter waste.
That cartoon is brilliant
So true!Cena should just steal Miz' "new haters needed, the old ones are liking me" slogan. Just pretend Miz didnt use it or even exists.
I meant with regards to house shows now looking to be part of it (like Japan), Renees show, Corey Graves show, obviously NXT. On a side note, wouldnt be surprised if we end up seeing a WWE PPV in England soon for Network only (or something similar).