Television Tho Prop Grops Throps

MoneyMay said:
Well you have used it prematurely twice (re Waytt and Cesaro).



No, he really hasn't. Wyatt has been outstanding in this feud. Forget about the booking, he has done a fantastic job with his gimmick and has even had the backing of the fans, despite being a HEEL. Cena's generic tactic of using another stars' gimmick and manipulating it in a way which buries him didn't work out. I think that says enough. At WrestleMania, Wyatt came out looking fantastic. At Extreme Rules, which was horribly booked, Wyatt's manipulative side was portrayed quite well.

The whole point of the feud IMO was to expose Cena, from Wyatt's point of view. Is he really about loyalty and respect? The way he set about doing it is what you should putting emphasis on. ALL of us knew that he wasn't going to win at Payback. There was no way, but because he lost that means he has been "buried"? That is far from the case, and WWE are high on him at the moment. He's going to come back and get an even bigger push very soon. Keep watching.



Well firstly, I didn't say that having Heyman makes him a huge star, but WWE have clearly identified him as a potential top talent. Whether he's in the top, top bracket is open to debate, as I don't think he possesses the mic skills required to be at the very top. The match he had with Sheamus was good, and even though he lost, he put on a solid performance. Losing in that manner, against one of Vince McMahon's favourites, isn't a bad thing at all.

Post-WrestleMania, Cesaro's character is what has changed, and that's what has gone against him. He has transformed into a coward heel. The changes I can think of: being a coward, walking weirdly as he comes out, and his theme music being changed to something that resembles the construction of a child. It doesn't matter if he has Heyman as manager talking about Lesnar. I think that's the plan - I see it as that transparent - and it will result in a match with Lesnar. If that isn't the case, then yeah of course, I agree with you. He's not, however, going down the same route as Ryback. It's been reported many times that Ryback is a danger to his opponents - he can't wrestle. There's no connection between the two, really - and Heyman being a former manager to Ryback doesn't link them in any way.
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I appreciate the detailed response, I agree with some points and others not so much...

Just compare the shield with say the wyatts... The shield have gone over a number of top stars in recent months, more recently evolution. Each member of evolution has made the shield look like genuine stars, how? by giving them the win and putting them over and having a number of victories when it matters (PPV's). They now sit in the main event slot and have done since WM!

Compared that to Wyatt who sits around midcard to upper mid card since WM! Wyatt has done a tremendous job of promoting himself on the mic and really made the feud. He has shown he can hang there with the big players and is deserving of a shot at main eventing. Sadly he had the misfortune of being inthe feud with Cena, who never lies down for anyone. I'd say that is down to Vinnie Mac more so, he flat out refuses to let Cena lose. I've asked it previously, think about it if Wyatt actually won at Payback? Where would his standing be within the company? Main Event wouldn't it?

Instead Super Cena wins out to save the day...AGAIN! If Cena had lost as I have argued he should have then it wouldn't of really hurt Cena at all. His standing in the company in & out of the ring is untouchable now!

In short a loss for Wyatt is more damaging than a loss for Cena.


Edit:

Just one other thing, I'm not sure now where they go with Wyatt tbh. He may well go face and leave Harper & Rowan. Distinct possibility in the near future. The crowd is very much behind him and I'm not sure who he can feud with now, to keep him as a heel. Hence a win for him made more sense as well and he could of went on to feud with Bryan?
 
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Duffy said:
Crazy really - still remember the week of Judgement Day 2001 where Angle and Benoit went 3 falls. Benoit was the surprise partner for Jericho the same night in tag turmoil. The following night on raw they had that classic tag match against Austin and Triple H (where he did his quad). They then followed that up with TLC 3 on Smackdown.

Most people never have a **** match, Benoit had 3 in 3 day's. That's before you even mention things like Angle v Benoit at Backlash that year or the Royal Rumble a few years later. Speaking of which Jericho v Benoit ladder match at the 2001 Rumble is another classic. 3 truly talented wrestlers.
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I still maintain that was the best TLC of the lot. On freaking Smackdown, I remember watch the episode, and expecting the match to get cancelled, or something, who the feck expected a TLC on Smackdown? :lol:

The ladder at the 2001 Rumble was quite special too. Benoit was mental, that Walls of Jericho on the ladder must have hurt like feck, holding all of Jericho, and his own weight, on the point of the ladder, with his spine! :wenger:
 
Randall Flagg said:
The few times ive watched it these days has been horrific. The attitude era and what came after was mostly very good. I think it was following the split it went down hill.

It is far too PG nowadays
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I know that you're just trying to wind me up so I won't bite. Must try harder

Cantonarightboot said:
I appreciate the detailed response, I agree with some points and others not so much...

Just compare the shield with say the wyatts... The shield have gone over a number of top stars in recent months, more recently evolution. Each member of evolution has made the shield look like genuine stars, how? by giving them the win and putting them over and having a number of victories when it matters (PPV's). They now sit in the main event slot and have done since WM!

Compared that to Wyatt who sits around midcard to upper mid card since WM! Wyatt has done a tremendous job of promoting himself on the mic and really made the feud. He has shown he can hang there with the big players and is deserving of a shot at main eventing. Sadly he had the misfortune of being inthe feud with Cena, who never lies down for anyone. I'd say that is down to Vinnie Mac more so, he flat out refuses to let Cena lose. I've asked it previously, think about it if Wyatt actually won at Payback? Where would his standing be within the company? Main Event wouldn't it?

Instead Super Cena wins out to save the day...AGAIN! If Cena had lost as I have argued he should have then it wouldn't of really hurt Cena at all. His standing in the company in & out of the ring is untouchable now!

In short a loss for Wyatt is more damaging than a loss for Cena.


Edit:

Just one other thing, I'm not sure now where they go with Wyatt tbh. He may well go face and leave Harper & Rowan. Distinct possibility in the near future. The crowd is very much behind him and I'm not sure who he can feud with now, to keep him as a heel. Hence a win for him made more sense as well and he could of went on to feud with Bryan?
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the feud isn't over and the plan is to carry it on through the year. A loss didn't hurt Wyatt at all it's a long feud that will be extremely beneficial to Wyatt.
 
Imagine being 27 and being "stuck" in the upper midcard after feuding with Cena. Buried!
 
rolandofgilead said:
the feud isn't over and the plan is to carry it on through the year. A loss didn't hurt Wyatt at all it's a long feud that will be extremely beneficial to Wyatt.
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Seems like it's over to me tbh, Cena interupting Steph on Raw this week indicates he is moving onto MITB to insert himself in the match (either for the vacant title or for the brief case itself)... I can see Cena moving onto being champ again by the time Summer Slam is done with.

Saying that, if the feud carries on with Cena I can still see Cena coming out on top (be it in a month, 2 or 3) and keep Wyatt where he is...
 
Big-Oranje said:
Imagine being 27 and being "stuck" in the upper midcard after feuding with Cena. Buried!
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Tell that to Barrett (well nexus as a whole), Mr Anderson, the entire spirit squad, ADR, Ziggler AND Ridiculously even Lesnar when he returned!!! Thats just off the top of my head! Even the Rock (highlighting the fact he had notes on his wrist), doing that to a legend like the rock is a joke! Basically being a pr!ck when he (and his character) deem he shouldn't be!

Nice position to be in alright... Maybe I am pre-empting the "Buriel"... but I think its fair when you look at past experiences...
 
Cantonarightboot said:
Tell that to Barrett (well nexus as a whole), Mr Anderson, the entire spirit squad, ADR, Ziggler AND Ridiculously even Lesnar when he returned!!! Thats just off the top of my head! Even the Rock (highlighting the fact he had notes on his wrist), doing that to a legend like the rock is a joke! Basically being a pr!ck when he (and his character) deem he shouldn't be!

Nice position to be in alright... Maybe I am pre-empting the "Buriel"... but I think its fair when you look at past experiences...
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The Nexus were mostly rubbish, most were surprised that Husky Harris actually turned out to be ridiculously good since, tbh, Mr Anderson was mediocre, dangerous, and overrated, the Spirit Squad(really? ffs)? ADR is boring as feck(and his armbar is about as good as Cena's STF, you'd think a legit MMA fighter would realise how bad he's making it look), Ziggler is overrated as feck because he throws himself about and oversells everything(though he is quite good, not main event). Hard to blame Cena for Lesnar, every cnut as hammered him since his return except the Undertaker.
 
Zarlak said:
Cantona, losing a match doesn't mean buried. Losing 4 matches doesn't mean buried. Working a program with the biggest name in the business on TV every week and every PPV doesn't mean buried.
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Zarlak said:
Cantona, losing a match doesn't mean buried. Losing 4 matches doesn't mean buried. Working a program with the biggest name in the business on TV every week and every PPV doesn't mean buried.
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See my comment above... he buried ALL previous talent he has feuded with!!

Jeez your all a bunch of Cena nut huggers in here :lol:
Personally can't stand the guy and he has ruined the product for me...

Edit: this article sums up Cena in a nutshell for anyone who cares to read it!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...48-10-ways-john-cena-has-hurt-the-wwe-product
 
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I'm bored of arguing about the term 'buried' but I'll just make the point that Mr Kennedy/Anderson's WWE career went downhill after he got on the wrong side of Randy Orton. feck all to do with Cena.
 
Welsh Wonder said:
I'm bored of arguing about the term 'buried' but I'll just make the point that Mr Kennedy/Anderson's WWE career went downhill after he got on the wrong side of Randy Orton. feck all to do with Cena.
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aye, me too... clearly peoples opinions / definitions differ here... its just resurfaced again from few days ago!
 
Cantonarightboot said:
aye, me too... clearly peoples opinions / definitions differ here... its just resurfaced again from few days ago!
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it's resurfaced because you seem incapable of accepting that you might be wrong on this occasion. Cena has helped to put over some top talent over the years, Danian Bryan beat him for the title, he put over CM Punk on the back if his worked shoot promo in 2011 he continues to promote NXT and the young talent that's coming through. I am not Cenas biggest fan (promo on monday aside because i thought it was incredible) but he has far from buried Bray Wyatt, Wyatt has looked incredibly strong during this feud and if you payed attention to harper and rowens promo on monday they said they were going after the USOs because they were Cenas flock. The feud will continue and Bray Wyatt will continue to look very strong!
 
On topic, when I was a fan numerous guys got buried especially from the end of WCW and ECW era

DDP
Kanyon
Sabu
Sandman
Mike Awesome
Rhyno (Started off with a big push then demoted to Heat/shitty shows)
 
Now DDP, that was a proper burial, brought him in as a stalker, ffs.

They had a ready made, main event rivalry too, him v the Rock for the title of Peoples Champion. He'd have lost it, naturally, but it would have made his WWE career.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Honestly I am not. I really think its poor nowadays
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Agree, the product is quite poor these days!

I never fast forwarded any content back between 98-2004! Watched every single minute of it and was gripped by most of the content that WWE put out. These days I find myself fast forwarding almost all of it, stopping for segments with the shield, cesaro, wyatts and bryan (even with him occassionally)...

Still, I have been a fan all my life pretty much and will continue to do so in the hope things really improve again!
 
Earthquake said:
Now DDP, that was a proper burial, brought him in as a stalker, ffs.

They had a ready made, main event rivalry too, him v the Rock for the title of Peoples Champion. He'd have lost it, naturally, but it would have made his WWE career.
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Yes his catch phrase was "Make Me Famous" he was already well known to everyone who was a wrestling fan. I really liked him in WCW
 
Cantonarightboot said:
See my comment above... he buried ALL previous talent he has feuded with!!

Jeez your all a bunch of Cena nut huggers in here :lol:
Personally can't stand the guy and he has ruined the product for me...

Edit: this article sums up Cena in a nutshell for anyone who cares to read it!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...48-10-ways-john-cena-has-hurt-the-wwe-product
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Stop trolling please.

Look at what you said.

Bray Wyatt has been buried by Cena as far as I'm concerned, come on for god sake like.
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So, see your own previous comment.

He hasn't buried Bray Whyatt. Not even close. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite of buried. I can see that you can't stand the guy, it's obvious. Everyone here can see that you can't stand the guy because you can't be logical when you talk about him.
 
How am I trolling? its expressing an opinion... Far as Im concerned I am being logical. I've given reasons for why I think like this, provided links and thats where I stand on the matter!

Just because it doesn't appeal to other people opinions doesn't make it trolling!

I have said no more on the matter until Money May decided to bring it up again... In few months time it'll probably be a case of people back tracking and saying stuff like Wyatt was never that good / deserving of going over on Cena anyway so you hardly expected it... (eg much like the examples I gave above, Barret, Ziggler, ADR and even Lesnar when I gave those guys as names Cena has buried in the past)
 
Cantonarightboot said:
How am I trolling? its expressing an opinion... Far as Im concerned I am being logical. I've given reasons for why I think like this, provided links and thats where I stand on the matter!

Just because it doesn't appeal to other people opinions doesn't make it trolling!

I have said no more on the matter until Money May decided to bring it up again... In few months time it'll probably be a case of people back tracking and saying stuff like Wyatt was never that good / deserving of going over on Cena anyway so you hardly expected it... (eg much like the examples I gave above, Barret, Ziggler, ADR and even Lesnar when I gave those guys as names Cena has buried in the past)
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You then tried making out to me like you hadn't said it. Unless you're just being blind.

Regards your point about people changing their mind in 3 months I'll be happy to make a wager with you if you like, since it's that bonkers a statement.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Kurt Angle vs. Undertaker at No Way Out 2006(?) is still to this day one of the best matches I've ever seen - a incredible straight wrestling affair that went nearly 30 minutes - and was miles better then anything that happened at Mania the following month.
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Yep, that was brilliant. The tombstone reversals were great from Angle. The mania match was the triple threat wasn't it? With Mysterio ffs:lol:
 
Zarlak said:
Regards your point about people changing their mind in 3 months I'll be happy to make a wager with you if you like, since it's that bonkers a statement.
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No probs in taking up that wager......

Problem is (as you can see), people have different definitions of buried... Different names have been thrown around lately as to whom has buried whom etc or if they had at all... All vary!
 
Cantonarightboot said:
How am I trolling? its expressing an opinion... Far as Im concerned I am being logical. I've given reasons for why I think like this, provided links and thats where I stand on the matter!

Just because it doesn't appeal to other people opinions doesn't make it trolling!

I have said no more on the matter until Money May decided to bring it up again... In few months time it'll probably be a case of people back tracking and saying stuff like Wyatt was never that good / deserving of going over on Cena anyway so you hardly expected it... (eg much like the examples I gave above, Barret, Ziggler, ADR and even Lesnar when I gave those guys as names Cena has buried in the past)
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Barrett is the current intercontinental champion, Lesnor just ended the undertakers streak at wrestlemania, ADR contracts is due to expire and he was given hundreds of chances to get over as both a heel and a face but failed and ziggler has failed to fully fulfill his anazing potential so far, none of this is Cenas fault.
 
Ziggler has suffered from concussions and for mouthing off backstage. Nothing to do with Cena.
 
rolandofgilead said:
Barrett is the current intercontinental champion, Lesnor just ended the undertakers streak at wrestlemania, ADR contracts is due to expire and he was given hundreds of chances to get over as both a heel and a face but failed and ziggler has failed to fully fulfill his anazing potential so far, none of this is Cenas fault.
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See Zarlak :lol: all give excuse that aren't cena's fault...

When Nexus Debuted it was considered a great moment, the completely took over the show, destroyed the ring area etc and people really stood up and took notice! Barret was looking like a threat and only a few months later Cena had them all buried in one clean sweap! Look how long it took Barrett to recover since this angle with Cena all those years ago! He has gone through numerous character changes to try find something that works again... only now after about 3-4 years is he on the rise again!

Lesnar signed back up, branded an unstoppable "beast"... Less than a month later he is beaten by Cena in his first full match! A Freaking UFC champion returns and is beaten after I think it was one or two AA? (Could be wrong on that though)

ADR's contract wasn't expering at the time when he was in the feud with Cena.. yeah he was a bit of a bore and still is...but he put on some decent matches now and again.

Cena Literally took a dump on Ziggler...by having him covered in manure...Not Once, but twice!! Also if you bothered to read the Bleacher report link I put up earlier it gives more info on how he buried him as well...Instances like Zig knocking the snot out of him for 15mins, hitting 3 zig zags on him and then he jumps up superman style and then hits one AA and its lights out!!

More recently, Ziggler said something the board didn't like last year in or around Summer Slam and that has been his demise ever since! That is his own fault alright sure...
 
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Cantonarightboot said:
No probs in taking up that wager......

Problem is (as you can see), people have different definitions of buried... Different names have been thrown around lately as to whom has buried whom etc or if they had at all... All vary!
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Nah there's only one definition of buried, as evidenced by everyone here telling you that's not what buried means. Just ridiculous people applying it to situations that it doesn't apply to because it's their favourite thing to say when someone loses a match.

:lol:
 
No worries Zarlak... here's an interview recently of two genuine legends, Jericho and Edge! If you think I'm blowing it out of me ar$e or talking bonkers or whatever, please feel free to tell Edge and Jericho the same too then...

Go to about 2:00 on wards... Both state Cena himself admitted he made a huge mistake and that Barrett was hot property at the time and buried the guy!! Two stand up guys that are well respected in the business stating Cena said post match he made a mistake with the out come!

 
Leroy The Red said:
You're all such drama queens, that defeat doesn't mean that's it for Sandow, he's been on a losing streak anyway, maybe the idea is that losing to a one armed man gives him a kick on, more focus.
The reason why the World Heavyweight title became so devalued was because it was being won repeatedly by MITB winners with little momentum or credibility (Ziggler, Swagger) it was all out of the blue. The interest was never going to be sustained hence why after the initial buzz after Zigglers title win people stopped giving a shit. Why pointlessly do it again with Sandow? and it would make non sense for Sandow to go after Cena and not cash it in instantly.

Ironically barely no mention from anyone of the worse thing on RAW, bloody Big Show being inserted into the title picture ahead of Bryan and CM Punk. What the actual feck? So in this face of RAW thing, its actually the Big Show who is going to be chosen as "the face". I suppose the crowd seem well into it but they're also well into Bryan and Punk. Then again at least if the Big Show gets focus now he won't be near the title picture come Wrestlemania season.
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:lol::lol: Reading cantona's posts reminded me of this.
 
Cantonarightboot said:
No worries Zarlak... here's an interview recently of two genuine legends, Jericho and Edge! If you think I'm blowing it out of me ar$e or talking bonkers or whatever, please feel free to tell Edge and Jericho the same too then...

Go to about 2:00 on wards... Both state Cena himself admitted he made a huge mistake and that Barrett was hot property at the time and buried the guy!! Two stand up guys that are well respected in the business stating Cena said post match he made a mistake with the out come!

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Doesn't mean shit. Jim Ross regularly debunks a lot of the statements that the IWC make and he's the most knowledgeable guy in the entire industry.
 
Zarlak said:
Doesn't mean shit. Jim Ross regularly debunks a lot of the statements that the IWC make and he's the most knowledgeable guy in the entire industry.
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Sorry I'm not really following your point here, IWC? JR? Wasn't he retired by that stage?

Edge and Jericho are hardly the IWC! :lol:

In that podcast they call themselves stubborn asses and give an example of where they went wrong and then also when Cena got it really wrong!

I can't see how you or anyone for that matter can argue with two guys who we're in that match, in the business at the time and are clearly in the know as to what happened... and simply state their opinions mean shit? :rolleyes:

If I am taking you post the wrong way fair enough but for me thats pretty damning evidence in that podcast!
 
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Cantonarightboot said:
Sorry I'm not really following your point here, IWC? JR? Wasn't he retired by that stage?

Edge and Jericho are hardly the IWC! :lol:

In that podcast they call themselves stubborn asses and give an example of where they went wrong and then also when Cena got it really wrong!

I can't see how you or anyone for that matter can argue with two guys who we're in that match, in the business at the time and are clearly in the know as to what happened... and simply state their opinions mean shit? :rolleyes:

If I am taking you post wrong fair enough but for me thats pretty damning evidence in that podcast!
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I wasn't saying that Edge and Jericho are the IWC, it was just an example of how the most knowledgeable guy in the business usually says the opposite of what people say about wrestlers and wrestling. Giving an example of where @Cina got it wrong doesn't equate to him burying every talent he ever worked with. You've gone from saying that he buried Bray which he hasn't, to saying that he buried everyone he's ever worked with which he hasn't, to saying that Jericho and Edge say he got it wrong with Barrett, who was never buried. Who had a great programme with Orton before his injury. Who got over with his new gimmick and is now champion.

Buried means losing every single match to mid to low carders. It means getting squashed in 10 seconds to new debuters and then not being seen on TV for 6 months until the next time you get beaten after being somewhat relevant in the past. It means never getting any TV time, it doesn't in any way shape or form mean working on TV with the top stars of the company on every episode of Monday night RAW all year and competing in the main events of PPVs. That's pretty much the opposite of burial.

The word 'buried' applies to pretty much nobody in the WWE. It applies to a select few people, but the hardcore IWC pretend it applies to everybody because otherwise it wouldn't be fun to throw around like it's the new fashion when somebody you want to win doesn't win.

My statement that it doesn't mean shit is because the fact that they were wrestlers doesn't de facto mean they know anything. You should take what they said on its individual merits and not just take it purely because they're respected wrestlers and thus must of course be right.
 
Zarlak said:
I wasn't saying that Edge and Jericho are the IWC, it was just an example of how the most knowledgeable guy in the business usually says the opposite of what people say about wrestlers and wrestling. Giving an example of where @Cina got it wrong doesn't equate to him burying every talent he ever worked with. You've gone from saying that he buried Bray which he hasn't, to saying that he buried everyone he's ever worked with which he hasn't, to saying that Jericho and Edge say he got it wrong with Barrett, who was never buried. Who had a great programme with Orton before his injury. Who got over with his new gimmick and is now champion.

My statement that it doesn't mean shit is because the fact that they were wrestlers doesn't de facto mean they know anything. You should take what they said on its individual merits and not just take it purely because they're respected wrestlers and thus must of course be right.
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Ok, switch stance here then... JR the most knowlegable guy in the business (your words, Id agree btw)....

http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2014/0601/576588/jim-ross-blogs-on-his-wwe-payback-predictions/

Jr's blog pre Payback PPV! He states (same as I have) that Wyatt needed the win more than Cena...

No disrespect to you or anyone else's opinion here but I think I'll take the word of respected people in the business and its not like their just any old jobber who got back stage and was a curtain jerker...but two world champions who are giving insider knowledge and in the know... like the example above, if they state he buried Barrett, I'll take them at their word!
 
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Anybody else think Andy Carroll looks like Bo Dallas?
 
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