Television Tho Prop Grops Throps

phelans shorts said:
Look back at the vast majority of Taker's career and there is a hell of a lot of dross in there, moreso than most guys would get away with. Could that be the character driven style holding him back? It could well be. I hate nothing more than watching old Taker matches, they always disappoint me.

I'm not saying that Taker isn't an above average worker, I'm saying this notion that he's one of the greats is just wrong.
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I'd have him as one of the greats. Is he as good of a wrestler as Bret, Angle, HBK, Benoit? No but for someone his size, he's done quite well. Him and Bam Bam are two of the best big man workers in wrestling history. Maybe I'm missing another big worker in there but I can't see many better than him.

Undertaker was fed the likes of Giant Gonzalez, King Kong Bundy, Yokozuna - freaks who were limited in the ring, those matches apart from one of the Yoko matches were god awful, but who could do better? He was fed Khali, he was given freak after freak in the 90's.

If we look at his matches against Angle, Mankind, Austin, HBK even the Sid Vicious match at WM13 wasn't bad even if Sid shit himself. His matches against Kane were good, HHH feud even with the buried alive awful gimmick, he has worked in all sort of gimmick matches and has done a very good job with them. The gimmick is larger than his ability but I think you're discrediting him far too much.
 
ZDwyr said:
I think he is incredible on the mic. I think you have undersold him a bit there.
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He can be clever, he can get crowds into his favor very easily...has a knack for it... quite savy...be nice to see some more intensity in his mic work from time to time... instead of joking and being cheesy! if you notice, with this wyatt feud its actually wyatt carrying it with regard to time on the mic... i'd argue wyatt is probably better than cena already on the mic...
 
ZDwyr said:
I think he is incredible on the mic. I think you have undersold him a bit there.
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I think Cena's mic skills are pretty corny actually. Maybe its the character though, because he was very good when he was doing the rapper gimmick.
 
Cantonarightboot said:
He can be clever, he can get crowds into his favor very easily...has a knack for it... quite savy...be nice to see some more intensity in his mic work from time to time... instead of joking and being cheesy! if you notice, with this wyatt feud its actually wyatt carrying it with regard to time on the mic... i'd argue wyatt is probably better than cena already on the mic...
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:lol: You're just focusing on certain parts of him and applying it to everything. Cena shows intensity on the mic so so so so so many times. He ends up screaming into it. You're doing what so many Cena bashers do which is apply something they saw a couple of times to everything he's ever done.
 
Earthquake said:
When he wants to be, he's absolutely fantastic on the mic, phones it in sometimes, but they all do.
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Yeah I should have clarified. He can be corny. But when he needs to be serious, and needs to use it. He can be amazing.

Lay said:
I think Cena's mic skills are pretty corny actually. Maybe its the character though, because he was very good when he was doing the rapper gimmick.
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Yeah he can be corny. That's his knock. When he needs to turn it on he can. He has great range. His rapper gimmick showed that. Bray doesn't have that range yet. IMO anyway.
 
This is an enjoyable debate. I haven't debated wrestling in years. :D
 
Lay said:
This is an enjoyable debate. I haven't debated wrestling in years. :D
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Neither actually. I've enjoyed it! My interest in it has been waning a little lately. I never find time to watch it. Hopefully it'll pick back up again soon.
 
Zarlak said:
:lol: You're just focusing on certain parts of him and applying it to everything. Cena shows intensity on the mic so so so so so many times. He ends up screaming into it. You're doing what so many Cena bashers do which is apply something they saw a couple of times to everything he's ever done.
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I know it sounds like I am but seriously think about it... he has shown little to no real anger/ frustration or intensity towards Wyatt since the feud started... just jokes around or acts sad (which I can understand to an extent given the nature of the story line we've been given)...

If you think about it honestly... Cena is good at many things but great at nothing I feel... he clearly plays the politics in WWE better than any other FT active wrestler there..

In Ring ability: there is a looooooooooooooooong list of wrestlers far better than he
Mic Work: again there are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar better people on the mic than him over the years
Character: Rapper gimmick was good, but than they hammed it up, it was ridic , now its just boring, everyone is sick of the same routine.



So that is why I am tired of him and I appear to hate the guy....
 
Lay said:
This is an enjoyable debate. I haven't debated wrestling in years. :D
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sure is, sorry to anyone I have annoyed on here... ive grown up on it, honestly one of my first memories was savage v steamboat at WM3!! Insane to think that but its true!

Great to talk to other fans of WWE... Its not ike the Attitude era these days, back then it was genuinely cool to watch it, if you didnt you were outta the loop sort of speak!
 
Cantonarightboot said:
I know it sounds like I am but seriously think about it... he has shown little to no real anger/ frustration or intensity towards Wyatt since the feud started... just jokes around or acts sad (which I can understand to an extent given the nature of the story line we've been given)...

If you think about it honestly... Cena is good at many things but great at nothing I feel... he clearly plays the politics in WWE better than any other FT active wrestler there..

In Ring ability: there is a looooooooooooooooong list of wrestlers far better than he
Mic Work: again there are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar better people on the mic than him over the years
Character: Rapper gimmick was good, but than they hammed it up, it was ridic , now its just boring, everyone is sick of the same routine.



So that is why I am tired of him and I appear to hate the guy....
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There is something Cena has that very few others have. He has an intense love and passion for the business. He would NEVER walk out like Punk did. He has an incredible work ethic too. He has the desire that few can match. Combine that with his good in-ring work, his great mic skills, and a character that appeals to a large majority of the audience and you have the complete "guy" that WWE want to build a company around. How many others have what he has now? None.
 
Cantonarightboot said:
He can be clever, he can get crowds into his favor very easily...has a knack for it... quite savy...be nice to see some more intensity in his mic work from time to time... instead of joking and being cheesy! if you notice, with this wyatt feud its actually wyatt carrying it with regard to time on the mic... i'd argue wyatt is probably better than cena already on the mic...
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I'll give you this, but Bray has something very special in his mic work. To think the guy is 26 and can talk as comfortably as he does and with such purpose is incredible. The guy was clearly born to play this kind of role.

As for his brother, he's nailed the art of the really awkward heel who thinks he's a babyface promo. Those Rotunda's certainly have a gift.
 
ZDwyr said:
There is something Cena has that very few others have. He has an intense love and passion for the business. He would NEVER walk out like Punk did. He has an incredible work ethic too. He has the desire that few can match. Combine that with his good in-ring work, his great mic skills, and a character that appeals to a large majority of the audience and you have the complete "guy" that WWE want to build a company around. How many others have what he has now? None.
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thats true, I respect him for that...he has dabbled in movies (piss poor as they are), made millions and probably doesnt need the business anymore..the business probably needs him moreso...

I know the sum of the parts make puts him where he is in the company, but that is the WWE fault as well.... the over done it with him and the company is playing catch up...I think they realised it in recent years to ease up on him and push new stars... They've pushed Bryan now and he is arguably the main attraction now? Theres a lot of new talent in there now and maybe in a years time we might see a ressurgance of many stars again... the shield, wyatts, cesaro and bryan are the future it seems!
 
phelans shorts said:
I'll give you this, but Bray has something very special in his mic work. To think the guy is 26 and can talk as comfortably as he does and with such purpose is incredible. The guy was clearly born to play this kind of role.

As for his brother, he's nailed the art of the really awkward heel who thinks he's a babyface promo. Those Rotunda's certainly have a gift.
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Yeah, I just hope he can grow with the character now... wondering where he can go with it and how it developes ( Bo I mean now).... Bray is seriously gifted on the mic and he has done something really special with that character... we've seen attempts in the past from WWE doing the Cape Fear type guy before and it fell flat on its face... Delighted how they've pushed it so far...

BTW folks... how serious are these Financial issues being reported in the last week? seeing all kinds of figures being thrown around... lost half his forture to other sites saying he still has $750m and its not a worry....
 
The financial reports are worrying, losing $350m in a day wasn't it?

I have a question, as a businessman is Vince a failure outside of wrestling?
 
Lay said:
The financial reports are worrying, losing $350m in a day wasn't it?

I have a question, as a businessman is Vince a failure outside of wrestling?
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Some amount of money, but the thing is...if he still has $750m it can't be that serious..... ? not like he is looking for lose change down the back ofthe sofa :lol:

Good question, he is a helluva business man...but he has made serious errors in judgement outside wrestling... xfl anyone??
 
Cantonarightboot said:
Yeah, I just hope he can grow with the character now... wondering where he can go with it and how it developes ( Bo I mean now).... Bray is seriously gifted on the mic and he has done something really special with that character... we've seen attempts in the past from WWE doing the Cape Fear type guy before and it fell flat on its face... Delighted how they've pushed it so far...
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On Bo there's a few ways they can go about it. He's so incredibly young that should worst come to the worst they can send him back down and change his look/character/name and he's still got a hell of a shot at a very notable career.

BTW folks... how serious are these Financial issues being reported in the last week? seeing all kinds of figures being thrown around... lost half his forture to other sites saying he still has $750m and its not a worry....
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The numbers were huge, but what's important to note is that the numbers that they made between the network going live and Wrestlemania were even bigger, stock price is still up three dollars a share on what they were at January 1st. Basically, for this calender year he's still in the green.

I expect to see a senior head roll over this to appease shareholders, probably Barrios, and it'll all be forgotten by the time of Money in the Bank.
 
The Network was never going to be a hit off the bat in all honesty. Zero chance. It'd make money going forward, once people realize how easy it is to set up via anything to your TV.

I'd get it, and keep it.....if they just threw like at least the whole WWE back catalogue on there, until that happens, count me out. I can still get by with mediocre streaming ppvs. Update it weekly with everything else they have and new shows/wwe history docs.
 
Cantonarightboot said:
I know it sounds like I am but seriously think about it... he has shown little to no real anger/ frustration or intensity towards Wyatt since the feud started... just jokes around or acts sad (which I can understand to an extent given the nature of the story line we've been given)...

If you think about it honestly... Cena is good at many things but great at nothing I feel... he clearly plays the politics in WWE better than any other FT active wrestler there..

In Ring ability: there is a looooooooooooooooong list of wrestlers far better than he
Mic Work: again there are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar better people on the mic than him over the years
Character: Rapper gimmick was good, but than they hammed it up, it was ridic , now its just boring, everyone is sick of the same routine.



So that is why I am tired of him and I appear to hate the guy....
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I can recollect him joking with the Wyatts like, twice. After that he's appeared dead serious, to the point of looking genuinely scared and selling the Wyatts many times over which he's been lauded for.
 
Zen said:
The Network was never going to be a hit off the bat in all honesty. Zero chance. It'd make money going forward, once people realize how easy it is to set up via anything to your TV.

I'd get it, and keep it.....if they just threw like at least the whole WWE back catalogue on there, until that happens, count me out. I can still get by with mediocre streaming ppvs. Update it weekly with everything else they have and new shows/wwe history docs.
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The WWE network has been a resounding success so far. They have over 600,000 subscribers, and most of the content isn't even on there yet. When the content goes on there and they release it world wide they will easily, easily hit the 1m subscriber mark that they are hoping for. People seem to be saying it's not a success because they don't have the 1m subscribers they want, but it's coming. That's like saying Van Gaal has been a failure because he hasn't signed any players yet.

News outlets cry about it like it's their job to do, meanwhile investors, businessmen and other businesses say it's revolutionary.
 
Lay said:
The financial reports are worrying, losing $350m in a day wasn't it?

I have a question, as a businessman is Vince a failure outside of wrestling?
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The only reason they lost that money is because Wall Street weren't happy that they'd been promised a TV deal worth double the old one which then only went up by 25%. That money will be regained over time. Stock always goes down when Wall Street gets pissed off.
 
phelans shorts said:
On Bo there's a few ways they can go about it. He's so incredibly young that should worst come to the worst they can send him back down and change his look/character/name and he's still got a hell of a shot at a very notable career.



The numbers were huge, but what's important to note is that the numbers that they made between the network going live and Wrestlemania were even bigger, stock price is still up three dollars a share on what they were at January 1st. Basically, for this calender year he's still in the green.

I expect to see a senior head roll over this to appease shareholders, probably Barrios, and it'll all be forgotten by the time of Money in the Bank.
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Irony!! hahaha
 
Zarlak said:
The WWE network has been a resounding success so far. They have over 600,000 subscribers, and most of the content isn't even on there yet. When the content goes on there and they release it world wide they will easily, easily hit the 1m subscriber mark that they are hoping for. People seem to be saying it's not a success because they don't have the 1m subscribers they want, but it's coming. That's like saying Van Gaal has been a failure because he hasn't signed any players yet.

News outlets cry about it like it's their job to do, meanwhile investors, businessmen and other businesses say it's revolutionary.
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Well, that's only on the assumption that the majority of people worldwide that will buy it haven't already, which is a very big assumption.
 
phelans shorts said:
Well, that's only on the assumption that the majority of people worldwide that will buy it haven't already, which is a very big assumption.
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That's a fair point, but your average joe doesn't know how to use a VPN. Sure loads do, but I'll bet those figures go up when it's released worldwide. Add to that people saying they'll get it when the rest of the catalog is there... I guess we have to just wait and see.
 
The Network is a great idea!! WWE has a ridiculous library of footage they now own between WWWF, NWA, AWA, WCW, ECW,WWF/E footage also...they've such a large fan base there is no way this can fail now... They just need to make it available in Europe and Asia and they will easily hit the 1million mark, probably get well past that in a year or two...

This financial news this week is probably a small hiccup and in a few years will be forgotten about...
 
Yeah I know 6 wrestling fans, my age give or take, who all want it....and don't have it since well they aren't internet savvy. So no it's not a big assumption at all really. I'd say they've barely hit 5% of their international audience with VPN's.....I'd probably go like 2%
 
Now and again my housemates and I have watched old PPV's on Youtube during our drinking nights. If WWE Network means we can access pretty much anything like this at decent quality then I can see us subscribing. Would be great just to watch old Attitude Era PPV's every now and again. Even better, watch some WCW stuff that would be new to us.
 
Woodzy said:
Now and again my housemates and I have watched old PPV's on Youtube during our drinking nights. If WWE Network means we can access pretty much anything like this at decent quality then I can see us subscribing. Would be great just to watch old Attitude Era PPV's every now and again. Even better, watch some WCW stuff that would be new to us.
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agree, id love to have access to the library they have! Apparently there is still loads more to be added... cant be having a few beers and watching some of the AE stuff or even ruthless agression era!!
 
Oh there is a load missing that will end up on there, but with older shows and in particular Nitro's, Thunder's, Hardcore TV there is a load of copyright infringement on the tapes, especially ECW.

In fact, they've got Joey Styles working non-stop re-recording his commentary so the music ECW used doesn't go on the network.

That's before you get into the other companies tapes they've bought and are going to have to remove advertising and the likes from, it'll be a LONG process getting it filled up.
 
phelans shorts said:
Oh there is a load missing that will end up on there, but with older shows and in particular Nitro's, Thunder's, Hardcore TV there is a load of copyright infringement on the tapes, especially ECW.

In fact, they've got Joey Styles working non-stop re-recording his commentary so the music ECW used doesn't go on the network.

That's before you get into the other companies tapes they've bought and are going to have to remove advertising and the likes from, it'll be a LONG process getting it filled up.
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I heard about Joey Styles doing that alright, thought it was a joke at first :lol:

Seems everyone on here has strong opinions on who was / is the greatest of all time in WWE/F... Thinking of running a vote to see for all the WWE fans on here to gauge who is considered to be the greatest of all time!

Working on a format and I can create a seperate thread withn the Entertainment section...
 
I'd advise against doing it in a separate thread. Simply because it's almost inevitable some of the anti-wrestling folk will try to hijack it.
 
Minkaro said:
I'd advise against doing it in a separate thread. Simply because it's almost inevitable some of the anti-wrestling folk will try to hijack it.
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well that is bit unfair, there are multiple threads for xbox or ps4, theres a few threads on Game of Thrones too...to name some off the top of my head...

I'll see what I can do anyways :)
 
Cantonarightboot said:
over rated for me! Just WWE hyping them up, even on those clips I posted the announce team jump in to save his ass to cover the fact he botches his moves!!
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Cena V Punk at Money in the Bank 2011 was a great match. Cena even though I hate his character can put up great matches when he is booked correctly. Most of his matches suck because he is booked as an all conquering hero who can overcome all odds, whilst his opponents are booked like Mojo Jojo in the Power Puff Girls. For example he once took a 20 minute beatdown by Miz and Alex Riley in a I Quit Match then whipped Miz with a belt for 10 seconds and won. His mic work has been bland since he stopped rapping. From time to time he can raise his level but it's nothing to write home about. Last year he got killed by Rocky on the mic. "Everything Cena has done, The Rock has done it too and done it better" thats how you cut a promo.
 
mic.m said:
Cena V Punk at Money in the Bank 2011 was a great match. Cena even though I hate his character can put up great matches when he is booked correctly. Most of his matches suck because he is booked as an all conquering hero who can overcome all odds, whilst his opponents are booked like Mojo Jojo in the Power Puff Girls. For example he once took a 20 minute beatdown by Miz and Alex Riley in a I Quit Match then whipped Miz with a belt for 10 seconds and won. His mic work has been bland since he stopped rapping. From time to time he can raise his level but it's nothing to write home about. Last year he got killed by Rocky on the mic. "Everything Cena has done, The Rock has done it too and done it better" thats how you cut a promo.
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I disagree, vigorously. The Rock is great at jokes and catchphrases, other than that Cena has him covered on the mic.
 
mic.m said:
Cena V Punk at Money in the Bank 2011 was a great match. Cena even though I hate his character can put up great matches when he is booked correctly. Most of his matches suck because he is booked as an all conquering hero who can overcome all odds, whilst his opponents are booked like Mojo Jojo in the Power Puff Girls. For example he once took a 20 minute beatdown by Miz and Alex Riley in a I Quit Match then whipped Miz with a belt for 10 seconds and won. His mic work has been bland since he stopped rapping. From time to time he can raise his level but it's nothing to write home about. Last year he got killed by Rocky on the mic. "Everything Cena has done, The Rock has done it too and done it better" thats how you cut a promo.
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For me he ranks waaaaaaaaaaay down the list on technical ability, there are many others ahead of him... Michaels, Taker, Austin, Angle, Benoit... His standing in the company is due to kids buying into the gimmick, perfect for the PG era... telling kids never to give up.... His mic work is ok at time, sometimes good...but again, he ranks behind many others...Jake Roberts, Foley, Austin, Rock....

He is this generations Hogan who was awful in almost every aspect...

Hogan and Cena do one thing better than most in the business...that is politics within WWE!! They play the game very well... With Cena's associaton with Make A Wish charities (which he is to be comended for) he will forever be the golden goose regardless of everything else he does....
 
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