On the physio table
Thiago Alc*ntara | Retires
- Thread starter horsechoker
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Was a flop for us. But mostly because Van Gaal had no place for him in our team. Had some good games at cb though.
Sadly, he now belongs more into the thread with the bad guy 11.
Why what’s he been doing?!
He's a Russian asset and actually sanctioned by Ukraine.
You know that Schweinsteiger played for you, right?
Do agree that Schweinsteiger is a bit overrated on here. few others who gets such a free pass on what was a very short peak.
A poor man's Effenberg.
A poor man's Effenberg.
Schweinsteiger had plenty skills to control a game and he was doing that very well from 2009-2014 when he was allowed to play in midfield, and was mostly fit. It's not just about Bayern as well, he was playing an even higher level for Germany in the same role. What convinces me of his ability even more was that in the 2010 semi-final agaisnt Spain, he was the only one in our midfield who could hold his own against that monsterous Spain team. You then look at his performances overall in 2010 and 2014, including an almost MOTM performance against Argentina, there's a reason he is almost universally rated as a fantastic midfielder.
Slander against Kimmich is strange and seems to be coming since Tuchel has become a manager and publically started calling him out, regardless of his performances. Before that, Kimmich was viewed as one of the best midfielders in the world, let alone at Bayern. He is a top class midfielder who has worked in different systems, Bayern were a very strong side with him and Goretzka in midfield not too long ago and if anything it's been Goretzka's drop in form following injuries that has destablized the midfield.
No doubt that Thiago had the most talent, but he never had the strongest mentality to play consistently in the biggest games, that was his weakness while at Bayern.
I like it. The company there is nice and knows a lot about football.
The only person on that hill with you is @Zehner, we're fine down here
100% agree on every point made.
And the Kimmich criticism isn‘t sth new that came up since Tuchel took over (he’s only blunt enough to hint at it) but for quite some time we see him demanding that central position but have yet to see him filling that commanding, strategic role satisfyingly - not just at Bayern but also in the NT.Lahm was a better CM the one or two season(s) he was played there by Pep.
Has Thiago ever played 5 games in a row since leaving us for Pool?
Sad end to the best midfielder of his generation’s career in England.
What's with the title? Why is he a c*nt?
I think that is a fair assessment.
I'm also a very big fan of Thiago and have rarely seen a player with such technical ability. He does things on the ball that are fantastic. But he has been too inconsistent and has been underwhelming in some bigger games, making less talented players a more important part of Bayern Munich's recent history.
Back when he was playing football and struggled to keep up with the pace of premier league he made countless cynical fouls often somehow avoiding yellow cards
I mean I know it's fun to mock him with all his injuries lately, and struggling at times when on the pitch, but didn't have a very good season last time he was fully fit, when Liverpool where chasing the quardruple?
Where did he rank amongst Liverpool most important players that season?
Where did he rank amongst Liverpool most important players that season?
His playing for FC c*nts may have something to do with it
Schweinsteiger had plenty skills to control a game and he was doing that very well from 2009-2014 when he was allowed to play in midfield, and was mostly fit. It's not just about Bayern as well, he was playing an even higher level for Germany in the same role. What convinces me of his ability even more was that in the 2010 semi-final agaisnt Spain, he was the only one in our midfield who could hold his own against that monsterous Spain team. You then look at his performances overall in 2010 and 2014, including an almost MOTM performance against Argentina, there's a reason he is almost universally rated as a fantastic midfielder.
Slander against Kimmich is strange and seems to be coming since Tuchel has become a manager and publically started calling him out, regardless of his performances. Before that, Kimmich was viewed as one of the best midfielders in the world, let alone at Bayern. He is a top class midfielder who has worked in different systems, Bayern were a very strong side with him and Goretzka in midfield not too long ago and if anything it's been Goretzka's drop in form following injuries that has destablized the midfield.
No doubt that Thiago had the most talent, but he never had the strongest mentality to play consistently in the biggest games, that was his weakness while at Bayern.
The only person on that hill with you is @Zehner, we're fine down here
There should be more people on our hill, though
When Thiago left Bayern, most people said that Kimmich was the better midfielder - some even said as much about fecking Goretzka. I found that notion absolutely ridiculous and more and more Bayern fans have now realized that Kimmich isn't all that and long for a CM like Thiago. Thing is, most football fans have a "spectacle bias". They want to see big plays like goals, assists, flying tackles, etc. but that is rarely effective. Thiago made the whole team better and unfortunately for Bayern, many only realized it when he was gone - same goes for Kroos. That Thiago is amongst the technically most gifted players of the past few generations is undeniable but he also had world class decision making, awareness, tactical discipline, composure and pressing. When fit he was up there with the very best on his position. Modric, Kroos, Xavi, you name it. Unfortunately, he rarely managed to stay healthy for a sustained period of time. I think the CL final against PSG was representive for his time at Bayern. He was easily the best player on the pitch yet he rarely gets credit for it.
I was so happy when he left Bayern so I could finally enjoy him and look how that turned out
There should be more people on our hill, though
That Thiago is amongst the technically most gifted players of the past few generations is undeniable but he also had world class decision making, awareness, tactical discipline, composure and pressing. When fit he was up there with the very best on his position. Modric, Kroos, Xavi, you name it. Unfortunately, he rarely managed to stay healthy for a sustained period of time. I think the CL final against PSG was representive for his time at Bayern. He was easily the best player on the pitch yet he rarely gets credit for it.
I was so happy when he left Bayern so I could finally enjoy him and look how that turned out
Bayern were hardly winning the UCL or reaching finals every year while Thiago was there. And it's not as if Bayern struggled when he left, they breezed through the group stages of the UCL in 20-21 but Not having Lewandowski in against PSG was the main reason they lost the tie. They dominated the game otherwise but couldn't finish chances. The next year was a disappointment, losing to Villarreal, but then again Bayern had bad performances v Liverpool and A. Madrid with Thiago there as well, so again it's not to say they were always doing great.
You can point to Bayern barely winning the league last season, but then they barely won in 18/19 with Thiago fully fit as well. Again, he was a really good player, but his absence is not the reason for Bayern's struggles. I would point to Goretzka's loss of form being more key in midfield. Kimmich is more attack minded that Thiago, but that worked fine as long as Goretzka was fit enough to cover the space left by Kimmich moving forward. Essentially similar to how Germany played with Schweinsteiger and Khedira and the double pivot. That is becoming more of an issue now with Goretzka not being able to track back as much.
This is why Bayern want a number 6 not to replace to Kimmich but to play alongside him and give Kimmich more free reign to move forward as his ability to create chances with passes from deep is exceptional. This is reflected in stats with Kimmich scoring very high compared to his peers in stats such as creating chances from open play, but then lacks a bit in defensive actions when compared to Thiago, Rodri, Rice and Casemiro for example.
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Was a very good midfielder on his day. For a period of 2-3 years he was comfortably in the top 10 of CM in Europe.
Ah, the mythical Self-Fellatio Hill! I've read about it in books, yes yes.The only person on that hill with you is @Zehner, we're fine down here
In the three years since Thiago left, Bayern hasn't finished above 80 points once and their 71 points last season made them the weakest champion since 09/10. During his 7 years at Bayern, they finished below 80 only twice and once over 90. The shift from control oriented midfielders such as Schweinsteiger, Martinez, Xabi A., Thiago and Kroos towards more direct and physical midfielders like Goretzka, Gravenberch and Laimer is sort of representative of the decline Bayern went through.
Kimmich is a bit of a hybrid of those types because he's got all the tools required but also developed a tendency to play hero ball and more so with every year that passed after Guardiola left. Long shots, forcing through balls, leaving his position because he wants to be at the center of everything, you name it. Thing is, even if he cuts this from his game again, he's still inferior to Thiago since the only disciplines in which Kimmich might be better than him with lots of goodwill are shooting and passing. And the latter only if you limit it to direct chance creation. In contrast, Thiago is indefinitely more pressing resistant, he is defensively better, he is less error prone, he is more disciplined tactically, he is technically far superior and so on.
Which is no shame as Thiago was amongst the very best in his position and is somehow severely underrated. Kimmich is still a world class CM when he focus on doing what he's supposed to do. But Thiago is out of his reach.
Really? You never struck me as a person who'd touch a book even with a ten-foot pole.
That famed German wit. Brutal. In pieces.
I'm not sure why you're giving Thiago all the credit for Bayern overall having a better squad at that time. Thiago was injured for a lot during his time at Bayern as well, he started over 20 games in the BL only once during his time there. That Bayern team had peak Boateng, Hummels, Neuer, Muller, Alaba, Vidal and Kimmich at RB who is better than any RB Bayern have had since he moved to CM. They were just a better team overall.
I don't think Bayern have gone into being more physical. Alongside the midfielders you mentioned were also Tolisso, Gustavo, a younger Goretzka and Vidal, plus I would put Martinez as a physical midfielder since he was a DM. It's always been a mix of technically gifted midfielders with physical grit. Right now there is definitely a gap in midfield because only Kimmich can play the DLP role while Laimer, Goretzka are more box to box. Musiala has also been tried deeper last season.
Kimmich may play more hero ball but it's not as if he's careless with the ball, his pass competition rate is pretty much the same as Thiago. Kimmich would average around 89-90% while Thiago is 91-92%. And that 'hero ball' ends up creating more chances for Bayern to score. Yes, it can leave Bayern more open at the back but that is where it was working with Goretzka initially because he could stay back, and why he is also important in this.
Thiago was certainly better defensively but was worse offensively. Kimmich created more on offense while not showing deficits in control. In the end, midfield is always a partnership and if one doesn't perform at his best then the system suffers.
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I agree they were a much better team with or without Thiago
I didn't mean to attribute the decline to him and him alone. There are much more factors to this but Thiago leaving without replacement is definitely one of them. One way or another, there is definitely a shift from technical to physical focus observable in the squad management at Bayern. It began with the Kovac appointment but extended beyond it. They sort of "undo" the overarching philosophy that van Gaal initiated towards a typically German style, sort of like the RB franchise. Flick and Nagelsmann both were very direct and aggressive coaches, not so much about control or technical qualities. They rather followed the idea that losses of possession weren't bad because it allowed the team to press and force transitions again. And that also reflects in the transfer politics. Despite playing enormous sums for CBs, they don't have any who excell in the build up like Boateng, Hummels and Badstuber did.
But Thiago papered over those cracks in his last seasons at Bayern together with Kimmich. I also think Kimmich has declined since then, by the way. He's still a very good midfielder but passing accuracy isn't the be all end all stat. Sometimes players have 90% accuracy but the 10% include some key situations in which they were wasteful. Thiago on the other hand was absolutely incredible at ball progression, playing even the technically most demanding line breaking passes with almost flawless consistency and being able to absorb any pressure the opponent could put on Bayern.
Personally, I think Kimmich should play as an inverted fullback or the "free role" as Nagelsmann described it. It would fit his instinctive decision making much better and would mean that he his positional excursions don't come back to bite you as much.
I thought that was very evident here. Despite being a few years younger than Carrick, Carrick was completely out outplaying him, and José refusing to play Schweinsteiger the following season was one of the few things I agreed with him on. He was awful.
As for Thiago, I definitely wanted him here in 2013 because I bought into the hype. Looking back, I don't think he was a big miss because I just haven't been impressed by him since leaving Barcelona.
Stop blaming me for your inadequaciesThat was all @Edgar Allan Pillow 's fault, the scoundrel!
Leaving Liverpool. I‘d take him back at Bayern just to marvel at his technical abilities once more.
Just to think of the amount of smoke blown up his arse after a few sideways passes when he first arrived. It's amusing when some are so determined to force a narrative that is a figment of their imagination.
True that. I will be honest - I was very worried too. But such an underwhelming tenure.
This guys should have stayed at Barca or even Munich. Had so much potential.
Leaving Liverpool. I‘d take him back at Bayern just to marvel at his technical abilities once more.
He’ll play 13 minutes of your season and look absolutely gorgeous whilst doing so before getting injured for the next 14 months. Rinse and repeat. It’s what he’s done at anfield for 3 years.
I know and I don’t care.
Can't believe we didnt pick him up from Bayern. We have been world class at signing over the hill/injury prone star players right when they start to decline. Would have joined the likes of Schweinsteiger, Falcao, Varane, Casemiro, Eriksen, Matic, Sanchez, Ronaldo, Cavani et al
We tried our best. Dithering Joel scuppered it.
I mean, he was brilliant once he got a run of games with a CDM behind him. He played only 33% of available games for Liverpool, which is quite shocking really.
I don't think he was brilliant at all. I'll remember him as a fouling machine. One of those who always managed to avoid being booked.
I don’t think so either, looked like he was running in treacle from his very first Liverpool game, far far too slow for the PL.
I remember one decent run of form in his entire time there, lasted about two months.
All in all a terrible signing. Been saying it since his first six months.
Good 5 minute spell.