The Veron Knockers!

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

Neil also probably agreed with Hansen at the time of his "Kids" comment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yet I advocate Chadwick, Mads Timm, Richardson, Davis getting more opportunity to shine, and have kept the Youth Reports going all year. You don't even know what our own youth are like.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Stuart Pearson is generally full of praise for Fergie. He rates him very highly. In his opinion tho, Veron doesn't fit in the EPL, and he thinks we play better football when it's 4-4-2.

You might not agree with him, but a lot do.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And in SAF's opinion, Verón will work in the EPL.

Who's opinion do you trust more?

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
It was a simple point, that Veron was very expensive, and you could actually buy, for example, 3 great players for that money. However you only think Zidane is great it seems. Gilberto Silva has been better and more suited to the EPL than Veron has. Davids has been a mainstay of Juventus for a long time, if that's not Great, then you've got absurd standards. Vicente I deliberately threw in since he was your own recommendation. <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

no need for the houlliers.

when some one says 'great' i think of vieria, zidane, ballack... etc etc.

the players you mentioned are not top notch, altho' David was in the past.. Vicente is POTENTIAL.. would you call potentially good player GREAT? i would not. Silva is better than average nothing more.

so, to asnwer you question.. no, we could not get THREE great players for the Veron fee.. however we could have bough two potentially very good players.. but that could have been an even bigger lottery..


another question.. which you didn't not answer:


teams that defend deep are more susceptible to a fast counter.. yet you did not explain why? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

 

[RUDDY]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Stuart Pearson is generally full of praise for Fergie. He rates him very highly. In his opinion tho, Veron doesn't fit in the EPL, and he thinks we play better football when it's 4-4-2.

You might not agree with him, but a lot do.</strong><hr></blockquote>


and he only started with his rants after the papers came out with the same kind of thing

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by RUDDY:
<strong>vincente couldnt get in the team ahead of kily

its all promise with him along with Joaquin

this is what pisses me off most about people they see a player play once hear the hype then buy into it</strong><hr></blockquote>

i think they'll make the grade...and i'd love to see them at OT, but yes its all potential..ATM.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by RUDDY:
<strong>vincente couldnt get in the team ahead of kily

its all promise with him along with Joaquin

this is what pisses me off most about people they see a player play once hear the hype then buy into it</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd rather give our kids a chance, but it was Giggzy and Weaste that recommended Vicente, which was why I referred to him. Apparently though, he's not Great, and isn't worth getting - wish they'd make their minds up.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Yet I advocate Chadwick, Mads Timm, Richardson, Davis getting more opportunity to shine, and have kept the Youth Reports going all year. You don't even know what our own youth are like.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes I do, none of them are worthy of a first team starting place, and never will be.

Are you seriously comparing them to the Giggs, Butt, Scholes, Beckham, Gillespie, Gary Neville, and Phil Neville generation?

The great things to recently come out of our youth system are Brown and O'Shea. Nothing more.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

How can i email to his show and point out my favourite stat to him? (the 2 out of 11 losses one)</strong><hr></blockquote>

mutv@mutv.com

The trouble with your stats Murt is that you are very selective.

You ignore the long unbeaten run of last year which was 4-4-2. Following a very shaky start to the season when it wasn't.

I still think there is a need to utilise both formations. Especially if the idea is to avoid being predictable.

And yesterday was our best PL game since God knows when. Of course 4-4-2 isn't going to work all the time - nothing does. But to stick rigidly to one up front would also be a mistake.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>Apparently though, he's not Great, and isn't worth getting - wish they'd make their minds up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

When have I ever said that Vicente was great?

All I have ever said is that he is a very promising young player that is still very raw.

<img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by RUDDY:
<strong>


and he only started with his rants after the papers came out with the same kind of thing</strong><hr></blockquote>


I don't think so. He said much the same at the beginning of last season.

 

[RUDDY]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


I don't think so. He said much the same at the beginning of last season.</strong><hr></blockquote>

he started doing it when we were on that bad run last season

at the start he said he agreed with bestie on what a great buy he had been so far(after about 10 games) then he changed it along with most of the press

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by RUDDY:
<strong>

he started doing it when we were on that bad run last season

at the start he said he agreed with bestie on what a great buy he had been so far(after about 10 games) then he changed it along with most of the press</strong><hr></blockquote>

what else has he been saying?

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

what else has he been saying?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bollocks!

 

[RUDDY]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

what else has he been saying?</strong><hr></blockquote>


dont think hes been on since his last outburst

shocking channel anyway

 

[giggzy]

a few reasons why we played well on the weekend:


1. their defence was shit

2. we had a lot of hunger

3. we played with width, which gave the midfield the chance to create....(basically stretched the game)

 

[WeasteDevil]

If we beat Arsenal and Liverpool and (it is possible) we are sitting pretty on top of the league, what are all these moaners going to moan about then? They will find something I'm sure.

Or will they then start saying what a master SAF is and how could anyone hav ever doubted him.

It's just like Hansen's comment - devoid of sense.

Yo-yo, yo-yo, up and down, up and down.

 

[Murt]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>The trouble with your stats Murt is that you are very selective.
You ignore the long unbeaten run of last year which was 4-4-2. Following a very shaky start to the season when it wasn't.
I still think there is a need to utilise both formations. Especially if the idea is to avoid being predictable.
And yesterday was our best PL game since God knows when. Of course 4-4-2 isn't going to work all the time - nothing does. But to stick rigidly to one up front would also be a mistake.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ive allways advocated the use of both systems, we need to ne adaptable.
Fair play to Fergie for being brave enough to try it.
My stats arnt selective, im taking every league game we lost in the last two seasons and saying which formation we had. We lost the league last season mainly in games where we started with 2 strikers.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by RUDDY:
<strong>

he started doing it when we were on that bad run last season

at the start he said he agreed with bestie on what a great buy he had been so far(after about 10 games) then he changed it along with most of the press</strong><hr></blockquote>


So he should have said Veron was not a good buy before seeing him play here?

Most people wanted him - and when it became apparent that it wasn't working in the PL, made up their own minds. If you're going to say that Stuart Pearson was influenced by the Press, you might as well say that every other person who doubts Veron's ability to play in our league has been influenced by the Press as well. That's insulting.

I don't think Veron fits in to the PL style - I wanted him to come, thought he would be like a new Cantona. What I've been influenced by is results and performances over the past season and a half.

I still think Veron is a useful member of the squad tho.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>a few reasons why we played well on the weekend:


1. their defence was shit

2. we had a lot of hunger

3. we played with width, which gave the midfield the chance to create....(basically stretched the game)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly. If Verón had been playing we could have won by more goals. Who knows? Some people like to induce things rather than deduce things.

People forget the game at SJP last year when we lost 4-3, Verón was magnificent that game and we only lost it because our defence was playing total shite.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

no need for the houlliers.

when some one says 'great' i think of vieria, zidane, ballack... etc etc.

the players you mentioned are not top notch, altho' David was in the past.. Vicente is POTENTIAL.. would you call potentially good player GREAT? i would not. Silva is better than average nothing more.

so, to asnwer you question.. no, we could not get THREE great players for the Veron fee.. however we could have bough two potentially very good players.. but that could have been an even bigger lottery..


another question.. which you didn't not answer:


teams that defend to a susceptible to a fast counter.. yet you did not explain why? </strong><hr></blockquote>
I believe in youth mate. We have a tradition of it, buying young players with great potential and coaching them into world class players is what we should be doing, and now Alex seems to have remembered to do this as he's changed the coaching staff completely in the last year or so with a Dutch, a Brazilian and a Portuguese Coach. Whether you buy them as young as Beckham, or Richardson, or Forlan and Escude, its still better to buy them as squad players and let them develop into first teamers. We're not talking immediate replacements for Beckham, Keane, Butt, Scholes although maybe Giggs (is it just you Weaste who wants to replace him or was it also you Giggzy?). Alex has said himself:
'Liverpool's main intent is to have a powerful squad, particularly when you look at their midfield, and Arsenal are a big, strong side, too. They have come along, and particularly in Gerard Houllier's case, and gone 'bang' and just rebuilt their teams.

'We tend to tweak the team rather than have an overhaul. We have built on the great nucleus of players like Beckham, Butt, Giggs and Keane by adding one or two whereas Gerard Houllier came in and even this summer brought in four players.

'That is what you are seeing, the building of two teams here with Arsenal and Liverpool.'

He seems to be trying to correct this by going after players such as:
"We'd like to have added maybe one or two more players during the summer. We tried very hard to get the boy from Rennes, Escude, and we tried hard to get the boy Burdisso from Boca Juniors but they weren't to be."

And Forlan was a similar gamble, one I think will pay off. Better than spending £28m or so on one player.

I take it then that you'd be pissed off if we did sell Veron for Davids plus cash?

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Ive allways advocated the use of both systems, we need to ne adaptable.
Fair play to Fergie for being brave enough to try it.
My stats arnt selective, im taking every league game we lost in the last two seasons and saying which formation we had. We lost the league last season mainly in games where we started with 2 strikers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And our best performances have in the main come from 4-4-2. A lot of those games you refer to started with one striker, but we won them when we changed to two.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>Giggs (is it just you Weaste who wants to replace him or was it also you Giggzy?).</strong><hr></blockquote>

I believe that you also have expressed that opinion Neil.

Difference is, I've never advocated the sale of Giggs on his recent performances. Rather, on his age and the fact that he will lose his velocity.

 

[RUDDY]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


So he should have said Veron was not a good buy before seeing him play here?

</strong><hr></blockquote>

no after 10 games of last season when he looked class he said what a great buy he was as did bestie

then when we were going through our poor patch he changed his mind, and if veron is amazing this season he will most likley change it back

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

Yes I do, none of them are worthy of a first team starting place, and never will be.

Are you seriously comparing them to the Giggs, Butt, Scholes, Beckham, Gillespie, Gary Neville, and Phil Neville generation?

The great things to recently come out of our youth system are Brown and O'Shea. Nothing more.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
How the feck would you know? All those I mentioned are quite comparable to the FA Youth Cup winning side, at that age. Its about giving them the games and good coaching, they've got the talent.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by RUDDY:
<strong>

no after 10 games of last season when he looked class he said what a great buy he was as did bestie

then when we were going through our poor patch he changed his mind, and if veron is amazing this season he will most likley change it back</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />

Well obviously. That's called giving credit when it's due. And vice-versa. As opposed to blind faith.

 

[RUDDY]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
How the feck would you know? All those I mentioned are quite comparable to the FA Youth Cup winning side, at that age. Its about giving them the games and good coaching, they've got the talent.</strong><hr></blockquote>

none of the youth team apart from richardson is anything on that team

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
I believe in youth mate. We have a tradition of it, buying young players with great potential and coaching them into world class players is what we should be doing, and now Alex seems to have remembered to do this as he's changed the coaching staff completely in the last year or so with a Dutch, a Brazilian and a Portuguese Coach. Whether you buy them as young as Beckham, or Richardson, or Forlan and Escude, its still better to buy them as squad players and let them develop into first teamers. We're not talking immediate replacements for Beckham, Keane, Butt, Scholes although maybe Giggs (is it just you Weaste who wants to replace him or was it also you Giggzy?). Alex has said himself:
'Liverpool's main intent is to have a powerful squad, particularly when you look at their midfield, and Arsenal are a big, strong side, too. They have come along, and particularly in Gerard Houllier's case, and gone 'bang' and just rebuilt their teams.

'We tend to tweak the team rather than have an overhaul. We have built on the great nucleus of players like Beckham, Butt, Giggs and Keane by adding one or two whereas Gerard Houllier came in and even this summer brought in four players.

'That is what you are seeing, the building of two teams here with Arsenal and Liverpool.'

He seems to be trying to correct this by going after players such as:
"We'd like to have added maybe one or two more players during the summer. We tried very hard to get the boy from Rennes, Escude, and we tried hard to get the boy Burdisso from Boca Juniors but they weren't to be."

And Forlan was a similar gamble, one I think will pay off. Better than spending £28m or so on one player.

I take it then that you'd be pissed off if we did sell Veron for Davids plus cash?</strong><hr></blockquote>


I agree with youth hence i'd love us to buy Joaquin, Vicente, Cisse, RVDV, D'Allesandro...none of them will come cheap..but they could gel and become great for us.. if i had my way, i'd love to see 9 manc lads, with a couple of foreign stars thrown into the team... who knows it may happen one day.

But sometimes youth can be a bigger gamble!!! altho promoting players that have come through the ranks isn't that big a risk...but have we got the talent in our youth set up?


as for davids.. i'd rather we get cash, if we do indeed sell Seba. Davids is 31(?) and probably come here for a last big pay day.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
How the feck would you know? All those I mentioned are quite comparable to the FA Youth Cup winning side, at that age. Its about giving them the games and good coaching, they've got the talent.</strong><hr></blockquote>

More than you obviously!

If you want to compare Chadwick to Beckham, then go ahead, make yourself a laughing stock. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

 

[RUDDY]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

<img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />

Well obviously. That's called giving credit when it's due. And vice-versa. As opposed to blind faith.</strong><hr></blockquote>

no thats being a follower insted of having a mind of your own

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by RUDDY:
<strong>

no after 10 games of last season when he looked class he said what a great buy he was as did bestie

then when we were going through our poor patch he changed his mind, and if veron is amazing this season he will most likley change it back</strong><hr></blockquote>
Both Veron and Alex have talked about how poorly he's played, blaming it on his Achilles, and now Veron saying its because he only wants to play the ricky passes. Its acknowledged by them that he performs better in the CL than the EPL, and its no surprise that we were better on Saturday without him. I'd be very shocked if he isn't sold in the Summer or earlier.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
How the feck would you know? All those I mentioned are quite comparable to the FA Youth Cup winning side, at that age. Its about giving them the games and good coaching, they've got the talent.</strong><hr></blockquote>


actually, that team which contained nevilles, scholes, becks, butt and co.. was special.

i can recall watching them playing a youth tournament in Italy, (some sort of euro cup for kids) and they lost in the final to Juve..but we were easily the best team in the comp... even the neutrals couldn't praise the kids high enough!

wonder if we'll see the same crop again?

 

[RUDDY]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Both Veron and Alex have talked about how poorly he's played, blaming it on his Achilles, and now Veron saying its because he only wants to play the ricky passes. Its acknowledged by them that he performs better in the CL than the EPL, and its no surprise that we were better on Saturday without him. I'd be very shocked if he isn't sold in the Summer or earlier.</strong><hr></blockquote>

where have i argued anything on that point?

im saying pearson changes his mind like the weather

how many times have we seen what he says written in the press

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by RUDDY:
<strong>

no thats being a follower insted of having a mind of your own</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh right. I call it not being afraid to say when something isn't right as opposed to never admitting there's a problem. Some might say that those who support Veron are the followers and those who aren't too sure have a mind of their own. I know I don't draw my opinions from the Press.

Definitely split down the middle here.

 

[WeasteDevil]

And Neil, don't even go down the road of comparing Richardson to Giggs, as Giggs is the one in a million player that cannot be touched. There has not been a left winger of his class for almost a decade, and Overmars was never in his class. Pires is close to Giggs at his best, but Richardson is not.

If SAF thought that any of our youth players were good enough, then he would play them. Giggs was played!

 

[RUDDY]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Oh right. I call it not being afraid to say when something isn't right as opposed to never admitting there's a problem. Some might say that those who support Veron are the followers and those who aren't too sure have a mind of their own. I know I don't draw my opinions from the Press.

Definitely split down the middle here.</strong><hr></blockquote>


im not defending veron or having a pop at him

what im saying is what he says on MUTV is hardly huge news it already been said in the press about 442,veron,fergie staying to long.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

More than you obviously!

If you want to compare Chadwick to Beckham, then go ahead, make yourself a laughing stock. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Mads Timm has the potential to be as good as Scholes, he's a phenomenal talent for that age. Richardson is already being used by Alex and depending on how tall and physical he ends up when he's older, he could be an incredible player. Chadwick will be a good buy by Everton, in a few years he'll have put on more weight and had some real experience, and will be a better player than Greening, probably have as good a career as Gillespie. Davis has made the bench recently after a very successful loan spell, like Beckham's loan at a similar age. Nardiello's had a couple of chances recently and has shown himself to be a natural goalscorer, as is Heath at a younger age. You'll see more and more of all these players (except Chadwick), so get used to it.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by RUDDY:
<strong>


im not defending veron or having a pop at him

what im saying is what he says on MUTV is hardly huge news it already been said in the press about 442,veron,fergie staying to long.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No-one on MUTV has said Fergie has stayed too long. Apart from a few supporters, and the presenters/guests haven't agreed with them.

 

[RUDDY]

Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>And Neil, don't even go down the road of comparing Richardson to Giggs, as Giggs is the one in a million player that cannot be touched. There has not been a left winger of his class for almost a decade, and Overmars was never in his class. Pires is close to Giggs at his best, but Richardson is not.

If SAF thought that any of our youth players were good enough, then he would play them. Giggs was played!</strong><hr></blockquote>


or they would have even been sold if the youngsters were good enough like the last bunch

 

[giggzy]

and neil:

we also have a tradition of breaking transfer fee records..

have u forgot.....


robbo
keano
pallister
stam(most expensive defender at the time)
Cole
Law
Rio
even meredith sp?

list goes on.....

 

[WeasteDevil]

Maybe Neil should provide us with one of these expert analyses he's so proud of by comparing Chadwick to Beckham and Richardson to Giggs.

How about it Neil, it would make interesting reading. <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />

Come on Neil, Analyse.