The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[Wibble]

I am scheduled to get vaccinated on 25th March. I have hypothyroidism. Do you think it's safe for me to get vaccinated?
I still don't know what vaccine I get from. Probably Sinovac.

My understanding is that hpothyrodism isn't a reason not have any vaccine (to date) but make sure you ask your doctor in case there is an issue.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Have there been any incidents with the AZ vaccine in the countries that have been rolling it out at the highest rate? I've only heard of it occurring in places that have been painfully slow in administering vaccines on a national level.

This obviously gives rise to multiple far-flung interpretations, and without wanting to delve too deeply into the political incentives certain places have to discredit certain solutions, could someone either clarify/point me towards a viable source for the reasons behind this?

As with many people in the UK, I've had the AZ jab - and know many people who have - and haven't come across anyone whose experienced anything other than a sore arm/24-hour body chills.

It's hard not to be somewhat sceptical of the reaction from certain European countries when they have found themselves seriously lagging compared to other developed states in regards to purchasing/rolling out the vaccine.

Yes. It’s been suspended in Denmark for four days now. And Denmark has been vaccinating its population quicker than any other EU country.

Fairly sure Norway is also well ahead of the curve and they’re at the centre of this latest issue, as it was their regulator that kicked off the most recent investigation.

If you want a viable source, theNorwegian regulators website is in English.

 

[Buster15]

And they will be going again in no time. I'd have it tomorrow without a second through. The comparative risk is so massively less as to make it a no brainer. Plus it protects others which is even more important.

Totally agree with you. I have had my first Oxford/AZ vaccine and have absolutely no concerns about having the second.
Nothing wrong with countries being careful. But based on the probability of risk, they would be far better to concentrate on delivering their vaccine programme as quickly as possible. And that includes the AZ version.

 

[jojojo]

Are these blood clots that have caused deaths? Or how have they known this?

It's very difficult territory and often it's only the big statistics or the small clusters that can really be analysed.

In terms of the big statistics - deaths from blood clots (or platelet loss) per vaccinated million are no different to what you'd expect in the same group (without covid or the vaccine).

In terms of the clusters, there's a hint of something else - particularly in the Norway data. They'll now dive back into those cases, and any other adverse responses that mention platelets or clots. They have to know if something non-vaccine related (or quasi vaccine related like the syringes) links those cases or if something else links those people - like a particular medication they take or pre-vaccination symptom/illness they've had.

At the end of the review they may have something to warn us about. It's what you do while you're waiting for that, that seems to be what different regulators are arguing over.

Incidentally if anyone wants to see the MHRA adverse reactions report it's at:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...19_AstraZeneca_Vaccine_Analysis_Print__2_.pdf

More readable (and helpful!) is the summary page that offers a bit of context, including a figure of 9.7m AZ jabs delivered by that point:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...irus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Totally agree with you. I have had my first Oxford/AZ vaccine and have absolutely no concerns about having the second.
Nothing wrong with countries being careful. But based on the probability of risk, they would be far better to concentrate on delivering their vaccine programme as quickly as possible. And that includes the AZ version.

With respect, people who are better qualified than you at assessing risk have decided that it’s better to hold off on using this specific vaccine until they have fully investigated these latest issues. The fact there are other vaccines available makes this a slightly easier decision. If this was the one and only vaccine available I think they would have been less likely to pause this one.

 

[RobinLFC]

With respect, people who are better qualified than you at assessing risk have decided that it’s better to hold off on using this specific vaccine until they have fully investigated these latest issues. The fact there are other vaccines available makes this a slightly easier decision. If this was the one and only vaccine available I think they would have been less likely to pause this one.

The WHO, EMA and most countries have decided that it's not necessary to hold off on using that vaccine though.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The WHO, EMA and most countries have decided that it's not necessary to hold off on using that vaccine though.

Each country needs to do what it thinks is best. Availability of alternatives will be a big factor. A blanket pause all over the world could really mess up some countries that don’t have alternatives.

 

[11101]

Have there been any incidents with the AZ vaccine in the countries that have been rolling it out at the highest rate? I've only heard of it occurring in places that have been painfully slow in administering vaccines on a national level.

Incidents have been confined to specific batches. The UK hasn't used those, but it's important to understand what the issue might be in case it's a risk for other batches too.

There is likely a little bit of politicking going on too. AZ has again cut deliveries to Europe whilst Pfizer is delivering more than expected and J&J is now on the scene saying all the right things.

 

[groovyalbert]

Incidents have been confined to specific batches. The UK hasn't used those, but it's important to understand what the issue might be in case it's a risk for other batches too.

There is likely a little bit of politicking going on too. AZ has again cut deliveries to Europe whilst Pfizer is delivering more than expected and J&J is now on the scene saying all the right things.

Yeah, this is what I expected. Given the high level of scepticism towards the vaccine in Europe, maybe demonising one in order to encourage engagement with others is their "hearts and minds" tactic. AKA "you're right to be sceptical, but look at the good solutions we have", in the same breath sticking it in further to AZ for not hitting supply targets.

 

[11101]

Yeah, this is what I expected. Given the high level of scepticism towards the vaccine in Europe, maybe demonising one in order to encourage engagement with others is their "hearts and minds" tactic. AKA "you're right to be sceptical, but look at the good solutions we have", in the same breath sticking it in further to AZ for not hitting supply targets.

I don't think the paused rollouts is political. It's just good practice. The media coverage on the other hand likely is.

Like i said upthread, until fairly recently mass vaccination was not a thing in much of Europe the way it is in the UK and US. We were conditioned from a kid to get all your vaccinations done and keep them up to date. That didn't happen in Europe.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thinking about the different approaches by different regulators a lot will depend on how this vaccine is being used. In Ireland the elderly (most at risk from covid) are only getting Pfizer/Moderna so an AZ pause won’t affect them.

Younger people are much less at risk from the virus so a pause for a week or so is very unlikely to cost any lives and the risk/benefit for this age group means extreme caution is a sensible approach. The other cohort having to wait are young people with co-morbid conditions. And they might be more vulnerable to these clotting disorders, if underlying illness or interaction with other meds is the issue.

In terms of herd immunity that’s not going to happen until Q3 anyway when everywhere will be absolutely awash with vaccines, so a few thousand people missing out this week won’t mean much in the grand scheme of things, when they’re aiming to vaccinate half a million/week over the summer.

 

[groovyalbert]

I don't think the paused rollouts is political. It's just good practice. The media coverage on the other hand likely is.

Like i said upthread, until fairly recently mass vaccination was not a thing in much of Europe the way it is in the UK and US. We were conditioned from a kid to get all your vaccinations done and keep them up to date. That didn't happen in Europe.

Just reading over my comments, and they read as though I'm intentionally driving the "politicised" line of thinking above the reasonable scientific/medical intentions. I don't mean it to read that way, if there's any doubt over a specific batch, countries are absolutely right in acting the way they have.

As you said, any politicking is in fallout to the reasonable means in acting.

Really interesting the point you made regarding the cultural attitudes towards vaccinations, and one I wasn't really aware of. Having grown up in the States and then the UK, I've always held the attitude that vaccines have only ever enabled society to overcome the greatest medical threats they've faced.

But then again, and this is within a specific UK context, having something like the NHS is perhaps key to me thinking this way. One of the great things about the NHS is that it makes you see health care as a public service/in the interest primarily of recipients. In a more overtly cynical/profit-driven framework, I think I'd be likely to have a far more disparaging viewpoint.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

Report of another incident with AZ and blood clot in Norway, also another healthcare worker.

And now news coming out saying one of the original three healthcare workers who were hospitalized with blood clot after taking the AZ vaccine has just died. Still awaiting confirmation if that is in correlation with the vaccine.

 

[balaks]

Report of another incident with AZ and blood clot in Norway, also another healthcare worker.

And now news coming out saying one of the original three healthcare workers who were hospitalized with blood clot after taking the AZ vaccine has just died. Still awaiting confirmation if that is in correlation with the vaccine.

Still no evidence yet whether there is a definitive link to the vaccine.

 

[Brwned]

People's desperation for the vaccine to work as intended is causing them to get dangerously defensive about possible concerns. Which is exactly what vaccine hesitant people worried about to begin with, and were ridiculed for: we desperately need it to work so we're willing to overlook some concerns for the greater good. Individuals are free to make that personal choice but it's not a remotely appropriate expectation of society as a whole.

Strange to see people move the goal-posts from "it is perfectly safe" to "it is almost definitely perfectly safe, but even if it isn't, the benefits outweigh the risks" without any acknowledgement of how fundamentally different those two positions are.

 

[Penna]

I am scheduled to get vaccinated on 25th March. I have hypothyroidism. Do you think it's safe for me to get vaccinated?
I still don't know what vaccine I get from. Probably Sinovac.

My sister and I have the same condition, she has seen a specialist who said it's not a contraindication. If you're concerned, you should raise it when you're called for vaccination.

 

[Buster15]

With respect, people who are better qualified than you at assessing risk have decided that it’s better to hold off on using this specific vaccine until they have fully investigated these latest issues. The fact there are other vaccines available makes this a slightly easier decision. If this was the one and only vaccine available I think they would have been less likely to pause this one.

And with respect to you, I am perfectly capable of understanding and assessing the risks relevant to me.
I have read the available information and am not concerned about having the second vaccine.
And unless the NHS decides otherwise, I will go ahead with it.

 

[Balljy]

I don't think the paused rollouts is political. It's just good practice. The media coverage on the other hand likely is.

Like i said upthread, until fairly recently mass vaccination was not a thing in much of Europe the way it is in the UK and US. We were conditioned from a kid to get all your vaccinations done and keep them up to date. That didn't happen in Europe.

That's interesting, I pretty much treat early vaccinations as something that is done as a matter of course in early school now. Does that mean the likes of measles etc is still a problem in parts of Europe?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

People's desperation for the vaccine to work as intended is causing them to get dangerously defensive about possible concerns. Which is exactly what vaccine hesitant people worried about to begin with, and were ridiculed for: we desperately need it to work so we're willing to overlook some concerns for the greater good. Individuals are free to make that personal choice but it's not a remotely appropriate expectation of society as a whole.

Strange to see people move the goal-posts from "it is perfectly safe" to "it is almost definitely perfectly safe, but even if it isn't, the benefits outweigh the risks" without any acknowledgement of how fundamentally different those two positions are.

As I said earlier. This is a real Catch 22. What’s happening is eminently sensible. Wanting to be absolute certain there’s nothing to worry about with this cluster of cases before exposing anyone else to a potential risk. Which is all the more important in younger cohorts, whose risk of a poor outcome from covid is relatively low.

The take home message here should be “it’s reassuring to see how closely safety is being monitored, now I feel more confident when it’s my turn for the jab”. Unfortunately the opposite might be happening. In part because people feel rattled by the reality of needing to monitor safety closely after previously being told all vaccines are completely safe and any concerns or worries at all are stupid.

 

[talking robot]

People love to be afraid of vaccines...

"Blood clots can occur naturally and are not uncommon. As of 10 March, there were 30 reports of clots among almost five million people given the vaccine across Europe - less than the number that might be expected to happen naturally."

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55302595

 

[11101]

That's interesting, I pretty much treat early vaccinations as something that is done as a matter of course in early school now. Does that mean the likes of measles etc is still a problem in parts of Europe?

There are isolated measles outbreaks yes. It has improved a lot but until quite recently lots of children's vaccinations weren't mandatory, here in Italy they never had a vaccine booklet like we had as kids growing up in the UK.

People love to be afraid of vaccines...

"Blood clots can occur naturally and are not uncommon. As of 10 March, there were 30 reports of clots among almost five million people given the vaccine across Europe - less than the number that might be expected to happen naturally."

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55302595

If it's 30 reports across 5 million then it's unlikely to be of concern. If it's 30 reports from a batch of 50, it's of massive concern. Many of these reports are coming from specific batches and we need to understand the reason why, if there is one. National regulators are not pausing vaccine rollouts for fun...

 

[OleBoiii]

A perfectly healthy woman in her 40's in Norway just died from blood clots. She took the AZ vaccine last week(?).

How many healthy people in their 40's die from blood clots usually? I would think that it's extremely rare.

 

[Cardboard elk]

Germany are now pausing as well after findings in reports, unclear yet what those findings are.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

A perfectly healthy woman in her 40's in Norway just died from blood clots. She took the AZ vaccine last week(?).

How many healthy people in their 40's die from blood clots usually? I would think that it's extremely rare.

It is extremely rare but it happens.

In any given week you probably get several such incidents in a country as large as Norway. The unknown here is what % of those incidents followed recent vaccination? Are there predisposing factors in those individuals that might increase their risk of clots? etc. etc.

And those are the sort of details they’ll be looking into right now.

 

[OleBoiii]

In any given week you probably get several such incidents in a country as large as Norway. The unknown here is what % of those incidents followed recent vaccination? Are there predisposing factors in those individuals that might increase their risk of clots? etc. etc.

What makes it scarier is that the person who died was a nurse. She'd probably be hyper-aware of warning signs. And according to the newspaper she quickly got the best possible care at the best hospital.

2 other nurses(in their 60's I think) are also hospitalised.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Sara Watle, a senior physician at the Norwegian Institute of Public Health and one of those who made the decision, said the vaccine had been paused while more information is gathered.

Speaking to BBC Radio 4’s World at One programme she said: “Because the situation was a bit unclear at the time we decided to put the AstraZeneca vaccine on pause, in order to get more of an overview of what was actually going on with these cases.”

She confirmed that several people in Norway had become very ill days after receiving AstraZeneca jabs, including one person who died of an intracerebral haemorrhage. But she added: “We have not concluded a causal relationship.”

She said: “The cases have been young individuals who approximately five to 10 days after vaccination with AstraZeneca vaccine have gotten the symptoms of thromboembolic events, bleedings, also low platelet counts, and they have been in a really bad condition. So, so we’re looking at very rare events that all came at the same time in our country.”

When it was pointed out that blood clotting does occur normally, Watle said: “Yes, they absolutely do and that’s why we need to look more into these events and also look at our background rates in our country in order to get an overview of what this actually is representing.”

Some more context on the Norwegian decision.

 

[Cardboard elk]

Common to these patients is that they have had a reduced number of blood platelets. Blood clots and subsequent brain haemorrhages are a rare condition. The patients are also younger.

 

[711]

People's desperation for the vaccine to work as intended is causing them to get dangerously defensive about possible concerns. Which is exactly what vaccine hesitant people worried about to begin with, and were ridiculed for: we desperately need it to work so we're willing to overlook some concerns for the greater good. Individuals are free to make that personal choice but it's not a remotely appropriate expectation of society as a whole.

Strange to see people move the goal-posts from "it is perfectly safe" to "it is almost definitely perfectly safe, but even if it isn't, the benefits outweigh the risks" without any acknowledgement of how fundamentally different those two positions are.

I don't think people have been saying that personally, but I suppose it depends what you read.

 

[redshaw]

Another batch stopped

Italy prosecutors seize batch of AstraZeneca vaccine after death of man | Reuters

" On Sunday Piedmont’s regional government suspended use of the batch, ABV5811, after Sandro Tognatti, a 57-year-old music teacher, fell ill and died in circumstances that have not yet been clarified.


Tognatti had his shot on Saturday afternoon, his wife told Italian newspapers. He developed a high temperature during the night and felt ill again on Sunday morning. An ambulance was called, but he died shortly afterwards.

“It is therefore important to ensure that continued administration of the drug throughout the country does not lead to further consequences (harmful or fatal) ... until we are completely sure that (Tognatti’s) death cannot be attributed to the above-mentioned inoculation,” prosecutor Teresa Angela Camelio said in a statement."

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

Unfortunately I don't really know how they are going to look at the cases of blood clots and ever be able to determine causation. It's all very messed up unfortunately. I don't think that there is smoke without a fire but it also makes no sense that the UK has had an insane number of AZ vaccines given and there has been no real increase in cases of clots seen

 

[zing]

These reports make me extremely nervous because my parents had the AZ jab last week and both are in blood thinners, and my mother due to a history of strokes.

 

[Mickeza]

Thailand have just cleared its use after initially suspending it. Hopefully all this doesn’t stop people coming forward for their appointments in the U.K. - we’ve had a big increase in supply and are now due to complete over 50s by Easter. 48 clotting incidents in 11m doses given here which is similar to the rate seen with Pfizer. It’s really strange such a relative high number have been seen in such a short period of time in Norway. Any theories as to why that may be? The issue I see is I don’t know how they can possibly finish investigating and rule the vaccine in/out of potentially causing it within a few days.

 

[RobinLFC]

Thailand have just cleared its use after initially suspending it. Hopefully all this doesn’t stop people coming forward for their appointments in the U.K. - we’ve had a big increase in supply and are now due to complete over 50s by Easter. 48 clotting incidents in 11m doses given here which is similar to the rate seen with Pfizer. It’s really strange such a relative high number have been seen in such a short period of time in Norway. Any theories as to why that may be? The issue I see is I don’t know how they can possibly finish investigating and rule the vaccine in/out of potentially causing it within a few days.

My assumption was that it's related to a few "bad" batches which were handed out and not necessarily the entire vaccine, but I don't know enough about the production process to know if that's even possible or not.

No reports in Belgium either for what it's worth but I think Italy has had some suspect cases too by now.

My grandparents of 89 and 90 are due to have the AZ vaccine tomorrow. Not really afraid but it's not super reassuring either.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thailand have just cleared its use after initially suspending it. Hopefully all this doesn’t stop people coming forward for their appointments in the U.K. - we’ve had a big increase in supply and are now due to complete over 50s by Easter. 48 clotting incidents in 11m doses given here which is similar to the rate seen with Pfizer. It’s really strange such a relative high number have been seen in such a short period of time in Norway. Any theories as to why that may be? The issue I see is I don’t know how they can possibly finish investigating and rule the vaccine in/out of potentially causing it within a few days.

These things can be investigated fairly thoroughly in a few days. Post mortems can help. Discovering some other possible cause for clots/low platelets in these people would be the quickest way to exonerate the vaccine.

Good news about Thailand. That will give some reassurance to other regulators. These things have a tendency to create peer pressure.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Another batch stopped

Italy prosecutors seize batch of AstraZeneca vaccine after death of man | Reuters

" On Sunday Piedmont’s regional government suspended use of the batch, ABV5811, after Sandro Tognatti, a 57-year-old music teacher, fell ill and died in circumstances that have not yet been clarified.


Tognatti had his shot on Saturday afternoon, his wife told Italian newspapers. He developed a high temperature during the night and felt ill again on Sunday morning. An ambulance was called, but he died shortly afterwards.

“It is therefore important to ensure that continued administration of the drug throughout the country does not lead to further consequences (harmful or fatal) ... until we are completely sure that (Tognatti’s) death cannot be attributed to the above-mentioned inoculation,” prosecutor Teresa Angela Camelio said in a statement."

Now this seems completely over the top.

 

[Dumbstar]

Thailand have just cleared its use after initially suspending it. Hopefully all this doesn’t stop people coming forward for their appointments in the U.K. - we’ve had a big increase in supply and are now due to complete over 50s by Easter. 48 clotting incidents in 11m doses given here which is similar to the rate seen with Pfizer. It’s really strange such a relative high number have been seen in such a short period of time in Norway. Any theories as to why that may be? The issue I see is I don’t know how they can possibly finish investigating and rule the vaccine in/out of potentially causing it within a few days.

Interesting. I'm going to head over to the local vaccination area in my part of London at 5pm (end of shift) to see if I can get vaccinated on any unused jabs. If this news is gathering momentum seems like I might get lucky.

My mum got the AZ last month. For the past few years she has been diagnosed with fatty liver and compromised platelet production. She's fine, didn't even feel a little ill.

 

[esmufc07]

Some more context on the Norwegian decision.

already had my anti-vax brother messaging me about this, it’s like they’re happy about the news. Twitter is full of it today aswell.

 

[Wolverine]

Awful day today in terms of AZ cancellations from concerned patients and family members after all the news recently.

Incidentally my dad called me from canada yesterday as he was due the AZ vaccine. I told him to go ahead. And have mentioned same to my patients.
Its a tough one because I dont know if this is a batch/contamination issue but essentially came to the decision after speaking to wife's best friend who is a haematology registrar and works in DVT/pulmonary embolism first episode clinics. She said that their incidence for clots recently after vaccination if anything has gone down, certainly not increase.
Also a friend who works as an ED consultant, asked him about any more than usual amount of pulmonary emboli, deep vein thrombosis, blood hemorrhages coming through the door and he said no.

Don't forget we do have a scheme for reporting adverse events. And all medics (GPs but also outpatients) report pretty much anything that could be termed an adverse effect post-vaccination via the MHRA's Yellow Card Scheme (a huge pain but necessary) so that if there is anything sinister so we can spot trends which is available below. Looked at that, and when you compare it to sheer number of vaccines given vs chance of those events occurring without vaccines, I just wasn't convinced. And its all available to view here anyone interested
https://assets.publishing.service.g...VID-19_AstraZeneca_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf

 

[NinjaFletch]

already had my anti-vax brother messaging me about this, it’s like they’re happy about the news. Twitter is full of it today aswell.

It's weird. I posted that because I think when you hear her comments it makes everything seem mundane and normal (as indeed it is). Hell, I think it's actually reassuring.

And yet due diligence and normal scientific process is being treated as cause célèbre by people who at other times try and act like their concerns are rooted in scientific rationalism.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Awful day today in terms of AZ cancellations from concerned patients and family members after all the news recently.

Incidentally my dad called me from canada yesterday as he was due the AZ vaccine. I told him to go ahead. And have mentioned same to my patients.
Its a tough one because I dont know if this is a batch/contamination issue but essentially came to the decision after speaking to wife's best friend who is a haematology registrar and works in DVT/pulmonary embolism first episode clinics. She said that their incidence for clots recently after vaccination if anything has gone down, certainly not increase.
Also a friend who works as an ED consultant, asked him about any more than usual amount of pulmonary emboli, deep vein thrombosis, blood hemorrhages coming through the door and he said no.

Don't forget we do have a scheme for reporting adverse events. And all medics (GPs but also outpatients) report pretty much anything that could be termed an adverse effect post-vaccination via the MHRA's Yellow Card Scheme (a huge pain but necessary) so that if there is anything sinister so we can spot trends which is available below. Looked at that, and when you compare it to sheer number of vaccines given vs chance of those events occurring without vaccines, I just wasn't convinced. And its all available to view here anyone interested
https://assets.publishing.service.g...VID-19_AstraZeneca_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf

It does seem likely that these are either unrelated (just a huge coincidence) or a batch-specific issue. Either way the caution is understandable. It fecking sucks but it also demonstrates that pharmacovigilance is working the way it is supposed to.