The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[Brwned]

I think years of anti-vaccine propaganda has put doubt in peoples minds about vaccine safety. Add that to the speed at which the vaccines were developed, and the fact that seemingly a lot of people aren’t bothered about catching covid.

Seems mad to me that someone would rather catch the virus than get a vaccine that’s passed it’s safety trials.

I'd add to that two other factors: a growing suspicion of experts, and a pervasive distrust of bug pharma. I actually think if people in the industry tackle those two issues head on then the other factors become marginal and for most people disappear.

Most people who express scepticism about the vaccine now mostly follow that up with "but I'll take a careful look at the numbers when they're released" and "I won't be getting mine for a while anyway so I expect it'll all work itself out by then". It's mostly signalling that they're not just going to jump into this head first, which is more theoretical than anything because the public health regulators wouldn't allow them to anyway.

At the end of the day all we've really seen so far is limited press releases and media excitement. A few experts have said this is amazing news but there has been no rigorous analysis from independent experts, very little discussion about how this all worked for a layman's perspective, etc. That's not a criticism of how it has been released, just a recognition that this is early days and it hasn't gone through all of the normal steps yet that reassure a lot of folks. Some people are just naturally cautious and expressing that under circumstances they're not entirely clear on yet.

I'm pretty sure most of that will sort itself out and a lot of the discussion will be academic. It's just the case that a lot of people have time for academic discussions right now, and after almost a year of this, people are wary of getting carried away with anything!

 

[utdalltheway]

I don't think that's a thing that is real.

I would hope not either, of course.

When there's very large money at stake I wouldn't put it past the large pharmas, thru the government(s), to slide in immunity from lawsuits, especially here in the US.

 

[nimic]

I would hope not either, of course.

When there's very large money at stake I wouldn't put it past the large pharmas, thru the government(s), to slide in immunity from lawsuits, especially here in the US.

Is it even possible to get immunity from lawsuits? That doesn't sound like something the government can do.

 

[SiRed]

They can inject untested pig jizz into my veins if it means we can get back to normal life sharpish.
How realistic is it that the roll out commences before xmas? I have read a couple of headlines but nothing more!

 

[utdalltheway]

They can inject untested pig jizz into my veins if it means we can get back to normal life sharpish.
How realistic is it that the roll out commences before xmas? I have read a couple of headlines but nothing more!

I've not heard about pre Christmas timeframes. More like March/April 2021 is what I heard for the beginning.
That said though they were producing the vaccines to be ready if they passed trials.
I think every govmnt will be a bit different as to who they give it to 1st.

 

[utdalltheway]

Is it even possible to get immunity from lawsuits? That doesn't sound like something the government can do.

Not sure..
I've no basis for my concern. And that's all it is.
Moving on.....

 

[Brwned]

They can inject untested pig jizz into my veins if it means we can get back to normal life sharpish.
How realistic is it that the roll out commences before xmas? I have read a couple of headlines but nothing more!

No chance you'll get it this year but it's likely some people in the NHS and frontline workers will get it this year, and possibly some high risk folks. But things will gradually get more normal as more of the high risk folks get vaccinated in the subsequent months. Things won't be normal until a good chunk are vaccinated but a lot of the more strict measures will be reserved only for local outbreaks as we start to contain the worst effects of it, and more individual responsibility will be passed on as the economic recovery becomes a growing priority.

 

[sammsky1]

They can inject untested pig jizz into my veins if it means we can get back to normal life sharpish.
How realistic is it that the roll out commences before xmas? I have read a couple of headlines but nothing more!

 

[passing-wind]

I personally think our idea of normal will change drastically in the years moving ahead. Especially in the infrastructure of the technology being involved through the NHS app etc I'm sure this will lead to more opportunities to monitor people. Are there any real definitive answers as to how COVID began ? seems to be very controversial / propaganda.

 

[utdalltheway]

Some info from a report I just read on the timeline, in the US at least.


Both vaccines require approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) before they can be distributed for widespread use. If the FDA allows emergency use of Moderna’s or Pfizer’s candidate, there will be limited, rationed supplies before the end of the year.

Both vaccines require people to get two shots, several weeks apart. U.S. officials said they hope to have about 20 million Moderna doses and another 20 million doses of the vaccine made by Pfizer and its German partner BioNTech to use in late December.

CLICK HERE FOR FULL CORONAVIRUS COVERAGE

Moderna CEO Stephane Bancel reiterated this timeline during an appearance on Fox Business’ "Mornings with Maria" on Monday, saying he is hopeful to see the vaccine get emergency approval by December. Then, by the first quarter of 2021, the vaccine could have “full approval where, you know, every American who wants a vaccine that is of 18 years of age or both can get access to a vaccine,” he told host Maria Bartiromo.

 

[utdalltheway]

Where's the russian one. And the chinese one they gave their soldiers?
They were "1st to market", supposedly.

 

[SiRed]

Cheers. Super info.

So we can expect to be using a couple by the start of 2021 and things should really pick up the pace in the 2nd half of 2021.

In the UK would we be using just 1 approved vaccine or would we have a mixture of vaccines among the population?

 

[Sarni]

Moderna’s vaccine not requiring very low temperature storing is surely bad news for Pfizer as it makes distribution cheaper and less complex thus reducing demand for Pfizer’s product. However with the initial demand promising to be massive I guess they will still be able to take many orders.

I definitely want to get myself vaccinated the moment it becomes available and accessible. Will probably need to hide this fact from my wife and family as they are all opposed to it as they reckon tests won’t have been sufficient to produce a safe vaccine (they aren’t anti-vaxxers, just not particularly trustful in this case), I would rather trust scientists at this point though. Also to piss off anti-vaxxers.

 

[hungrywing]

Some of the technical stuff. Mostly animal trial data. Broad strokes of how the Moderna vaccine development proceeded.

Maybe start around 20 minute mark and scrub through to see the data from each stage. Pre-20 minutes is mostly background on how SARS MERS research provided for a huge jump start.

 

[11101]

Cheers. Super info.

So we can expect to be using a couple by the start of 2021 and things should really pick up the pace in the 2nd half of 2021.

In the UK would we be using just 1 approved vaccine or would we have a mixture of vaccines among the population?

It will be a mixture. What you will get will depend on things like logistics and how each vaccine behaves in patients. Every country is ordering pretty much every vaccine at the moment until we know for sure which ones work best.

 

[Libano]

I would like to thank anybody willing to take these novel technology vaccines (mRNA) early on. You are the true heroes and braver than I would be.

Since longterm effects are still unknown due to accelerated trials any extra data is welcome. While European governments have decided to exempt vaccine companies from liability claims, governments themselves will take on liability, so in case things go wrong, at least you won't be left stranded.

 

[Wibble]

They can inject untested pig jizz into my veins if it means we can get back to normal life sharpish.
How realistic is it that the roll out commences before xmas? I have read a couple of headlines but nothing more!

Whatever the earliest for medicos and other atvrisk groups I think late Feb or early March will be the beginning of the public programs and even then most places will target the most at risk groups so most of us (assuming all goes well and your home country has signed up for one or more successful vaccine) will be able to get a shot between a March and the end of 2021.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I would like to thank anybody willing to take these novel technology vaccines (mRNA) early on. You are the true heroes and braver than I would be.

Since longterm effects are still unknown due to accelerated trials any extra data is welcome. While European governments have decided to exempt vaccine companies from liability claims, governments themselves will take on liability, so in case things go wrong, at least you won't be left stranded.

This is a myth. They’re not exempted from liability claims. They have the same liability as they do with every other licensed medicine. What the governments have agreed with them is that they won’t take on the additional liability they would be exposed to if they rolled out a medicine before it has a full license (it looks like these vaccines will start to be made available before the full licensing process is complete, by an “emergency use authorisation” ) By the time most people get vaccinated they are likely to be fully licensed so the liability thing will be a non-issue for the vast majority of us anyway.

 

[Libano]

This is a myth. They’re not exempted from liability claims. They have the same liability as they do with every other licensed medicine. What the governments have agreed with them is that they won’t take on the additional liability they would be exposed to if they rolled out a medicine before it has a full license (it looks like these vaccines will start to be made available before the full licensing process is complete, by an “emergency use authorisation” ) By the time most people get vaccinated they are likely to be fully licensed so the liability thing will be a non-issue.

There was a pretty big public discussion on this in the Dutch parliament and media. At least here it's not yet as clear cut as you claim. As things stand now, a lot of these deals are shrouded in secrecy.

What I hope for the sake of public trust is 100% transparency from all parties involved. People should know exactly what's in these vaccines and who is liable for what. Trust works both ways.

 

[Wibble]

I would like to thank anybody willing to take these novel technology vaccines (mRNA) early on. You are the true heroes and braver than I would be.

Since longterm effects are still unknown due to accelerated trials any extra data is welcome. While European governments have decided to exempt vaccine companies from liability claims, governments themselves will take on liability, so in case things go wrong, at least you won't be left stranded.

What a load of Tosh.

Side effects of vaccines just about universally emerge within 2 months. Post approval monitoring can revel very rare side-effects that are so rare that they require truly huge sample sizes but even then these almost always appear within 2 months of the vaccine being given. So it is virtually certain that the risk of taking an mRNA vaccine is far far smaller than the risk of not doing so especially as those with known risk factors (autoimmune issues primarily) will be given different vaccines. Those who can't take any vaccine need all of us to take it so as to get to HIT.

 

[Champ]

The AstraZeneca vaccine will be here before end of year, probably in the next few weeks (End of November/beginning of December)

This will add to the good news thankfully.

 

[Zlatan 7]

What a load of Tosh.

Side effects of vaccines just about universally emerge within 2 months. Post approval monitoring can revel very rare side-effects that are so rare that they require truly huge sample sizes but even then these almost always appear within 2 months of the vaccine being given. So it is virtually certain that the risk of taking an mRNA vaccine is far far smaller than the risk of not doing so especially as those with known risk factors (autoimmune issues primarily) will be given different vaccines. Those who can't take any vaccine need all of us to take it so as to get to HIT.

I suppose your wording such as ‘just about emerge’ and ‘virtually certain’ covers the fact there could be problems you don’t know about but could always say, well we knew there was a chance it could go wrong, that’s why I said virtually certain.

this link from 2009 shows 50% of doctors and nurses hesitant to take a rushed through vaccine with limited testing.
https://www.bmj.com/content/339/bmj.b3398/rapid-responses

and then this link shows long term side effects impacting on health and basically life. I can’t see if it says they got narcolepsy within 2 months of the vaccine.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....taff-were-told-the-swine-flu-vaccine-was-safe

I don’t think talking down to people and talking in absolutes with a slight bit of cover is a good way to go about this. There’s bound to be concerns and it shouldn’t be associated with anti vaxxers.

Although I’ll be honest, the amount of people who have mocked anti vaxxers in the past But now say oooooo I’m Not anti vax but I’m not taking this rushed vaccine is quite funny, especially when as you say vaccines such as the flu vaccine are always changing and ‘new’

 

[Libano]

What a load of Tosh.

Side effects of vaccines just about universally emerge within 2 months. Post approval monitoring can revel very rare side-effects that are so rare that they require truly huge sample sizes but even then these almost always appear within 2 months of the vaccine being given. So it is virtually certain that the risk of taking an mRNA vaccine is far far smaller than the risk of not doing so especially as those with known risk factors (autoimmune issues primarily) will be given different vaccines. Those who can't take any vaccine need all of us to take it so as to get to HIT.

Vaccine trials usually span across several years. But please, have at it. Your body, not mine.

 

[Pexbo]

Vaccine trials usually span across several years. But please, have at it. Your body, not mine.

What’s your thoughts about vaccines in general?

 

[P-Nut]

Vaccine trials usually span across several years. But please, have at it. Your body, not mine.

True, but with vastly reduced numbers so they can get enough positive cases is why they run so long.

 

[Tony Babangida]

Some of the technical stuff. Mostly animal trial data. Broad strokes of how the Moderna vaccine development proceeded.

Maybe start around 20 minute mark and scrub through to see the data from each stage. Pre-20 minutes is mostly background on how SARS MERS research provided for a huge jump start.

Thanks for that. She’s fantastic.

 

[Tony Babangida]

Vaccine trials usually span across several years. But please, have at it. Your body, not mine.

They span that long so they can find recruit enough people. Post market review (phase IV) is where extremely rare side effects are looked for. This usually lasts years after a vaccine is approved for market.

 

[stepic]

Vaccine trials usually span across several years. But please, have at it. Your body, not mine.

potentially contract covid and pass it onto the ones you love because you didn't trust BIG PHARMA, even though if they were to have issued a dud vacinne they would go bust from reputational damage alone. your body, not mine.

 

[Libano]

What’s your thoughts about vaccines in general?

When safety and efficacy have been sufficiently proven, I am not opposed to them. Transparency with regards to safety testing and full list of ingredients should be a given. Manufacturers should never be exempt from liability claims. Skin in the game is the best consumer protection there is.

 

[Libano]

potentially contract covid and pass it onto the ones you love because you didn't trust BIG PHARMA, even though if they were to have issued a dud vacinne they would go bust from reputational damage alone. your body, not mine.

Here's a misconception. Being vaccinated does not prevent you from passing the virus on. You can still be a carrier.

 

[Brwned]

Here's a misconception. Being vaccinated does not prevent you from passing the virus on. You can still be a carrier.

It doesn't necessarily prevent you from passing it on. But vaccinations can, and the people currently producing these vaccines are quite confident it will do so in significant numbers. They're still accumulating data to quantify how much, and under what conditions.

The biggest danger I see is a small number of exceptionally nervous people choosing not to get vaccinated because they're protecting their vulnerable loved ones at both ends of the age spectrum, and in making that choice they end up doing the exact opposite of what they intend to do, with devastating consequences in a few cases.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What a load of Tosh.

Side effects of vaccines just about universally emerge within 2 months. Post approval monitoring can revel very rare side-effects that are so rare that they require truly huge sample sizes but even then these almost always appear within 2 months of the vaccine being given. So it is virtually certain that the risk of taking an mRNA vaccine is far far smaller than the risk of not doing so especially as those with known risk factors (autoimmune issues primarily) will be given different vaccines. Those who can't take any vaccine need all of us to take it so as to get to HIT.

I think you need to back off on this idea of HIT. The efficacy figures we’re seeing for the vaccines are in terms of preventing people getting sick, not stopping them getting infected. I read an interview with the BioNTech head guy and he was saying he was optimistic that the 90% reduction in symptomatic illness might translate to a 50% reduction in infections.

Based on what we know about the infectivity of the virus, even injecting every person on the planet wouldn’t achieve Herd Immunity with that vaccine.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

They span that long so they can find recruit enough people. Post market review (phase IV) is where extremely rare side effects are looked for. This usually lasts years after a vaccine is approved for market.

Worth mentioning that this happens for pretty much every new drug licensed in the last decade or so. So there’s a good chance that most of us will have relatives currently taking medicines that have a safety profile which is still being studied.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

They span that long so they can find recruit enough people. Post market review (phase IV) is where extremely rare side effects are looked for. This usually lasts years after a vaccine is approved for market.

given the number of people in some of these trials, I’ve seen numbers of 60k+. Have their ever been more extensive tests?

I’d be more than happy to get a jab on day 1 that is available, although I know I’ll be some way down the list of priority.

 

[balaks]

potentially contract covid and pass it onto the ones you love because you didn't trust BIG PHARMA, even though if they were to have issued a dud vacinne they would go bust from reputational damage alone. your body, not mine.

Yeah... I don't get it either.

 

[balaks]

I wouldn't put it past them to get immunity (pardon the pun) from govmnts in order to push these trials faster than normal. Just be careful and read the fine print.

Now you are just making stuff up. That is just conspiracy nut talk right there.

 

[jojojo]

and then this link shows long term side effects impacting on health and basically life. I can’t see if it says they got narcolepsy within 2 months of the vaccine.

A narcolepsy diagnosis often takes months, and it's a diagnosis that tends to come after a lot of frustrating doctor's visits and, "you're just run down - try winding down for longer before you go to bed," etc. Pandemrix (the version involved) increased the risk of narcolepsy in kids in particular, most cases started within one month, and it looks like the rest started with two months.

Modern clinical trials look for these vaguer, more ambiguous patterns - changes in people's general health/mood - with e-diaries. I don't know how they were handled by GSK back then. At any rate a side effect emerging that quickly would be seen in the trial, if it happened to someone.

The bigger problem is that it's believed it doubled the normal narcolepsy rate (from 1:100,000 in a normal year to 1:50,000 in those who took the vaccine). Now that is beyond the number of people you normally have in a trial (though similar to the numbers involved in these covid trials) and that really wouldn't be visible until after rollout.

incidentally, in places where the swine flu did cause lots of deaths, they also had a rise in narcolepsy. So, as usual there's a calculation involved, and while we might not like the idea, it's one that sometimes trades off side-effects in otherwise healthy people against the risk of catching the disease. Hence another reason for the pattern of older adults first, kids maybe never on the covid vaccine rollout.

 

[jojojo]

What a load of Tosh.

Side effects of vaccines just about universally emerge within 2 months. Post approval monitoring can revel very rare side-effects that are so rare that they require truly huge sample sizes but even then these almost always appear within 2 months of the vaccine being given. So it is virtually certain that the risk of taking an mRNA vaccine is far far smaller than the risk of not doing so especially as those with known risk factors (autoimmune issues primarily) will be given different vaccines. Those who can't take any vaccine need all of us to take it so as to get to HIT.

We don't know if the vaccines will stop people getting infected, the trials are designed to look at covid disease not for transmissible coronavirus in the respiratory tract. The animal trials aren't convincing on that, only a couple of vaccines look like they really did much to respiratory tract virus. There's a lot more data needed before we can make assumptions like that.

 

[Zlatan 7]

A narcolepsy diagnosis often takes months, and it's a diagnosis that tends to come after a lot of frustrating doctor's visits and, "you're just run down - try winding down for longer before you go to bed," etc. Pandemrix (the version involved) increased the risk of narcolepsy in kids in particular, and the cases started within one/two months.

Modern clinical trials look for these vaguer, more ambiguous patterns - changes in people's general health/mood - with e-diaries. I don't know how they were handled by GSK back then. At any rate a side effect emerging that quickly would be seen in the trial, if it happened to someone.

The bigger problem is that it's believed it doubled the normal narcolepsy rate (from 1:100,000 in a normal year to 1:50,000 in those who took the vaccine). Now that is beyond the number of people you normally have in a trial (though similar to the numbers involved in these covid trials) and that really wouldn't be visible until after rollout.

incidentally, in places where the swine flu did cause lots of deaths, they also had a rise in narcolepsy. So, as usual there's a calculation involved, and while we might not like the idea, it's one that sometimes trades off side-effects in otherwise healthy people against the risk of catching the disease. Hence another reason for the pattern of older adults first, kids maybe never on the covid vaccine rollout.

Thanks for that. Interesting informative read.
I don’t know enough about it either way but I’m sure there’s others that are saying yes it’s perfectly fine without knowing too much either.

it’s a terrible time and the fact it’s come about at the height of Miss information, Fake news, doubting professionals and general flat earth and anti vax conspiracies adds to it all and the confusion.

I’m sure there’s risks whatever way you lean but it’s all about that balancing act and greater good.
If the vaccine doesn’t prevent carrying then the greater good argument kind of goes out of the window, so again, I’m just taking it day by day and seeing what info becomes available instead of running to the front of the queue

 

[Wibble]

I think you need to back off on this idea of HIT. The efficacy figures we’re seeing for the vaccines are in terms of preventing people getting sick, not stopping them getting infected. I read an interview with the BioNTech head guy and he was saying he was optimistic that the 90% reduction in symptomatic illness might translate to a 50% reduction in infections.

Based on what we know about the infectivity of the virus, even injecting every person on the planet wouldn’t achieve Herd Immunity with that vaccine.

HIT doesn't depend on there being sterilising immunity. If you get sick but still get immunity then mission achieved. Sterilising immunity just works a bit faster.

We can achieve HIT but if this place is anything to go by misguided selfishness will doom the UK and elsewhere to failure.